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  • Allied liberations and one last chance

    Two things in this post, really.

    First: have you ever been annoyed when you are attacked, and your ally gets involved and scoops up all of your captured cities, essentially having your ally capture your cities without having to declare war in you? I propose that it wouldn't take away fun factor or take a lot of time to have it so that when your allies liberate your cities, those cities revert to your control (or have a diplomatic agreement option in the alliance terms that that will be so). It always annoyed me to death to see my beautiful light-blue cities go white and then allied purple!

    Second, and possibly less liked: Maybe there should be one last chance for underground movements. What I mean is, when the last city of a country is captured, that country MAY get one last chance to uprise and take a couple of cities. This is both realistic and potentially fun, since this sort of thing has happened in history and wouldn't you love to take over that enemy nation that had you crushed for 50 years/10 turns? Your last city, if High-culture and captured by low-culture civs would probably like to rebel. Maybe a few units could be crawling around, trying to help out allied liberation (see above). Remember the French underground in WWI? And how many countries have been destroyed for centuries, just to reappear again almost unchanged. I can see this getting annoying if you finally take over your bitter rival and then it just shrugs off your control, so the rebellion should be rare and with a low - not impossible - chance of succeeding. It probably won't get in but I've always liked the idea of me getting one last chance if I look like I'm toast.

    Your thoughts?
    Your.Master

    High Lord of Good

    You are unique, just like everybody else.

  • #2
    The topic of co-allied liberations has been discussed LOTS AND LOTS!!! But I am glad you brought it up again, I think it needs refreshing.

    Here is my liberation model:

    Say...you get into a big bad war with another civ, and during that war you lose a couple cities. After a while, you ally with someone, then they help you in your war, and liberate one of your cities. Now, he has your city, and obviously you want it back, you can ask for it back (through diplomacy if course), and he has three choices,
    1. he can give it back, and it auto. becomes yours again.
    2. He can refuse.
    3. He can offer to compromise, for example, in exchange for the liberated city, he offers you 10 gold per turn or something.

    If your ally refuses to give your city back, then you have the choices of either ignoring the city and moving on, or stopping the alliance, or compromising for the liberated city.

    This would be the same with you if you liberated one of your ally's captured cities.

    Comment


    • #3
      i concur with el Diablo

      i do not want any of my powers taken away from me.

      alliances are temporary in civ.

      only one can win.
      "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
      - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto
        Say...you get into a big bad war with another civ, and during that war you lose a couple cities. After a while, you ally with someone, then they help you in your war, and liberate one of your cities. Now, he has your city, and obviously you want it back, you can ask for it back (through diplomacy if course), and he has three choices,
        1. he can give it back, and it auto. becomes yours again.
        2. He can refuse.
        3. He can offer to compromise, for example, in exchange for the liberated city, he offers you 10 gold per turn or something.

        If your ally refuses to give your city back, then you have the choices of either ignoring the city and moving on, or stopping the alliance, or compromising for the liberated city.

        This would be the same with you if you liberated one of your ally's captured cities.
        Your proposal is good, but I'll prefer two different diplomatic action: when your ally enter at war with you, there should be a general agreement about money, tech, trade pact, etc. to gain for war alliance (as USA did with Great Britain before starting help at WWII). The more you are in trouble, the higher the cost you must pay.

        Second diplomatic agreement should be at war end (or war pact end) when you should decide to honor your previus agreement or offer some change to it: the more your ally help you, the more he can ask (did your ally give you enough powerful units? did the war ended with a great victory or you simply survive?).

        In any case cities must automatically go back to previus owner: if you want a city as war payment you must ask for it at end war diplomatic point.
        "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
        - Admiral Naismith

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        • #5
          if i want to keep allied cities that i have captured, i will keep them.

          i've done this on several occasions, and sometimes a war breaks out of it.

          if you don't like it, don't ask for my help next time.
          "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
          - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by UberKruX
            if i want to keep allied cities that i have captured, i will keep them.

            i've done this on several occasions, and sometimes a war breaks out of it.

            if you don't like it, don't ask for my help next time.
            I can't bet on a diplomatic career for you, UberKruX

            WWII scenario: USA and Great Britain troops (and their allies) conquer Paris, Rome, West Berlin... and kept them forever

            Few years later: a bloody liberation wars start against the despotic Ally...

