emp bombs

[Lord Magnus]

On a different tangent here: Bush should develop EMP tech instead of an interceptor missle as a SDI. The pulse could disable nukes better than any interceptor can.

[E. Goldstein]

So what would you have society do, Krazyhorse? Not develop electronics, and get rid of what we have? Despite your claims, the situation is the same for electronics now as it was for tanks in the 20s and 30s(or whenever any sort of new technology was/will be introduced). What you're doing is the same as telling a runner he might as well give up the race because someone else might run faster.

EMPs will be about as widely used as nuclear bombs are. They don't just take out bombers and battleships, EMPs also scramble hospitals, water treatment plants, and civilian power plants, essentially putting an entire city's population at risk. They are no videogamey equalizer between the 1st and 3rd worlds. At best EMPs will take over the backpack nuke or home-grown anthrax's job as a literary hook in some second-rate terrorist novel.

The Civ series doesn't need any more lame gimmicky units ala CTP. What it needs, as far as WMDs, is a feature so that nukes can be pre-targetted for launch the instant a nuclear strike hits a friendly city. This would allow for a true MAD environment, and provide a considerable deterrant to nuclear attacks.

[Lord Magnus]

Hey Goldstein check out this link on M.A.D.

And Goldstein is right about how frequently EMP will be used. If EMP bombs can be built with 1950's tech, then how come all these nations aren't flinging EMP's at each other if it's so easy to generate?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Lord Magnus




You forgot to factor in energy, sure a few nuke can cover a large area but the field is so spead out that it just dusts the electronics with EMP that's why all the nuclear bomb tests that USSR and USA conducted didn't affect no electronics. It probally had more affect on biological systems than electronic.

You obviously weren't living in Hawaii in the 60s. The US managed to black out the entire island, IIRC. It wasn't as much of a disaster as it would be today, because less things were computerised. I think I remember war plans calling for only a half-dozen or so nukes detonating at a couple hundred kilometers altitude, and the level of radiation would have been sufficient to knock out any non-hardened devices.

[Laszlo]

Originally posted by Lord Magnus
And Goldstein is right about how frequently EMP will be used. If EMP bombs can be built with 1950's tech, then how come all these nations aren't flinging EMP's at each other if it's so easy to generate?

Lord Magnus, an EMP device of effective size is basically an H-bomb. Anything less concentrated would be really hard to launch over your enemy's atmosphere. As of 1999, there were 44 nuclear capable nations in the world (meaning they have nuclear reactors for power or research). But since the early sixties only India and Pakistan have joined the original five member nations of the nuclear club - the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France. In other words, it's expensive and exclusive - the original members were against India's and Pakistan's tests.

And though there is animosity between the two new entrants, and in the past among the first few members, the political situation of the world would not exactly tolerate nations as trigger-happy as the ones in Civ II. Though I have no doubt that any civ or civer would leap at the chance to employ this miracle weapon over exercising restraint.

[KrazyHorse]

So what would you have society do, Krazyhorse? Not develop electronics, and get rid of what we have? Despite your claims, the situation is the same for electronics now as it was for tanks in the 20s and 30s(or whenever any sort of new technology was/will be introduced). What you're doing is the same as telling a runner he might as well give up the race because someone else might run faster

Where the hell is this coming from? When did I advocate any sort of Luddism? I'm merely pointing out that EMP devices were a part of the nuclear arsenal of the two nuclear superpowers, and that an EMP detonation would cause a large amount of damage to the electronic infrastructure of any developed nation. I'm not even advocating their inclusion in Civ3, so learn to read before you criticise.

And Goldstein is right about how frequently EMP will be used. If EMP bombs can be built with 1950's tech, then how come all these nations aren't flinging EMP's at each other if it's so easy to generate?

Actually, generating a largish EMP requires the use of thermonuclear weapons and the ability to deliver them above the atmosphere, a combination of abilities which only 5 nations have. The reasons EMPs aren't used is the same reason atmosphere-detonated nukes aren't used: they're weapons of mass destruction, and their use will return to bite the user on the ass.

[Lord Magnus]

To KrazyHorse and Laszlo:
When I said:

If EMP bombs can be built with 1950's tech, then how come all these nations aren't flinging EMP's at each other if it's so easy to generate?

