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Theoretically, one could create kamakaze planes in Civ2. You just make a bomber and set it so it disappears after attacking (like missiles). You could make it only available when you have a technology which you can't research or trade and give it to the Japanese. I think it would be a cool addition to the WW2 world scenario.
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"Proletarier aller Länder, vereinigt euch!" -- Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels
"If you expect a kick in the balls and get a slap in the face, that's a victory." -- Irish proverb
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I disagree with this type of unit strongly.
Remeber a "unit" is not a plane, or a ship. Kamikazees have never been used on the scale of entire air wings or bigger. (A unit in modern times would be somewhere areound a brigade or division + support equipment, and infrastructure to build replacment gear.) That's lot to use in one run. I don't like cruise missle units for the same reason. Instead I would give bombers and some ships an extra long range, reduced strength bombard."Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. ClarkComment
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and nuclear is one single unit. yet´s in there. kamikasez would be cheap, easy-to-use units for the japanese. most of the reason i like it is that it would look cool graphically. and if they´re gonna have civ-specific units, they should have one for each age.Comment
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Cheap? No, it costs the same as a regular fighter unit. Easy-to-use? Yeah, but so does a regular fighter unit.
It's also utterly useless. Imagine a bunch of kids flying fighter planes whose controls they weren't even very familiar. Half was lost on the way. Among those who got to the target(s) most got destroyed by AA fire. And whatever left just crashed into their target(s) without much effect at all.
BTW it's not a nationalist government. It's a militarist government.(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."Comment
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So what exactly would they give the Zulus for the modern age or the Americans for the ancient age?if they´re gonna have civ-specific units, they should have one for each age.
If you were to only have one civ-specific unit for all ages (which is the case in Civ3) the samurai would be a much cooler and important unit than the kamikazee unit. This all to say if the Japanesse will even be in the game. I sure hope they're in because I love destoying them in Civ2 (same reason why I like to destroy the Germans, WW2).However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.Comment
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TW: that´s were they gonna use their imagination. besides, i´ve already said i don´t think americans should be playable from the beginning, but to be born only if the English split.
the reason i want 4 specific units for each civ (one per age) is that the games can be quite predictable - ie. the germans keep peaceful until they develope their Blitz Tanks etc.
UR: nationalist govs almost always become violent. under nationalism, the civ brainwashes the soldiers to do anything. just look at Germany in WWII. how could so many people become evil suddenly?Comment
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UF: That's not really fair. With that reasoning, the English and Vikings should only be born if the Germans split. And the French and Italians come from a split within the Roman empire. You see my point?Originally posted by uncle_funk
besides, i´ve already said i don´t think americans should be playable from the beginning, but to be born only if the English split.
P.S. I hate the idea of a kamikaze unit and it wouldn't function for most nationalistic/militaristic governments. The japanese kamikaze pilots sacrificed themselves based on the japanese society and culture and a willingness to "die for the emperor". There were no such tactics used by the Nazis and for good reason, none of the SS would have acquiesced. They would have flown their planes over to occupied territory and surrendered (much like the Iraqi pilots did in the Gulf War).Comment
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Sorry to disagree, but we should consider that during wars some people become evil, no matter if under nationalist gov or not:Originally posted by uncle_funk
UR: nationalist govs almost always become violent. under nationalism, the civ brainwashes the soldiers to do anything. just look at Germany in WWII. how could so many people become evil suddenly?
we know bad stories about Allied soldiers during WWII campaign in Italy, or USA forces in Vietnam... sure they wheren't under a nationalistic gov, AFAIK.
Kamikaze where the expression of a cultural (religious) aspect of Japan, not a "special unit" by its own common meaning. Suicidal terrorist that drive trucks or boat full of explosive to hit enemy aren't really different.
Under a "religious nationalism" or whatever Civ III will have as political/cultural naming, we can suppose to have "suicidal attack" order available to any military unit.
SMAC already have "autodestruction", so it'll not be a "first time" feature, you see.
Not sure it'll be worth the hassle, but..."We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
- Admiral NaismithComment
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French actually originated from the germanic tribe the Franks ...Originally posted by fittstim
UF: That's not really fair. With that reasoning, the English and Vikings should only be born if the Germans split. And the French and Italians come from a split within the Roman empire. You see my point?
The Germans are the forerunners of most of European tribes... It was the Roamns that kept the Barbarians (Germanic Tribes) at bay for so long, but finally they won out and re took Europe from the Romans ....
Russians are now beleived to be descendants of Vikings too , so that deletes another tribe....
How far back do you wanna go before we realise all tribes are basically Noah descendants and therefor civ should start with just one civ ...GM of MAFIA #40 ,#41, #43, #45,#47,#49-#51,#53-#58,#61,#68,#70, #71Comment
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this sound pretty astonishing to me. That way, all scandinavians would contain Slavic blood, and we certainly don't look like Slavics. I'm pretty sure we´re a North-germanic tribe, we´re quite similar today...to the German's and English. Maybe you're thinking of the Finnish-Uralic?
