Anybody planning NOT to buy Civ3?

[Footie Mad]

Originally posted by Ralf


Well, I wont do that, but I will buy it instantly over the disk .

By the way. when does the game get here? Will there be a worldwide release or will the rest of the world get it after the US?
I suppose nobody knows, but has anything been said about it?

[Sabre2th]

I will be buying civ3 as soon as it comes out. It seems that reviews cannot always be trusted. I usually try to play a game for a bit before i buy it, but it IS Sid. If you can't trust in the almighty Sid, who can you trust?

[yin26]

Well, it's the lack of Sid that is in part making me so "blah" about things. While I understand that he doesn't like to work on a similar game (look at his amazingly varied credits), I was simply stunned after all the drama of losing the "Civilization" title to Activision and getting it back only to realize Sid is putting most of his creative energy into...a Golf sim.

A Golf sim, people!

Sorry, but Tropico is bound to be better in that genre (I love Tropico so far). And a similar game already came out and got blasted by critics. Still, I'm sure Sid will do great with his golf game...and I'm also sure his name will be on the Civ 3 box.

"Sid Meier's Civ 3"

It should read:

"Sid Meier's occasionally-looked-at-but-was-pretty-much-ignored-because-of-a-Golf-sim Civ 3"

Mind you, I have no problems with Sid moving on, and I'm sure he won't mind if several of us do the same.

[marcuspeddle]

I think I will buy it but I will try to wait until I see some reviews and lots of postings here at Apolyton. The diplomacy looks better and the trade system looks very interesting but after playing Civ II, SMAC, CTP (for one day), and CTP2 I don't know if Civ III will be able to keep my interest for very long. Although I like CTP2 I didn't play it for very long because I had played the other games. Civ III will have PBEM, however, so I think I probably will get it. Playing with people makes the game at least twice as playable because you don't have to deal with the AI.

I'm glad to hear that lots of you are highly educated people. I keep trying to justify the hours I spend on these games to my wife by saying, "No,no, it's not a game; it's a simulation . It's a thinking person's activity." She just says, "Yeah, whatever. Keep playing." I started a master degree in creative writing when I lived in Canada but gave up to teach in Korea. Then I started a masters in TEFL but gave that up because it was about as interesting as chewing cardboard. After I change jobs in September I'm going to apply for a master degree in humanities, creative writing option.

But I digress . . . . I'll buy the game.

[Alexander's Horse]

sadist

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
I am doing a PhD, I am involved in medical research.

Actually he just does cruel things to lab rats and calls it research.

[yin26]

It's a slippery slope to try to convince your wife that computer games are anything other than a waste of time, primarily for two reasons:

1) It's not time you spent with HER (though some couples actually play MP and LAN games together, if you can imagine that!);

2) Given #1, there's absolutely nothing in it for HER, even in terms of her husband's career/education/social development, etc.

Having said that, I think certain games absolutely CAN be a mental exercise. Chess, for example, is supposed to make various thought processes far more acute, so why not some computer games (I don't think FPSs fall into that category, but who knows?)?

Of course, you can play a game simply to become a vegetable. But I rather enjoy looking at various game mechanics and asking: "How close is this to real life? Can I draw parallels? Or is this just a fun puzzle to tweak with certain predictions in mind?" All of that is higher thinking in one form or another, and the fact that is comes in a FUN manner should in no way lessen its value.

But human beings (and, historically, the United States) in general has always looked at entertainment as anti-intellectual. Do you remember the Maypole of Merrymount by Hawthorne? In that, he writes about the early English settlers who dared celebrate in the forest by dancing around a Maypole as being harshly persecuted by Cotton Mather for being "lawless and lewd."

That same basic view is held of PC gamers...as slackers "wasting" precious time and resources better spent on something "meaningful." But more and more, particularly with games like Virtual U., games are being viewed as a potential tool for learning! In the case of Virtual U., a number of universities are even using the game for staff / student training.

What does this say of Civ? Well, I can pretty much tell you that if France had used Civ 2 to develop its foreign relations, we'd all be swimming in a sea of nukes by now. Oh, and there'd be a lot more cities. I mean, a LOT more.

[splangy]

i've put to much anxiusness into it not to

[yin26]

This also explains why I don't find much fun in a game once I've mastered it. There's not much thought left, just rote processes. Of course, many people find that process enjoyable. To be able to use all the skills they've gained and pound on the AI. It's an understandable impulse, but not one I find rewarding.

So unless Civ 3 makes me think in new and interesting ways, I can't see how it will be fun for me...in the "intellectual" sense of the word.

Indeed, one of the reasons I like Tropico so much is that you are playing to LOSE, or should I say: You are playing to see how long you can stave off your eventual overthrow. The game is designed for you to lose, and the number of tiny but interrelated ways you can delay that loss (or, sure, meet scenario goals) is very rewarding.

I love losing, and Tropico delivers. My greatest fear with Civ 3 is I'll install, put it on a hard setting, and win without much effort. Then what? Mods? Sorry. I'd rather not.

[Kurgan]

"There's not much thought left, just rote processes."

I agree with you, but if you can play it with other human players, from my point of view things change completely. First, then my objective will be to develop alliances and relations with other countries that follow the logic of the real international scene. Second, it is not possible (if playing with average players at minimum, not to say if they are as good or better than you) to win as in the normal games (against AI), because the balance of power will make alliances shift when one player gets too strong. So the challenge not only increases, but it changes in nature. If you have played "Empires in Arms" you will see what I mean. Then the only fear I have is how will they implement the multiplayer feature in the game.

[marcuspeddle]

buy over the disk?

