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Conducting war not that easy in Civ-3

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  • Conducting war not that easy in Civ-3

    There was one fundamental problem in older Civ-versions, when it came how effectively the AI-civs could conduct war against the human player, alternatively how they could respond to massive military build-ups prior to fullscale HP-conducted invasions:

    The problem consisted in that the AI was restricted to only conduct war by sending military units against you.

    Since the human player, traditionally in civ-games, always had the tactical advantage in moving around combat-units, and also an strategical advantage when it came to raw production-capacity, he often could respond to AI war-declarations with a yawn, alternatively quietly build enormous end-game armies, while the AI-civs often where partly too dumb, but just as often; simply too backward in terms of city-developments & production-capacity, to ever be able to respond against in a effective manner.

    According to the released info about the Civ-3 development, several pivotal changes have however already been implemented (and more to follow, I hope) that together definitely makes HP war-conducting, much more of a risk-calculating challenge.

    The ultimate prize would be if Firaxis manages to make wars in Civ-3 much more about "a means to an end" (= risk-estimated time-limited shortcuts to achieve better civil advantages; both economical, political & in terms of increased production-strength) rather then just a self-feeding and increasingly more risk-free self-perpetuating military goal in itself.

    Anyway, below is the under-the-hood confirmed changes listed that I am refeering too:
    • In Civ-2 you produced & supported combat-units by harvesting shields, which always where self-sufficiently available within your own city-areas. In Civ-3 you must support your combat-units by spending money, which only partially can be "harvested" within your borders. An increasingly bigger share must however also be obtained by establishing multiple trade-agreements with the foreign AI-civs. This means that you figuratively speaking, must place at least one of your balls in the hands of the AI-civs, in order to optain enough money to support your military might - especially in end-games. If you want to make the game even harder and more challenging, you can easily choose to downtweak all the terrain-improvement trade-outputs in the Rules.txt files, making army support-costs even more dependent on peaceful trade-relations with at least 1-2 AI-civs.
    • In Civ-2 replacing trade-routes (= embargoing) was far too strenuous to even consider for the HP, and if the AI eventually did it; it only meant that your wealth perhaps didnt grow that much anymore. Big deal.
      In Civ-3 it seems that disrupting trade-agreements, both is much easier and have more immediate consequences - especially if the AI-civs start to establish trade embargo-pacts against you. Effective trade-embargos means that massive HP military support-costs now can be thwarted more easily.

      This can be counteracted by converting to nationalism and choosing war-economy, and/or establish & nuture ally-treatys in advance. But, perhaps only for so long. Your "trusty" ally starts to recognize his pivotal role here; perhaps he wants to "sweeten the deal" in order to continue the treaty. Conquered new city-areas, of course, give you access to new trade-tiles (which finances a continued war), but that alone only gives you some stop-gap money, considering all the over new design-tweaks thats now seems to effect "art of war". I also dont think the AI will idle on huge dust-collecting city-fortunes anymore, as it did in Civ-2. Not if they tweak the AI in Civ-3 a little better in this respect. I hope they do - at least on the harder game-levels.

      (As you can see: Above tweaks alone makes the journey on the warpath, a somewhat more delicate process then it ever was in Civ-2. Especially for multiplayers. And theres more to come...)
    • In Civ-2, all units depended on one and the same generic resource only: the shields - it was uniformly available more or less anywhere and everywhere on the map.
      In Civ-3, every unit has its resource prerequisites. Each unit is tied to one or more special resources, so you're available forces will be dictated by your own resource supply.

      In short; the human player is now much more dependent on good relations with (at least some) of the AI-civs, which make investments in peace- and alliance-treatys much more needed and essential priority. In the older civ-versions you could more or less choose to play in "splendid isolation" and, if you where strong enough, just arrogantly ignore the fact that if most AI-civs hated you. Not so in Civ-3, it seems.
    Last edited by Ralf; August 2, 2001, 04:20.