Russians are now beleived to be descendants of Vikings too , so that deletes another tribe....
Man, my english is horrible today...
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Noah?!? Don't you mean Lucy the missing link of Cro-Magnon fame?
Anyway, the Franks very well might have been of Germanic descent but, inspite of the country being called France, the people living in France are by no means decendents of Germanic tribes. They're good ol' Latin based people (Gauls if you will).
And even though there has been some recent talk here about Russians being the spawn of the Vikings, it doesn't really make any sense. The eastern Slavs had a definite presence in western Russia as early as 600 AD. And by 1000, Russia was an established "country". Although the Vikings did indeed trade and pillage extensively in this region, there is no reason to disregard the peoples already living there. Plus, the Scandanavian languages are about as close to Russian (or Slavic languages) as they are to Arabic.
Point taken about suicide truck drivers but, again, I stand by my conviction. Suicide troops are not a government related phenomenom. They are based on local culture/religion.Comment
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that´s right, i don´t wanna be a russian!
fittstim (nice book, eh?
): ofcourse a hardcore-nationalistic government can cause people to die for they country in suicidal assaults. with the right typ of propaganda, combined with extreme hard conditions and powerty, the government can make people do almost anything.
the reason Americans died in 'Nam were propaganda and culture, plus a drastic diverse in governments, (capitalism and communism), something i also would like to see in the game.
i'm not saying that any government could do this. i'm just saying that i would like to see kamikaze´s as the japanese modern-age civ-specific unit, available only in a nationalistic gov, and after a specific culture treshold. i mean, if each civ has an unique unit for each age (and that´s better than only one unique unit, for obvious reasons), wouldn´t kamikaze´s would be the coolest modern-age option?Last edited by Juggernaut; July 5, 2001, 07:30.Comment
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Sverige till EM-final!!!
Kamikazes might be cool until some lame AI controlled civ starts using them on your unsuspecting cities/units. At least with bombers, cruise missiles and nukes, you had the option to build a city improvement which would negate the threat. What could justifiably combat both a suicide truck driver AND a kamikaze pilot? Hmmm, maybe it's time to create a "Langley" or "FBI" city improvement. Any suicide unit would have a chance of being detected/stopped otherwise it's lights out... Plus, the population should become more unhappy for a couple of turns after a suicide unit reaps it's damage.
Those are just ideas but it doesn't mean that I like the idea of suicide units.Comment
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Erh fittstim, I wasn't very clear about my point on "suicidal units".Originally posted by fittstim
Sverige till EM-final!!!
Kamikazes might be cool until some lame AI controlled civ starts using them on your unsuspecting cities/units. At least with bombers, cruise missiles and nukes, you had the option to build a city improvement which would negate the threat. What could justifiably combat both a suicide truck driver AND a kamikaze pilot?
I wrote
It seems very similar to yourKamikaze where the expression of a cultural (religious) aspect of Japan, not a "special unit" by its own common meaning. Suicidal terrorist that drive trucks or boat full of explosive to hit enemy aren't really different.
Under a "religious nationalism" or whatever Civ III will have as political/cultural naming, we can suppose to have "suicidal attack" order available to any military unit.
I added "political" to "cultural" because a democratic gov can hardly support a "suicidal mission" culture... if not calling it "heroic act"Suicide troops are not a government related phenomenom. They are based on local culture/religion.
My reference to SMAC "self destruction" command speak for itself. Did you played SMAC? If not, let me clarify that you can command "selfdestruction" of every unit, resulting in a blast that can damage surrounding units (the eight tiles around, I mean).
The damage provoked wasn't great, more like an artillery bombardment (in SMAC sense).
Balancing the damage vs. unit cost and unit regular attack is the most difficult part. I never used this feature in SMAC, if not for sake of testing it, but keeping it in CivIII can be a very small effort."We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
- Admiral NaismithComment
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Not exactly sure but i rembered seeing some documentary on TV a while back about how the Vikings had crossed as far as the Black sea via rivers and such.. they even had a reenactment to show ho it was posislbe , they apparently made rollers from trees and put the long ship on them to get from river to river !!Originally posted by uncle_funk
this sound pretty astonishing to me. That way, all scandinavians would contain Slavic blood, and we certainly don't look like Slavics. I'm pretty sure we´re a North-germanic tribe, we´re quite similar today...to the German's and English. Maybe you're thinking of the Finnish-Uralic?
They apparanetly are the forerunners of the people known as the Rus ....
With interbreeding with the asian tribes to the south the new tribes of russia probably came about..
Sorry i cant remeber more detail...
And the gauls were never a roman people, they may have been conquered by them but they werent roman... so once again the french ar enot descendants of Rome, after the fall of rome, the gauls were integrated into the Frank tribe... IIRCGM of MAFIA #40 ,#41, #43, #45,#47,#49-#51,#53-#58,#61,#68,#70, #71Comment
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