This might be an ignorant question but what does 'buy over the disk' mean? I noticed someone said that in a previous post.

I bought CTP2 directly from the company because it wasn't released in other countries and I wanted an English manual. Boy, they really fleeced me with their courier fees. I tried ordering from other places first but they all said "not for export". I guess for Civ III I'll have to wait a while.

Concerning wives, I think I have the perfect one because she doesn't mind me playing games - er, thought-provoking simulations. She's usually busy doing her own thing so she's not computer jealous.

[yin26]

Anatolia:

Living in the same country as you (I sent you a personal mail on this site just a few minutes ago), I use http://www.cdmag.com/cgi-bin/order.cbi_home to get my stuff delivered. You end up paying about an extra $12 to get it shipped to Korea (you can also go the $20+ route to have it in 3-5 business days, but I don't mind waiting the 2-3 weeks).

But to have the game here, in English, pretty much whenever you want it, is worth the $12 IMO. I've had perhaps 10 games delivered to me that way and never had a problem.

[Grumbold]

$12 is considerably less than it costs to get US-release only games imported into the UK when you combine tax and postage so I heartily agree. I wish it was that cheap here. I think it is some secret American conspiracy to improve the profits of UPS and FedEx

[Robert]

oh well

I'm a little bit disapointed that people lik Yin26 act the predictable way.

If people have to wait for a long time, they're first excited, then very excited. Then they're getting impatient and then they start to wonder IF there's anything to be excited about.

In fact is it predictable that if you 'dream' about a game and later realise that the game isn't gonna be the same as your dream...... then it's a disapointment.

Of course I've been playing civ and civ2 since it's been released. And I've had much fun. And sometimes I just have enough of it. I haven't played civ for 1 year ! And now I've picked it up again recently and I'm enjoying it again now !

Of course even civ will become boring if it's something you're doing for years. But take a vacation from it, return to it and you'll love it again.

I'm really sorry, but I don't have any respect for people that are publicly saying that they're pherhaps not gonna like CIV3 while they don't even know what it's gonna be like ! I even think it's actually pretty stupid, and it shows off that you've got ways too much time on your hands to start topics like this.

Again, I've always had pretty much respect to Yin, and pherhaps that makes me more disapointed right now. It just makes no sence at all.

And yes, I'm going to buy the game for sure. Immediately.
I've had 10 years of fun with the civ series, why should I suddenly start to doubt about it with NO reason ?

CyberShy

[yin26]

First, as for your "too much time" on my hands remark, I work 7 days a week. Yes, re-read that. NO day off in a typical week. Care to compare your life with that? So, what that means is I won't be bothered with make-over of a game I mastered 5 years ago. I suppose YOU will...so who has more time on his hands?

Second, I think you miss my point entirely. I think Civ 3 will be a GREAT Civ game. My point is: I'm tired of the basic Civ formula, and I have no real reason to believe that Civ 3 will be anything too risky, do you? Sure, resources will be a nice touch, etc. But despite all our efforts to help Firaxis push the envelope, we'll have what looks to be Civ 2.5. No problem. I understand their decision.

So I think your criticism is off the mark. And if anybody has a "right" to say "Gee, I'm disappointed at what we have / haven't heard so far" it would be the leaders of the List. Why do you think I donated literally 100's of hours to that effort? 100's of hours to a guy working 7 days a week is quite considerable, I'm sure you agree. Oh, and did I mention I have a 2.5 year-old daughter and live in a foreign country (so have to go through all the aspects of learning a new language, culture, etc?).

Also, there is nothing "predictable" about my behavior as you define it. I was never excited in the first place. Nor did I complain when Firaxis didn't release information. In fact, I was AGAINST their posting ugly alpha-graphics, if you recall.

So, to recap:

0. I promise you have more free time than I do.

1. Civ 3 will be a good Civ game. But I'm tired of the formula since I bet I could install Civ 3 right now and beat it on hard level with almost NO effort. I'd rather play something challenging. How about you?

2. I never cared what info Firaxis released or when. But what they have released so far gives me more than enough to see that I'm right with #1. How about you?

3. In a sense, I've been disappointed since SMAC. Point out one time when I was excited. If you think about it, I've been very consistent. I just haven't voiced my opinions lately.

So, if you find the above "stupid," you certainly have a right to your opinion. But to lump me in with the other whining crowd is simply wrong.

Finally, I think you are angry that I might be right. At least you FEAR I might be right. Does the idea of an expansion pack appeal to you after all these years? Trust me. I hope I'm wrong. But I've been around this stuff a while and have developed a pretty keen sense. Perhaps you are just an Optimist? More power to you.

Take care.

[Colonâ„¢]

Cybershy, I haven't been playing civ2 for about a year and I was bored with SMAC after only a couple of weeks. That’s a bit longer than just a break so the game really will have to be innovative to make me buy it.

Overall, I don’t think it’s unfair to state you aren’t going to buy the game until you’ve read reviews and heard comments from buyers, especially when money is an issue.

Yin, re the learning process. That’s part of the bind Firaxis is in I mentioned earlier. Should they listen to people like you, veterans who want more complexity and bigger challenges, or to people who only occasionally play strategy games, or even games in general?
You can’t afford to let the fans down, but neither can you to neglect attracting new players.

European Universalis appears to be a game that tilted too much to the former (the civ and imperialism crowd), putting of newbies in the genre, while Sim City 3000 appears to have tilted too much to the latter, disappointing the vets.

Adding various difficulty levels, only partly alleviates the problem, since you can’t add or retract complexity.

Maybe Firaxis should try out creating entirely new games, as Maxis tried and succeeded in.