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**shum00** · August 13, 2001, 23:18

I agree with most of your alterations. From what I've seen I prefer the Civ II tech tree over the new one.
I would make a few changes to your suggestions:

I wouldn't use pottery as a pre. for math
I agree with the Civ 3 prerequisites for Construction
I would add math to your pre. of currency along with bronze working

**Kenobi** · August 14, 2001, 04:23

Re: Ancient Times: changes in causality

I must be Bizarro Ribannah because I find myself disagreeing with most of what you've suggested:

- you don't need bronze to have currency
- the alphabet is NOT a wonder: many different civilizations discovered it and you can't build it. Please just get over it!
- there is no evidence linking pottery to either mathematics or the wheel
- the plough does not require the wheel or vice versa
- the plough also did not need metal (prehistoric people used wooden plows - they weren't as good, but they worked)
- mathematics does NOT need pottery, astronomy does not need mathematics. A university is an institution of learning, it doesn't require mathematics; it requires learned people, i.e. literacy
- mythology is the study of myths, not a religious development. What you're thinking of is polytheism (i.e. "many gods")
- ceremonial burial does not lead to philosophy
- "ethics" did not spring out of mysticism, polytheism or any other religious development - it was the application of philosophy to the study of "good" and "bad" behaviour
- the mill is irrelevant in the broader scheme of things - it improved the efficiency of agricultural workers but is not essential in a Civ game

**Ribannah** · August 14, 2001, 06:53

Bizarro, could you edit your post to dump the full quote and improve readability?
I am also very curious what alternatives you have to offer, if any. My own choices are based on extensive research, much of which has been published before on this board, but I'm always willing to listen.

Note that not all causal links are purely technical, many represent a decisive incentive (such as Pottery->Mathematics). Further, techs like Currency and The Plough are placed in the tree at the time of a huge leap in their importance.

**campmajor!** · August 14, 2001, 07:06

Markos has done it for you!

Markos rules!!

**campmajor!** · August 14, 2001, 07:08

Originally posted by Ribannah
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire.

But if you walk on fire too often, you end up with no feet...

**Kenobi** · August 14, 2001, 09:54

Originally posted by Ribannah
Bizarro, could you edit your post to dump the full quote and improve readability?
I am also very curious what alternatives you have to offer, if any. My own choices are based on extensive research, much of which has been published before on this board, but I'm always willing to listen.

Note that not all causal links are purely technical, many represent a decisive incentive (such as Pottery->Mathematics). Further, techs like Currency and The Plough are placed in the tree at the time of a huge leap in their importance.

You're right: apologies for the long post and thanks to Markos for cleaning up after me!

As to alternatives, I don't have any as I think the Firaxis guys largely have it right. You put your views up explicitly inviting comment and I gave it.

Can you please explain your link between pottery and mathematics? I still fail to see how firing clay leads one to geometry, algebra etc. Likewise, the plough as a technology is pretty much covered by "irrigation" - I don't see that we need a separate tech to represent the cutting of soil.

**Ribannah** · August 14, 2001, 10:16

*

Tries walking on water for a change

*

Originally posted by Kenobi
Can you please explain your link between pottery and mathematics?

(a) stock- and therefore book-keeping;
(b) abstract thinking about content and shape of 3d objects;
(c) potters began to paint their pots with all kinds of abstract geometric shapes.

The plough as a technology is pretty much covered by "irrigation"

On the contrary, irrigation is complementary to working the (irrigated) land. Also, Irrigation is a given in 4000 BC, while effective ploughs weren't around until some time after 1 AD. Both techniques do increase agricultural production though (as do several more, such as Soil Enrichment).

**lord of the mark** · August 14, 2001, 12:40

other than a quibble about the plough (which was very important in increasing the area of cultivated land well before the iron age - i can go back and look for my sources if you want) I must say your post mainly shows that you, ribannah, have a greater concern for history than Firaxis does, or than most of the Civ community at this point. Go on battling though, if you have the will.

Lord of the Mark
"Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising, I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing, now for wrath, now for ruin, and a red nightfall"

**Dauphin** · August 14, 2001, 14:16

(a) stock- and therefore book-keeping;

Why not make double-entry bookkeeping a link to advanced mathematics then.