  • #2
    Well, all of those are good points about the enanchments they've made to war in civ3. My only qualms -
    - Will the computer know how to take advantage of these things?
    - Will the computer actually know how to launch a full scale war against you?
    - Why no stacked combat ala ctp1/2? They have pseudo stacking in civ3, where units move together, but don't actually fight together - which is, really, a bit stupid
    If the voices in my head paid rent, I'd be a very rich man

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Zanzin

      - Will the computer know how to take advantage of these things?
      - Will the computer actually know how to launch a full scale war against you?
      It all comes down to the quality of the AI, something I believe is vital to Civ 3:s success.
      It's candy. Surely there are more important things the NAACP could be boycotting. If the candy were shaped like a burning cross or a black man made of regular chocolate being dragged behind a truck made of white chocolate I could understand the outrage and would share it. - Drosedars

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Zanzin
        - Why no stacked combat ala ctp1/2? They have pseudo stacking in civ3, where units move together, but don't actually fight together - which is, really, a bit stupid
        Individual units within an army doesnt attack and defend "to the death". Instead each attack-, or defence-unit step down then their damage-bar goes red, and his undamaged shoulder-buddy steps up in order to continue the attack/defence-duties.
        Also, dedicated defence-units doesnt carry out attacks as long as there are more appropriate attack-units still available. Likewise; attack-units doesnt join-in to defend, as long as there are more dedicated defend-units still available. Most probably this process can be executed fast and automatically without player-interference.

        So, in a sequential matter, an Civ-3 army really fight as a whole.

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        • #5
          what seems "sucky" to me is if u dont have any bronze or iron in the early game.

          is this possible?

          and i think the resource system is an awesome thing, as it modifys war so well.

          if the chinese are getting snippy, stop selling them oil.

          NO TANKS FOR YOU.
          "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
          - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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          • #6
            Ralf,

            hey welcome back!

            An increasingly bigger share must however also be obtained by establishing multiple trade-agreements with the foreign AI-civs. This means that you figuratively speaking, must place at least one of your balls in the hands of the AI-civs, in order to optain enough money to support your military might - especially in end-games. If you want to make the game even harder and more challenging, you can easily choose to downtweak all the terrain-improvement trade-outputs in the Rules.txt files, making army support-costs even more dependent on peaceful trade-relations with at least 1-2 AI-civs.
            right now this is unconfirmed...most of the information tells of linking trade grids together, but commerce income from trade routes hasn't been discussed yet, why i do agree with you that trade routes most likely will generate commerce income firaxis hasn't confirmed this and the amount of commerce income each trade route generates hasn't been confirmed

            In Civ-3 it seems that disrupting trade-agreements, both is much easier and have more immediate consequences - especially if the AI-civs start to establish trade embargo-pacts against you. Effective trade-embargos means that massive HP military support-costs now can be thwarted more easily.
            agreed, but i do think that this can (will?) be a double edged sword...where the hp will cut off an AIs trade by forming embargos against an ai and if it still contains the "build as many units as possible" routine then the ai will wreck it's already weak economy

            In Civ-3, every unit has its resource prerequisites. Each unit is tied to one or more special resources, so you're available forces will be dictated by your own resource supply.
            again this is true, except it seems that obtaining the resources needed to fuel a war machine will be fairly easy...so that in general a civ won't be isolated from a vital resource completely...however interdiction of transport systems could isolate big part of a civ from the resources they need to contribute to the war effort...bombers destroying links between cities could prove to be quite valauable

            there are also two things you left out

            *the effects of nationality on conquest
            *the rumored effects that war has on culture

            the effects of war on culture was in the gamespy preview i think...but from what they said (jeff briggs i think) a war would lower culture for all civs on that continant

            so it sounds like war will have harsher effects in civ3 than it did in civ2, it also sounds like it will take better planning to build and maintain a war machine...but this could end up making it easier for the hp instead of making it harder, if the ai can't cope with the changes
            Last edited by korn469; August 2, 2001, 15:48.

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            • #7
              I've never played Ctp/CtpII but I do understand how their stacking army system works. I happen to think the Civ3 system is much better. The Civ3 system won't enable you to stack a bunch of weak units in order to beat a well advanced, modern unit. That just isn't realistic. I don't care how many phalanxes there are, they shouldn't be able to beat an armor.

              I do have a question, though, about the Civ3 system. Lets say you have two tanks (3 move) and two marines (1 move) stacked together. What would be the movement rate of the army?

              I'm going to go with what Willie stated. It all falls down on the shoulders of the AI for us to have this kind of challenge in war from your (AI) opponents. I do believe, though, that the AI will be competent enough to put up a fairly good fight.
              However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TechWins
                I do have a question, though, about the Civ3 system. Lets say you have two tanks (3 move) and two marines (1 move) stacked together. What would be the movement rate of the army?
                I'm assuming the slowest one. However to compensate for this, hopefully, Firaxis will include a truck unit or combat transport to compensate for this and truly allow for Blitzkrieg tactics

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by SerapisIV


                  I'm assuming the slowest one. However to compensate for this, hopefully, Firaxis will include a truck unit or combat transport to compensate for this and truly allow for Blitzkrieg tactics
                  Wouldn't that be a Mech Infantry unit?