            No, I hope that in Civ 3 the need for strong allegiance is more relevant and useful than establish a worldwide empire.
            "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
            - Admiral Naismith

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Adm.Naismith



              WWII scenario: USA and Great Britain troops (and their allies) conquer Paris, Rome, West Berlin... and kept them forever
              Wasn't this the Soviet Union's plan vis-a-vis East Berlin, Prague, Budapest, and Warsaw?

              We never did get a bloody war of liberation, although I guess we were lucky about that.

              Comment


              • #8
                sorry for being an autocrat.

                but that whole idea of "helping an ally recapture his cities" seems LAME in my opinion.

                why would you be allied with such a weakling?

                is he your "science biatch"?

                paying you 100 gold per turn?

                or is she under your desk?

                if an ally wants me to send military aid, im all for it, as long as he's with me.

                if he loses his own damn cities and expects me to expend money / man power, only to GIVE the cities back, he's smoking crack or soemthing.
                "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
                - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

                Comment


                • #9
                  You crazy UberKruX? Lets say you got yourself a powerful ally. You going to endanger your alliance just for the sake of keeping one city? If he's as much of a weakling as you think he is, you're probably better off not even having him as an ally, since he'll suck you into needless war. You should have the choice.
                  12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                  Stadtluft Macht Frei
                  Killing it is the new killing it
                  Ultima Ratio Regum

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                  • #10
                    i think you got it reversed.

                    im the military one here.

                    and i would watch one of my finest allies die if he had nothing to offer me but friendship.
                    "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
                    - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      so, uberkrux, is there any point to allying in your mind?

                      The point of an alliance, in my mind, has always been for a pair of civs to protect eachother from other nations. And yes, friends protect each other. If the only way for england and germany to stay independent from france is for them to ally, and then england refuses to give back hamburg, their alliance goes poof. and then france takes over. Silly way for things to turn out.


                      What always annoyed me in civ 2 was that i could be friends with a civ for three thousand years, give them tech, protect them in war, and then for no apperent reason they cancel our alliance and sneak attack me. Huh. Firaxis ought to program grattitude in or something.

                      Oh, and Uberkrux, do you play diplomacy? I think it would fit your playing style indeed.
                      By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may get to be a boss and work twelve hours a day.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by UberKruX
                        if he loses his own damn cities and expects me to expend money / man power, only to GIVE the cities back, he's smoking crack or soemthing.
                        What's the whole point to have an ally doing to your Civ nothing better than your enemy does?

                        Also a bit weak ally can give you a help trading resources in exchange of your military help, or giving you free tech, or right of passage to a good point of the map...

                        If diplomatic part is done well in Civ 3 you must use others tactics than cut throats to any Civ in trouble. Sure, you can win as a world only despot, but this is a game you can win in others ways, and you should for sake of enjoyment.
                        "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
                        - Admiral Naismith

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What about a weak civ who has some rare resources. You could offer them protection for trade. Is that not worthy of an alliance. If they are on the other side of the world, and they are in at war, you help them out so you don't loose your resources. do you really want to have to look after recently captured cities on the other side of the world? Why not just give that civ some protection from your strong army?

                          I think you should liberate cities depending on your diplomatic agreements

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What about a weak civ who has some rare resources.
                            Also a bit weak ally can give you a help trading resources in exchange of your military help, or giving you free tech, or right of passage to a good point of the map...
                            read all my posts dimwads

                            i stated that i only help allies that help me in some way. (tech biatch, money, etc)

                            but seriously now, picture the scenario.

                            the Romans have rich oil fields, and you have been giving them 50 gold a turn for a few drums of oil. those rich oil-producting cities were taken over by the Greeks. You then go in and take the cities from the Greeks. So now you have 5 or so, already developed size 6 cities, making YOU oil for FREE and your large military presence in the area.

                            and the Romans want their cities back?

                            after the million gold I just paid them for the oil I used to make MY tanks that I sent to take over the Greeks cities? I have to give them back? and resume paying THE WEAKLING WHO CANT HOLD HIS OWN CITIES?

                            sounds like a plan to me.

                            and IMO, no one would sign an alliance where the terms are "you give me oil and i give you alliance". Sounds more like bullying than a friendship.

                            "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
                            - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by UberKruX




                              read all my posts dimwads

                              i stated that i only help allies that help me in some way. (tech biatch, money, etc)
                              Wow...this is the reason why I want the game to have something so that civs get ticked off at somebody who is a jerk (no offense, I know it's only a game) so that they'll gang up and kill you.

                              Perhaps as an option, so you still buy their game
                              Your.Master

                              High Lord of Good

                              You are unique, just like everybody else.

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