The Definition of "Fun": Understanding Our Differences About Civ3

[Trifna]

I understand u

Hi Yin.

I kind of see things with the same eye for many things you wrote here. Personnally, my fun about Civ III is also mental chalenge... It's to build a History simulation in some kind and to see how it works. I'm kind of getting out of video games, though. For the reasons you mention. I prefer making fun about some things that not only are fun, but also useful and challenging. But I do, for the moment, keep a few games to play, which are mentaly challenging and many ways, and with some special social aspect.

Well cya. I gotta go make some maths, since I went on my computer all day or almost. I think that happiness isn't in playing 96 hours non-stop (except a little of sleep), which I guess I've allready done. It's to gain a balanced style of life. By playing more and more, I'm only playing more by hoping this fun that I have with a LITTLE of playing after some work will come back. And it's also to not wanting to put efforts, which are hard when we don't make fun in something that demands efforts. Like I said, I'm gonna go make some fun with my maths


PS: But I still consider some mentally challenging game as giving something to me. Little doses of Rogue Spear (a slow enough/not rushing fast-paced shooter), Myst-Riven-Exile... these type are the two last. Annother one would be one giving a good opportunity for some fun social contacts with people I like. (mmm... It've been 10 minutes I said "Cya")

[dainbramaged13]

i have a sugestion... go play majestic... have any of you heard about it?

by the way, dont lump fps and rts... rts is not the same level as fps, its more of a middle ground between fps and tbs

On a more serious note, you provide some interesting (and true to your nature, pessimistic) ideas. While I found myself agreeing with most of your reasoning, I really can't accept your conclusions.
FOr one, about your conclusion that you will be able to use the same old civ2 strategies... while the basic idea may be the same, and you'll obviously have a big head start on newcomers to the series, you will NOT be an expert at civ3 the first time you play. from all the big things like culture, borders, and the added importance of diplomacy and trade, to the little things, like small measures to prevent ICS, settlers and workers, you will HAVE to come up with some new strategies. I could win a civ2 game easy just by building up my military and expanding. I truly believe that my empire would grow too thin to survive using these strategies with civ3, because of the importance of roads and domestic trade, as well as the bigger foreign diplomacy/trade picture.

Also, with 5 ways to win, there will be a multitude of pathways you can explore, and last but not least, everyone has mentioned scenarios, because its true! Scenarios make the game a lot less monotonous, and you can play them for ages after you lose interest in the regular game.

I for one, think that you will NOT be bored with civ3 for quite a while, and if you are, it is DEFINIT++++not the fault of Firaxis. After all, how much did you want them to change it? They're making a sequel, not a new game. If youre talking about the basic formula of the game, when you say that you know how to win and stuff, you must realize that keeping the basic formula is inherent in the word 'sequel.'


I know my arguments are not well-organized or well-put, and i apologize, but i think through the whole thing, I do get my point across.

[old timer]

Although I never played Civ I or Civ II, I did play SMAC, and because of how much I played it, I too suspect I'll quickly bore of playing Civ III.

When I first bought SMAC, it was the first TBS game I had played since Empire Deluxe for the Amiga back in the late '80s. At the time, I thought SMAC was the greatest game ever, but now, unfortunately, it would take a radically better AI for me to be able to enjoy another Civ like game.

I've experienced the same thing with other genres, such as RTS, FPS, flight sims, etc., and I now find little satisfaction in playing new games of these types.

But... I've discovered that I really like modifying games and that is what has kept me interested in game playing. My main reason for wanting to buy Civ III is so I can make the AI much better. I'll play the game mainly for this reason, because I don't expect any challenge from the AI (unless it's truly revolutionary). And before anyone tells me to play MP, that's not a very good option for me because of various physical problems I have.

So Yin, maybe you should try modding Civ III and see if that could be fun for you? Just a thought.

[Mannamagnus]

Look at it from the bright side: at least you are having fun posting about civ3 Yin!

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Snapcase
Even Quake will most likely help you in real life.

Damn right! Where else could I have learned to circle-strafe?

Yin: I agree wholeheartedly. Games are kind of like books: Stephen King might be a good read every now and then, but read him too often and I grow incredibly bored with him. The books that actually make me think (good Sci-Fi, good literature, good non-fiction) are much more preferable to the books that are usually at the top of the best-seller list. FPS (and rehashed games, like Civ III may turn out to be) are all well and good for brief periods of time (or when I'm drunk), but otherwise I grow quickly bored with them.

[yin26]

I would just like to thank all of you for some excellent advice and perspective. In particular, I've come to grips with two things:

1. Civ3 won't be re-inventing the wheel (though I was hoping that it would and did my best to push it further up the 'radical departure' scale).

2. Working on MODS and trying to learn the ins-and-outs of the AI routines highly appeals to me. It may be that I am getting so old and crusty (at age 30, I've played too many hours of these things) that I need the 'ultimate' challenge of getting under the hood and doing some creating of my own.