                  The German "blitzkrieg" tactics deployed in early WWII required that a whole combat division be mobile - a German panzer division relied as much upon trucks (to carry the infantry and haul the artillery) and radios (to keep fast-moving units coordinated) as it did on tanks.

                  The howitzer/armor/mech infantry stack would seem to be the optimal combination of attack, defense and movement (albeit with a movement allowance of 2) in an "army-stack" environment.
                  Diplomacy is the continuation of war by other means.

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                  • #10
                    Yes stacking will change the game. And yes, enough bare handed men have been known to beat a tank. No more defending cities with a couple of units. As long as the ai is agressive, stacks of twelve will be able to easily take out any two units. And once it's a stack, even the AI can handle attack.

                    As to the point that war will be harder.


                    So what if they change it to gold instead of shield. (actually that should make it easier)
                    There will still be trade to build an economy on. Look at what markus and others have done with civ II with just trade. Heck I generate tons of money without foreign trade. It's not hard. If it's too hard to generate money, no game balance. Experts will have no problem. (just like now)

                    Resources. Yes you may be limited in one resource or other, but a massive strike of slightly weaker units will allow you to easily take it from the AI. They can't make it so restrictive that you can't build any military or there will be no game balance at all.

                    MP will be a totally different in these respects.

                    So I'm don't think we've seen the end of the WAR strat.
                    Just like any game. If you need it, go take it. While I still hold out hope that the ai will be better, I doubt it will ever be superior.




                    RAH
                    It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                    RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                    • #11
                      rah

                      Yes stacking will change the game. And yes, enough bare handed men have been known to beat a tank. No more defending cities with a couple of units. As long as the ai is agressive, stacks of twelve will be able to easily take out any two units. And once it's a stack, even the AI can handle attack.
                      you are right here...the only thing is unless the ai is in nationalism it will still be limited by the 1 stack per 4 cities rule...hopefully the ai will attack with its stack instead of leave in back at the capital

                      stacked combat will make things simpler in a way, almost more like civ1 because you in one battle ten you could kill ten units

                      but as for the good aspects of stacked combat...in smac there are many times when i used a very small force to stop a very large force, i would set up a kill zone, (a square that took 2 movement points to move into it) build a road that lead up to it then i'd use maybe three rovers to kill fourty units over five turns...the ai would pull up with big stacks of units then my rovers would attack, weakening the stack (i usually had a technological advantage) till the collateral damage would destroy the entire stack...even with my tech advantage (and usually a morale advantage too) the AIs superior numbers should have allowed it an advantage but because there wasn't stacked combat and putting a large group on the same square (what the ai always did) was bad, a player could always defeat a much larger force

                      with stacked combat the ai would have been able to breakthrough my defenses...so i think that this might actually put the ai's production advantages to work...so stacked combat will be a plus for the ai

                      units supported by gold will probably be bad for the ai...as will resources

                      so the ai which has been great at building and maintaing huge armies will have problems doing that to previous games, while at the same time focusing its production advantages on the battlefield will actually be something it might be able to do now unlike previous games

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                      • #12
                        Agreed except for

                        "units supported by gold will probably be bad for the ai...as will resources"

                        You're probably right with resources, but you never know. An AI civ has always been good trading techs with other AI civs. Heck later in the game, one civ gets a tech and they all have it in a turn or two. So I assume they'll do the same with resources. And while the AI has never been adept at city placement, once there are enough AI cities on the board, there will be a high probability that every type of resource will be available to one of them. (unless the human player spends all his time cherry picking those resources) I expect resources to be only a problem for the AI early in the game.

                        But supported by gold shouldn't hamper the AI. The AI in civII never had problems generating large treasuries. Which was good since it was easy to make them give it to you.

                        And I'm sure at the hardest levels, the AI will not be as constrained as the human players regarding stacks. (If CivII is any example, i.e planes that never need to be refueled or land etc.)

                        RAH
                        It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                        RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                        • #13
                          I always had the feeling AI tends to cheat with techs. It's easy to make an AI beat humans, if you let it cheat. But I want a strong AI without cheating, a fair game for all.
                          Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
                          Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
                          I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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                          • #14
                            I'd also like that, BUT there's no way the AI will be that strong.

                            The reduced build/food boxes for the AI never bothered me (I consider those appropriate handicaps) . But the suspension of other rules did. We'll see. I sure they'll have some cheats.

                            RAH
                            It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                            RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                            • #15
                              If you made an AI as smart as a human, it would be no problem . I didn't like the AI growth cheats in CtP, where his cities were twice larger than yours, easily.
                              Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
                              Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
                              I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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