I was refering to DarkCloud's posts, but thanx for answering my 'question' anyways.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You obviously weren't living in Hawaii in the 60s. The US managed to black out the entire island, IIRC. It wasn't as much of a disaster as it would be today, because less things were computerised. I think I remember war plans calling for only a half-dozen or so nukes detonating at a couple hundred kilometers altitude, and the level of radiation would have been sufficient to knock out any non-hardened devices.

How did they do that? Not exploding nuclear devices I hope.

IIRC a couple hundread kilometers is too far away to have any real effect.

[Laszlo]

KrazyHorse is right about there being documented real-world effects from US testing over Pacific isles. And in a real war, an EMP would be more tempting to use than just blowing up a city because it avoids the controversial practice of heating up millions of innocent civilians to temperatures hotter than the sun and all the really nasty after-effects such as blindness and radiation sickness. All deaths caused would be "second-hand" and unintentional.

And the shielding, Urban Ranger, would have to be a bit more filled in than a Faraday cage, at least that's what my source (The Electromagnetic Pulse)has been saying. Though the shield would only need to be millimeters thick, it would have to be a continuous welded sheet. I was shocked, but it said this cost $1000 (1986 US) per square meter to do this.

The electronic hardening is a lot cheaper because it only deals with making the sensitive components more sturdy, though presently are not reliable enough to...rely on. Though I'm sure (or hope) that will change.

[Lord Magnus]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
The reasons EMPs aren't used is the same reason atmosphere-detonated nukes aren't used: they're weapons of mass destruction, and their use will return to bite the user on the ass.

Originally posted by Laszlo
an EMP device of effective size is basically an H-bomb. Anything less concentrated would be really hard to launch over your enemy's atmosphere.

Humm with that EMP tech is going to have to be researched more for it to be useful

Originally posted by Lord Magnus
So by the time EMP tech is perfected, computers probally won't run on electronics anymore and the EMP will have little to no effect on computers.

[Laszlo]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

How did they do that? Not exploding nuclear devices I hope.

Urban Ranger, the US and other nations indeed did open-air tests in the sixties. After Carl Sagan and others popularized the idea of a possible nuclear winter from the dust lofted into the atmosphere by multiple explosions, public reaction made underground testing the only accepted alternative (though Sagan may have had complete abolition of testing in mind). There was also some radiation contamination of milk and produce in the midwestern US from cloud deposition and a miniscule remnant of that radiation still circulates today.

Various non-proliferation treaties and test bans have been agreed upon within the nuclear club since then, and now fuels the debate between them and the nuclear club wannabes. Theclub members don't want to allow more testing but they won't disclose their testing knowledge to those nations either. Admittedly, I think India could better allocate it's resources by providing for it's billion not too well off inhabitants instead of it's testing program, but it does seem unfair for them to be denied this information because they arrived on the nuclear scene a few decades too late.

The desire to keep these nuclear secrets locked up though, is not to short India or Pakistan, but to keep it away from "rogue nations" such as Iraq or Libya that would dare to use them without fearing the consequences. This also kept US companies from exporting supercomputers for years b/c it could be used to simulate nuclear explosions. But "supercomputers" of yesterday are basically the PCs of today, or a few linked up in parallel. The US companies have been upset b/c this puts them at a disadvantage compared to foreign competition and I believe Congress has been lifting the restrictions a bit more each year to compensate for the rate of advance in chip technology. Well, I've ranted far too long and drifted off-topic so I'll stop here.

[DarkCloud]

Magnus-

The article couldnt have been older than 6 months; I read it in a barbershop and it was a cover article: "EMP Weapons"

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
The article couldnt have been older than 6 months; I read it in a barbershop and it was a cover article: "EMP Weapons"

Wow, the only papers my barbers' has is The Sun, FHM or some other trashie magizine.

[Jonny]

The cover story of the September 2001 Pepular Mechanics is about EMP bombs. It says that the first major test of an American electromagnetic bomb will be next year. It also says that very high frequency pulses could go through vents in Faraday Cages. It also says that terrorists could build a basic EMP bomb for an estimated $400. So the barbs might get these if they were in the game.

[Footie Mad]

This can only lead to one thing, the return of steampower!!