There are links between mathematics and many things but some are more direct and relevant than others. Based on the "links" you have given I think pottery at best is a parallel development. Mathematics found expression in pottery more than discovered due to it.

**Grumbold** · August 14, 2001, 15:24

I'm not convinced by the link between Iron Working and Construction. What sort of construction are we envisaging? The Athenian Acropolis involved no ironwork. The Romans, while being involved in the transition between bronze and iron weapons and armour, performed wondrous feats of construction with no need of iron. Their success was more down to discovering concrete, the principle of the arch and sheer determination to build to last.

**Ozymandias** · August 15, 2001, 22:47

Re: the plough et al ...

Effective plough required the invention of the yoke so a beast of burden could pull a plough without choking.

Metal of some sort is absolutely needed for currency -- and the most basic form of metalworking we get is bronze. Herodotus: "The Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coins [by Croesus ca. 550 BC]"; the beginnings of a market economy [and thereby coinage] can be traced to about 700 BC -- again we thank the Lydians, who used coins of electrum, a naturally occuring alloy of gold and silver which occurs in Anatolia. ("Currency" like the giant stone rings of the Pacific are actually status-symbolic, not monetary).

Let us also not forget the humble stirrup, without which heavy (armored) cavalry would have been impossible.

The water-wheel also significantly improved irrigation when introduced; there's also the windmill ...

Elsewhere I read a comment about chariots preceding horsebacking riding -- this would be correct, as horses were bred to their current size (the largest being destriers bred to carry the European knight). Perhaps "Horse Domestication" needs to come first (and the same for elephant's -- what's happened to the elephants??) and availabilty should be limited by making horses resources or whatever as (a particular annoyance of mine) the idea of any new world civilization developing cavalry is preposterous -- and also note that the inability to develop these would leave the Incas/Aztecs/whomevers forever in the ancient age, which is certainly historically accurate.

-Ozymandias

**Urban Ranger** · August 15, 2001, 23:14

I've said it and I'm saying it again.

Currency (specifically coinage) doesn't require the use of metals. Many cultures started with things such as seashells, coffee beans, and other things you can find.

Ribannah,

I found many of the links on your tech tree questionable. I don't see how masonry leads to mathematics, for example. The most direct root of mathematics seemed to be astronomy, specifically determining the calander for the next year. That is of utmost importance to an agrarian society.

**Ozymandias** · August 16, 2001, 02:25

I think semantics is tripping us up, or at least tripping me up, as I believe that "currency" in the tech tree is being mistakenly used as a synonym for "coinage".

You are quite correct: many objects have been used as units of exchange within a single society, typically based upon perceived ornamentation or consumption value. Yet, even though such an item might have uniform value within a society, it would be worthless to a foreigner unless it had barter value. As a very simple example, he might view your wampum as lovely trinkets but not worth trading his precious salt for, as the wampum might be worthless at his next destination.

Precious metals, being universally desireable and readily transportable, allowed different societies' (different civilizations) to engage in trade beyond barter. The old "Trade" advance seems to have disappeared -- recall that it allowed commodities to be exchanged for the game's universal currency. It seems reasonable that its equivalent be required to allow a civilization to pass from an "ancient" to a "middle" age.

So I suggest that "Currency" be renamed "Coinage" and perhaps require "Bronze Working" and "Code of Laws" as predecessors.

-O.

**Ribannah** · August 16, 2001, 03:46

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The most direct root of mathematics seemed to be astronomy, specifically determining the calander for the next year. That is of utmost importance to an agrarian society.

I think Agriculture, which (via Irrigation) leads to The Calendar, is already a prerequisite for Mathematics. But that's a given in Civ3.
It isn't in my complete technology tree, but there Agriculture leads to Pottery, so having it as a prerequisite for Mathematics would be superfluous.
I also have The Calendar (wonder: Stonehenge) as a PREREQ for Astronomy.
The early Calendars were simply based on the seasons and the moon, which doesn't qualify as Astronomy IMHO. But they were an incentive for the discovery of Astronomy, which became feasible only AFTER Mathematics. Then it did lead to better calendars, but the impact of the early calendars is already too large to ignore.

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Ancient Times: changes in causality

Ancient Times: changes in causality

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