For now, my plan is this: IF I buy Civ3, it will be primarily to tweak it and to try to give the community something really cool. But I will keep that effort behind the scenes, so to speak, such that if I can't deliver the goods, you'd never even know what I was up to. This is to keep any criticisms I might have off the boards.

What I am particularly looking forward to is Master of Orion 3, which (though a '3' just like the next Civ) has a team really trying to rachet things up with some great or potentially ruinous ideas. But they are pushing the envelope at the very least, and I have immense respect for that.

I also had a near spiritual experience when I read that MOO3 has 3-4 programmers FULL-TIME on AI!!! And the fact that they will NOT be releasing this game for a holiday deadline (early 2002?) also indicates to me they are 'risking' missing Christmas because they are confident a superior but later release can make up for and surpass any lost holiday sales.

Thus, I am off the boards indefinitely. If I am able to do some cool things with Civ3, I'll be back. Otherwise, it really has been great discussing all this stuff with you guys these many, many months.

Take care...and ENJOY Civ3!

Yin

[tniem]

Good bye Yin! It is going to be well different without you.

Consider returning when Markos allows the MoO3 section to be finished. Any way thanks for all the arguments and heading up the Civ III section for a while.

[lord of the mark]

I very much enjoyed your post yin.

While i have disagreed with you in the past, clearly you take both this game and history seriously. Your presence will be missed.

As you prepare for being a mod developer please feel free to drop in on the Scenario league board - a different and sometime quite interesting place.


LOTM

[rah]

Good luck Yin,
You've provided a lot of entertainment while we wait.

While I agree with a lot of your reasons for taking a CIV vacation, I'll counter with just two points.

1. After reading/posting here and checking out the new web site. I really don't know a lot more about the game now than a few months ago, So I know when the game comes out, they'll still be enough discovery to keep it interesting. The details that are not being mentioned can change everything.

2. Multiplay. Even after years of MP with CIVII, exposure to different people and ever evolving stratagies makes me rethink what I'm doing damn near every game. The only thing consistent in MP is that if you are consistent (predictable) someone will find a way to kick your ass. Screw the AI, it will never be a worthy opponent after a few games. And the AI is no where near as satisfying to beat.

RAH

[CapTVK]

I have a stange feeling that this really is Yin's final post. Thanks for all the excellent and thought provoking threads. You always seem to hit the nail right on the head. Enjoyment of a game depends on our personal taste and thru the years our appetite changes. I'm not really interested in the main stream games these days (haven't been for years). The fact is that most of them seem quite boring to me. Some years back I would have probably played them through till the end. But I no longer care to put the effort into it. Why should I?

I do still play though, the occasional quick game of Civ2 plus some of the indie/freeware gems like bridgebuilder and stalin's dilemma. Games that show they can be different and interesting at the same time. If you're looking for innovative fresh ideas you're better off here.

You can find these gems at www.theunderdogs.org


P.S

Yin,

If you're really interested in creating something why not throw your skills and intellect into Freeciv. The windows 1.12 binary now works straight from the box these days and is starting to look the part (now we need a better interface and some better eyecandy). While freeciv always can use programmers they need non-programmers even more, new game mechanisms (trade system, diplomacy), graphics, sound, manuals and civilopedia's don't appear from thin air! (hint hint hint!)


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

[vonManstein]

Will the pessimists disband with the loss of their leader?

[Ralf]

Originally posted by yin26
I also had a near spiritual experience when I read that MOO3 has 3-4 programmers FULL-TIME on AI!!!

Hmm. It would feel reassuring if Firaxis expressed the same kind of AI-develop commitment in Civ-3 as well.
"Something like SMAC" just aint good enough. They must go beyond that.

[Steve Clark]

Ralf, it's the quality of AI programmers, not the quantity.

[Wittlich]

Hmmm, What can I say except - Ciao Yin! You're past posts have fueled a hoard of discussions here.

However, for some reason I think that you'll be back. After all, IMO, you have some very strong views and not posting them here is...well...just NOT the Yin I'm familiar with.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by vonManstein
Will the pessimists disband with the loss of their leader?

Well, until "pessimism" means to pull the rope to the other side of a bit too much entusiastic team, hoping to re-fitting things in proper perspective (not in pessimistic view, only more realistic), someone will be here.

Before proper game release anything could be slighty changed (I'm speaking about game enjoyment because of very nice little features, a wonderful AI, a very good balancing); some patch and a very strong MOD can still "save the boat" for anyone not happy about conservative sequel.
May be Firaxis will add some more courageous new game features with the very likely Expansion Pack...

Yin did a lot of job with The List (he wasn't alone, of course, lot of credits must be distributed), I hope he can add some more efforts around here, with a great Scenario or, better, with a new revolutionary alternative Civ game. Good luck Yin!