Civ 3 and EU2

[Kautilya]

Most of you probably know about the game Europa Universalis released last year by Pardox. Though I haven't played it as much as I would like to IMO it's the best empire game out there. It's big feature is that the gameplay is probably the most historically accurate there is. The AI ,while it has problems , is lots better than Civ2/SMAC.

Now EU2 is due to be released late this year and I will bet that it beat the pants off Civ3. For one thing it is now a truly world game with 180 (yes you read right!!) playable countries all over the world.

The most interesting point of difference is the enthusiasm of the programming team and the corresponding enthusiasm of the fans. There have been 9 patches for EU and one more is in the making. Paradox reads the bulletin board regularly and responds very frequently to fan suggestions. I would bet that there have been more posts from Paradox in the EU2 forum in the last week than from Firaxis in the last year.

I still expect that Civ3 will be a decent game. But I can't help feeling that there isn't much enthusiasm about it at Firaxis, and that it was Dinos and now SimGolf which was the real passion especially for Sid Meier. We all remember the mass exodus a year back. That lack of enthusiasm has seeped through to the fan base. It's evident that a large fraction of the fans are becoming disillusioned.

So it appears that the young upstart with fire in its belly is besting the established franchise which is resting on its laurels.

The king is dead. Long live the king !

[Fidel]

yes, eu team (paradox) are really wonderful. really really wonderful.
before you pronounce civ dead, bear in mind that eu is a simulation of a portion of history, covering a part where the game engine can simulate strategical issues to a great degree. same game engine would be worthless for ancient and moder eras.

about 180 nations - it is not comparable to 180 civs, since most of them are really really handicapped (city states, vassals, etc). there are around 7-8 great powers, truly playable in teh civ-sense .

all this said, i am really happy they are making a sequel....

[Grumbold]

Some people may suspect me of being a Paradox infiltrator I seem to have been extolling its praises so much over here in the last few months. EU1 certainly had only 8 countries set up as playable. The ambition in the second title is to extend the gameplay another 100 years (1419-1820), introduce more sophisticated government, economic and technological progression and make the system properly playable for every country on the map. Naturally being historically based some countries are going to have major advantages over others unless you play one of the fantasia variations.

One of the keys to their continued success has been the devotion they put in to maintaining their website and participating in the discussion forums. From a customer point of view, all game companies should work this way.

[MarkG]

hey perhaps firaxis should do the same!

release "civ3: ancient times" in october. 7 months later(with enough time to kill more bugs and balance the extra units) the... "sequel"! "civ4: burn the witch", which extends the game to the medieval age and add religion in the model. then a year later we'll have the final part, "civ5: buy those stocks now" which brings the game the 21st century and add a real economic model


disclaimer: i havent played EU and it's probably a very good game. but balancing a game with units from a period of 6000 years is a big task, which is why very few companies have attempted to make such a game....

[Colonâ„¢]

Although I was very interested in the game (I did some promotion for the game here way back in early 2000) I never bought EU, but I can only say that I concur with what's said about Paradox. Paradox developers interact very closely with the EU community at their site, they react on gamers' ideas, give game info, explain their intentions etc...

[Colonâ„¢]

Markos, at least they included MP in their first version and didn't deem it necessary to release 2 expansion packs with mediocre scenarios.

[MarkG]

MP: and how many years after civ2 was eu released?

expansion packs: sequels dont come out in one year. you can always call expansion packs as "sequels" of course

[TheBirdMan]

Why are you laughing ( ) Markos. You idea isn't that bad at all.

Many would like to play an ancient game only - expanded to middelage and modern age a year or two later.

If the game was nearly bugfree - nearly. And had MP and PBEM facilities that worked from the start.

Really - a good idea Markos

[SnowFire]

Markos: Bad assumption. Who says Civ 3 has to be Civ 2.5? Features for shorter game play might be interesting. I'm not saying I think this is neccesarily the best way to go, but it would be one way to have shaken up Civ3.

As for EU2... eh, I liked EU, but EU2 will have to have some significant differences for me to buy it right away. It's not like Myth and Myth II where there was a definite reason to go get Myth II- more campaign missions and new multiplayer maps and strategies.

I've got my eyes on MOO3. Just look at the "Official Comments" at their website, they reveal how the game is going to work in great detail, and it looks like it's going to be even more hackable than most Firaxis products. Plus, I somehow doubt they read my Technology thread, but they seem to have implemented a heck of a lot more of our ideas than Firaxis has.

[Sabre2th]

About the EU2/Civ3 thing:

EU2 is coming out only a year after the first one. That isn't much time to work on it. There will be minor changes at best. (Although the 180 countries is appealing.)

It's been how many years since civ was released? 10? That's a long time. People have been coming up with ideas for additions and improvements to the civ series for a decade. In addition, Firaxis has spent more than 2 years working on the new game and included OUR ideas in it. Civ3 will be better because, in many ways, its our game.

I, for one, will not be buying EU2.

[kolpo]

EU2 is coming out only a year after the first one. That isn't much time to work on it. There will be minor changes at best. (Although the 180 countries is appealing.)

Not nescary, paradox is very good in game design and programming, and it is possible that the whole engine is build with the idea to be able to extends itself easily with possible sequels in mind. For example if the engine and AI part of it are well build will the engine and AI work equaly good with 1, 8 or 180 nations. Also the paradox team are freaks they won't mind working 20 hours a day all week I think

[Sabre2th]

LOL Either way, I'm entitled to my opinion.

[Kautilya]

EU and Civ are obviously different kinds of games so it's a matter of taste which one you prefer. The main point I was making was the vastly different levels of attention paid to the fan-base by Paradox. We have become used to the crumbs that Firaxis throws our way so it's good to remember that there are companies out there which put more effort into interacting with the fans.

As for EU2 it is quite conservative but I think the 180 playable countries is quite awesome. It means that you can play the game from a completely different perspective like from the Asian pov.

Also there is a much richer domestic model and I find the idea of making decisions based on scripted events very intriguing. All in all I am looking forward to it.

While Civ3 has been in the makings for a while it is clear that it isn't going to be revolutionary either so that's hardly a point to its advantage. My big hope, as I have said often enough, is that by reducing gameplay changes they will have more time to nail the basics like AI and interface. I am still hoping but there is no indication so far from Firaxis of any special effort along those lines especially wrt. the AI.

Overall I am looking forward to both games but I think EU2 will be the better one.

[saracen31]

EU2 sounds like it will be quite similar to the first. Same time period even. The economic model will be extended, and I'm sure they'll make a complex, fun game even more complex & fun.

Firaxis could take a page from Paradox's book & interact with the community, however. That's what keeps and expands a loyal fanbase.

[Colonâ„¢]

Markos, why should I care anyway? I never bought the original, I’m not the one who will get screwed.

Nah, I think this might better have been an expansion pack or that they better had wait for a fully-fledged sequel, this is more of ToT.

Kautilya, I find the idea of an expanded domestic policy also quite interesting. In fact, I made a thread at the EU2 forum about domestic policy, but it isn’t getting many replies although someone informed me that one of the screenshots shows several sliders with the announced features. (eg: mercantilism vs free market)