Using Military Units Like Rounds of Ammunition

[polypheus]

In the Civ1/Civ2, each military unit was supported by surplus shields from a particular city. This idea of support was stupid anyway but it did have the rather bizarre effect of actually sometimes wanting to kill off units in order to free up shields!

Now so far we know that Civ3's military will be supported by the national treasury. But I can imagine that similar suicide raids might be performed to free up money which is also kind of stupid.

Sometime should be done so that people can't get away from using military units like rounds of ammunition and having them slaughtered knowing that you can keep on producing more and more.

Several suggestions have been made in this regard.
1. Morale/War Sentiment - In this model, high casualty rates cause loss of morale and/or happiness so some care is taken to minimize casualties.

2. Population Loss when Military Unit is Built - Of course it can't be just one pop point per unit, but it a "tally" could be kept so that, say, every four units cost one pop point in a city maybe casualties rates start to matter.

Anyway, whatever feature is implemented, sometime ought to be done so that players can't treat the military units like rounds of ammunition. I can't recall that any nation was able to do this for too long, yet in Civ one could do these for 6000 years continuously!

[Sabre2th]

I think you're making a big deal out of nothing. Civ 3 is a GAME. The realism has to stop somewhere......

[Rasputin]

hmm troops used as ammo seems to me to have a lot of realsim, look at how in the past the troops were sent in mindlessly by the generals with out reagard for losses of personnel, all they cared about was winnnig or losin g the war, not lives...

only seems in modern warfare that we care about the boys coming back home enough ...

[Sabre2th]

I think poly means that you seem to have an unlimited supply of units in civ.

[Ralf]

Re: Using Military Units Like Rounds of Ammunition

Originally posted by polypheus
Now so far we know that Civ3's military will be supported by the national treasury. But I can imagine that similar suicide raids might be performed to free up money which is also kind of stupid.

In our real world the military actually cost money, and if you downsize the military-budget, money is going to be free up. And since units doesnt detract any pop-points, you can easily look at these "suicide raids" as peaceful disarmements instead.

Sometime should be done so that people can't get away from using military units like rounds of ammunition and having them slaughtered knowing that you can keep on producing more and more.

Well, you have a point here - especially the AI in Civ-2 was way too wasteful then it came to fruitless non-moveable trench-style warfare. Easy to control border-quarrels (repetitve one AI-unit potshot-attempts) and mindless coastal city-bashing with AI-wessels (which always costed the AI-civ in question much more, then it ever costed me). The AI must be much more "strong punch blitz-krieg" aware in Civ-3.

Several suggestions have been made in this regard.
1. Morale/War Sentiment - In this model, high casualty rates cause loss of morale and/or happiness so some care is taken to minimize casualties.

Yes, something like that could be implemented - but only affecting you at long protracted wars with lots of losses. I want it as an high-to-ceiling upper limit, in order to deter obvious misuse - not something that affects you immediately from your very first killed combat-unit.

2. Population Loss when Military Unit is Built - Of course it can't be just one pop point per unit, but it a "tally" could be kept so that, say, every four units cost one pop point in a city maybe casualties rates start to matter.

I prefer the "war-sentiment" model. No city-pop detraction for combat-units.

[Urban Ranger]

Ehhh, no. When you disband units in a city you get production points back, which is a good thing.

[Quartz Dragon]

Unit losses due to combat should cause unhappiness. But if deliberatly disbanded, unhappiness should not occure (in fact it could help the happiness rating)

A good example of empire wide military support is in MOO2.

[Sabre2th]

Large happiness penalties should only occur if there are heavy losses, or if your civ is constantly at war. A few scattered losses should not have too significant a penalty

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Ehhh, no. When you disband units in a city you get production points back, which is a good thing.

Good point! That slipped my mind. If I remember it correctly, you only got half the amount of shields back, but nevertheless...

[TechWins]

Anyway, whatever feature is implemented, sometime ought to be done so that players can't treat the military units like rounds of ammunition

I guess suicide bombers are just fictional. That's news to me.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Sabre2th
I think you're making a big deal out of nothing. Civ 3 is a GAME. The realism has to stop somewhere......

A very good post. My thought to.

[KrazyHorse]

I've agreed with this in other threads, and I'll agree again. The loss of a military unit should affect the happiness of your civ. Fighting a suicidal war should be punished. I know that this is unpopular with the wargamer crowd out there, but Civ is not meant to be played as a wargame.

[Quartz Dragon]

Originally posted by TechWins
I guess suicide bombers are just fictional. That's news to me.

Good point.

Suicide units could be a cultrual trait (certain cultures not penalized for unit loss).

[SerapisIV]

[sarcasm] Yaay...more racist unique civ attributes that have nothing to do with how your game and the civs within it develop[/sarcasm]

[- Groucho -]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I've agreed with this in other threads, and I'll agree again. The loss of a military unit should affect the happiness of your civ. Fighting a suicidal war should be punished. I know that this is unpopular with the wargamer crowd out there, but Civ is not meant to be played as a wargame.

Don't you think you're being a little ethnocentric? There are plenty of civilizations, historically and currently who had/have no problems with death for the cause. Dulce et decorum este pro patria mori! Kamikaze! Allah Akkbar!

Civ is not meant to be reflective of only one culture, either.