Is the Graphics Tail Wagging the Game Playability Dog in Civ 3's Design?

[tniem]

Hasn't Dan said that scenario editors can put up to 16 civs in a game at a time? So why is there so much worrying again?

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by tniem
So why is there so much worrying again?

Arator is just whining.

[Sabre2th]

No, I am saying that the game will not be enjoyable if I cannot play with and against the Civs I prefer to play with and against.

If you don't enjoy it, don't play it. Go bother somebody else. We're all sick of it.

[MarkG]

can we have a civil discussion on this forum please?

if disagree with someone either post a counter agrument or ignore the post. in a forum where threads drop to page 2 in a mattr of hours, posting in a thread to complain about the thread only brings the opposite effect.....

[Buck Birdseed]

The second concern is semi-valid, but there is absolutely no reason to post three threads about it, nor act like an immature ***** instead of making a decent, low-key suggestion.

The first concern I think has to be among the most ridiculous I've heard during my time on Apolyton, and I've heard a lot of crap eminating from some of the people here. To call the decision to have few, personality-infused, interesting, differentiated civs that each have their unique advantadges and disadvantadges, and trying to balance all this, "Graphics over Gameplay" is pure, unbridled nonsense. It's not a "Graphics over Gameplay" choice, it's a "Certain type of Gameplay over another type of Gameplay". You may not like it, but be aware that most people here judging from the reactions certainly do. To trivialise one of the bigger gameplay enhancers into "pretty pictures" is an insult to both Firaxis and everyone who actually likes this idea. How can you have the gall to presume that your messed-up vision of an ideal game is the only valid one? How dare you?

What I think, notice "think", not a statement of fact, is that it's a good decision. I personally would rather have 16 distinct civs than one civ with 64 different faces. You do not agree, but puh-lease don't try to pass accross your nonsense as fact.

[Arator]

Originally posted by Snapcase
The second concern is semi-valid, but there is absolutely no reason to post three threads about it, nor act like an immature ***** instead of making a decent, low-key suggestion.

Well, part of my passion about this is I raised these issues repeatedly at the Firaxis forum just after Civ 3 was announced and here back in May. Firaxis has never explicitly responded to the issue.

I was molified by their hints of a super-improved scenario editor, but when I saw the screenshot of the "Player Set Up" screen, it became obvious, incredibly, that the "Your Civ" selector for the standard, random map game is still as rigid and inflexable as it was in Civ II which was and is a crushing disappointment to me especially given that we only have 16 built-in Civs now to play with. To me, this lack of freedom to customize and play with the civs of my choice in the standard, random map game is just a game-killer. I don't think I'm alone in this. So, I am trying to let Firaxis feel the passion of my ire before its too late and they make a terrible mistake. I don't want to see Civ 3 fail, but I fear it will. I'm not going to buy it if it does not allow me the freedom to play with and against the civs of my choosing. It's as simple as that.

The first concern I think has to be among the most ridiculous I've heard during my time on Apolyton, and I've heard a lot of crap eminating from some of the people here. To call the decision to have few, personality-infused, interesting, differentiated civs that each have their unique advantadges and disadvantadges, and trying to balance all this, "Graphics over Gameplay" is pure, unbridled nonsense. It's not a "Graphics over Gameplay" choice, it's a "Certain type of Gameplay over another type of Gameplay". You may not like it, but be aware that most people here judging from the reactions certainly do. To trivialise one of the bigger gameplay enhancers into "pretty pictures" is an insult to both Firaxis and everyone who actually likes this idea. How can you have the gall to presume that your messed-up vision of an ideal game is the only valid one? How dare you?

I have no problem at all with differentiate civs. In fact, that is an improvement. But, lets get real here. As far as the way the game is played, the substance of the differentiation lies not in the FANCY LEADER GRAPHICS but in:

1) the 2 out of 6 possible CIV ABILITIES assigned to each Civ

2) the SPECIAL UNIT assigned to each Civ, and unique timing of its "Golden Age" which flows from it.

That's it. The FANCY LEADER GRAPHIC is just superfluous cosmetics. That's why it is GALLING to have 3 fundamental improvements in game play and customizability sacrificed for the sake of FANCY LEADER GRAPHICS.

I see no reason why, if we are allowed to ADD CUSTOM CIVS, these two substantive CIV differentiations -- 2 CIV ABILITIES and SPECIAL UNIT -- cannot easily be made part of the customization process. Everytime you build a custom civ, you choose 2 out of the 6 civ abilities for it and you select one unique unit out of all the standard units to marginally enhance in attack, defense, or movement and become that Civ's Civ Specific Unit. What's so hard about that? It isn't. The only hurdle to full customization of unique civs is the FANCY LEADER GRAPHICS! So, I ask you, how infuriating is that?

What I think, notice "think", not a statement of fact, is that it's a good decision. I personally would rather have 16 distinct civs than one civ with 64 different faces. You do not agree, but puh-lease don't try to pass accross your nonsense as fact.

Unlimited differentiated and fully customizable civs would be even better don't you think? As I've demonstrated in this post, but for the FANCY LEADER GRAPHICS, it could be easily done. Don't you think they should?

At least give us a generic fancy leader graphic to use for all custom civs created. That would be a stop gap given their present graphically driven game design. But, please, Firaxis, DO NOT SACRIFICE FUNDAMENTAL IMPROVEMENTS IN GAME CUSTOMIZABILITY AND PLAY for the sake of fluff like fancy leader graphics! I beg you!