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  • How many cities max?

    We've had fairly thorough discussions so far about how many Civs there should be, but not-so-thorough discussions on the total number of cities.

    Q: how many cities do you think should be allowed in the world?

    My preference is for the maximum natural limit to be about 200 on a large map.
    The natural limit means there is space for 200 cities to be placed in "good" spots. More land will exist but the land will be crappier. Those additional cities will be more like outposts. You can built as many as you want, but naturally a good player will limit him/herself to building cities where useful.

    So if we start with 16 civs, if they're all equal (rare), we'll have about 12-13 cities each (plenty for a diverse world). There will essentially be no remaining "good" spots for planting cities (you can plant cities in deserts and mountains, but they'll be puny), so to gain more cities, you must conquer, bribe, negotiate, etc... or instead build up your cities into supercities.

    Of course, as time goes on, you'll conquer your neighbours, and the stronger civs will overpower the weaker ones, so that 2 or 3 superpowers will have 50-60 cities each (more than enough), and others will have fewer.

    By limiting the "good" space for more cities, conflict is forced upon the player at a certain point. No more limitless "free" expansion. This doesn't necessarily mean war, it just means competition for limited resources like land -> hence more excitement, more fun!

    For a normal medium map, I say 120-140.
    For a small map, 60-80.
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    Retired Justice of the Court, Staff member of the War Academy, Staff member of the Machiavelli Institute
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  • #2
    Exactly. Civ II was all about grabbing as much land as you could for the first little while, and then improving the resulting cities. It's always been too easy to expand and expand and expand without even so much as running into your adversaries. Some people seem to think that it's necessary for every civ to have 50 city empires; I don't.
    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
    Stadtluft Macht Frei
    Killing it is the new killing it
    Ultima Ratio Regum

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    • #3
      In civ 2 the city limit is 225 cities for all maps, while I never managed to reach that limit except for when I made scenarios I think it is a good one.
      There is no limitation to the amount of cities in the real world (except for space).
      No limit is necesary, if someone wants to fill the world whit cities let them do so, they will all start revolting pretty soon...
      No Fighting here, this is the war room!

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      • #4
        Space and communication delay based on distance from the capital should be the only limiting factors. I don't want to be told that a huge expanse of lush farmland and verdant hillside cannot be built upon just because some damn counter has reached overflow. The same goes for units, max pop in a city etc.
        To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
        H.Poincaré

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Henrik
          In civ 2 the city limit is 225 cities for all maps
          I think it was 255.
          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
          Stadtluft Macht Frei
          Killing it is the new killing it
          Ultima Ratio Regum

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Grumbold
            Space and communication delay based on distance from the capital should be the only limiting factors.
            Have you actually read some of the developing-info released from Firaxis and game-magazine previews lately? "Space and communication delay based on distance", was infact the ONLY limitation (besides the 255-limit) in Civ-2. In Civ-3 however, they have added an whole array of new built-in empire city-expansion limitations.

            I don't want to be told that a huge expanse of lush farmland and verdant hillside cannot be built upon just because some damn counter has reached overflow. The same goes for units, max pop in a city etc.
            I think that generally smaller map-sizes (Firaxis have announced that "overcompressed" gameplay is one of the design goals) combined with powerful anti-ICS; anti-BAB (bigger always better) and Rise-and-fall features implemented in the game, is more then enough, to counteract any ideas of ever reaching the max 200- or 255 cities limit (or similar max unit-limits).

            Managing unproportionally diarrhea-sized amounts of HP cities and HP combat-units is simply not feasible anymore. Besides; it just becomes inflationary in the end. In this respect, Civ-3 is promised to be a very different game, then the two previous games in the series. Many Apolyton-civers still dont seems to completely realize this.
            Last edited by Ralf; June 17, 2001, 04:03.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by KrazyHorse


              I think it was 255.
              yes you are right, stupid typo
              No Fighting here, this is the war room!

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              • #8
                255 This can be a problem with some gigamap scenarios. Try showing the world as it was in 1888 and you'll run into problems with the British and Russian Empires.

                I'd prefer 355.
                "Wait a minute..this isn''t FAUX dive, it's just a DIVE!"
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Seeker
                  255 This can be a problem with some gigamap scenarios. Try showing the world as it was in 1888 and you'll run into problems with the British and Russian Empires.

                  I'd prefer 355.
                  255 is a computer limit. If they shall rise it, will the next step be 512. They may also remove the limit, but that would cause ä game slowdown, as it is no fixed size city list.
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                  • #10
                    why bother limiting the number of cities in a game (assuming it causes no system resoucre issues)
                    "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
                    - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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                    • #11
                      What I never understood in Civ II was why they limited the number of separate land masses allowable. If you tried to put more on a map, you would get an error message.
                      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                      Stadtluft Macht Frei
                      Killing it is the new killing it
                      Ultima Ratio Regum

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                      • #12
                        To recap, I don't think an arbitrary limit should exist, but there should be limited "good" space to place cities. The player can litter the map with hundreds of cities, but only some of those will have good enough terrain to support a thriving city - so most players will naturally place fewer cities. That's what I meant by natural limits.

                        I think it'll add more fun and realism too, since there will be large tracts of uninhabited land (like deserts, mountain ranges, deep jungles, and the icy north) and cities will be concentrated in certain fertile zones. (Most of Ontario's population lives in the tiny but fertile St. Lawrence valley, not in the much larger northern shield lands).

                        What is this space and communication delay? Can someone explain to me how that works?
                        Does it mean that if I issue a command to a distant unit, it won't be carried out til next turn?
                        I don't think I've got the right idea here.
                        Proud Citizen of the Civ 3 Demo Game
                        Retired Justice of the Court, Staff member of the War Academy, Staff member of the Machiavelli Institute
                        Join the Civ 3 Demo Game $Mini-Game! ~ Play the Civ 3 Demo Game $Mini-Game!
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                        • #13
                          -512 should be the minimum needed for the maximum;

                          -I have hit 255 too many times to be satisfied with the low allowance for cities.
                          -->Visit CGN!
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                          • #14
                            with city number limit in place , you can utilise that tio your advantage by putting citys anymore , on moutnains etc, just to prevent your opposition from placing another city..

                            In recent games on gigaworld map we run out of citys and a number of civs had built citys needlessly simply to stop others building citys in better lands...

                            why limit city numbers, computers are way mroe powerful than civ 2 ones so lets utilise this pwer and allow unlimited city numbers, but make it harder to loo kafter many citys, bring in city civil wars etc !!!!
                            GM of MAFIA #40 ,#41, #43, #45,#47,#49-#51,#53-#58,#61,#68,#70, #71

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gramphos

                              255 is a computer limit. If they shall rise it, will the next step be 512. They may also remove the limit, but that would cause ä game slowdown, as it is no fixed size city list.
                              Or they could switch to 16 bits and have 65536 as the limit. It's no use fiddling around with single bits, esp. in a game like Civ.
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