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Killing the 6000-Year-Old-King

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  • Killing the 6000-Year-Old-King

    An issue that I've noticed coming up repeatedly is the "realism" question of you and your empire lasting from 4000 BC to AD 2020. I was thinking of something that would introduce a different element of play into the game, without drastically altering the way the game is played.

    Mortality of the Ruler.

    Every so often the King will die. This interval would be randomly determined each time and might be somewhere between, say, 20 and 60 turns (I know, not realistic in early phase of the game, but hear me out). Each time this happened, assume one turn of turmoil during the interregnum, at the end of which the player could select among several options:

    1. Same government with linear succession, as in Caesar to Caesar II to Caesar III
    2. Same government with new line -- Caesar is succeeed by Naughtius Maximus
    3. Entirely different government. Like revolution but perhaps with a shorter period of unrest.

    At the end of the game, you could lookback on the line of rulers, of all the diffferent government phases your civilization phase took.

    To reflect the tendency for governments to stagnate and revolt if too long under one type, introduce another random element. If too many successions without changing government type, the unrest period will be longer to reflect the people's dissatisfaction. To foster change, the three options listed above are listed in order of "tension".

    Factors influencing death of the ruler:
    1. Difficulty level. Not necessarily more frequently, but a broader range, like every 5-60 years at Deity, every 50-60 years at Chieftain.
    2. Wartime. The longer you're at war, especially in pre-industrial times, the likelier your heroic king might die in battle. In addition to the "troops-away" unrest, democracies will be more likely to revolt if there's an interregnum during a prolonged conflict.

    There were some other things relating to this as I thought of it last night, but they slip my mind at present. What say the general population?

  • #2
    If the leaders change shouldnt each new leader have a new mentality..at least in monarchies and despotisms. I dont like the idea it would complicate matters and not add to the fun.
    It's candy. Surely there are more important things the NAACP could be boycotting. If the candy were shaped like a burning cross or a black man made of regular chocolate being dragged behind a truck made of white chocolate I could understand the outrage and would share it. - Drosedars

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    • #3
      Probably the most unrealistic thing about civ, but one that, surprisingly, never shakes me.
      I always just figured my leader took an immmortality pill at the beginning of time, and took the reigns of power. being immortal, he's reverd almost as a god by his people, which is why he keeps getting ending up at the head of government no matter what it is.


      anyway, I don't really know what to think of your suggestion. I suppose it could work, but I'm comfortable with the old way.
      Any man can be a Father, but it takes someone special to be a BEAST

      I was just about to point out that Horsie is simply making excuses in advance for why he will suck at Civ III...
      ...but Father Beast beat me to it! - Randomturn

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      • #4
        I'm not a big fan of the suggestion. In Civ, half the fun is that I'm the leader of a people throughout the millenia, I'd rather not deal with intermediaries. MOO3 is currently working on a similar concept, though not of the main leader, I don't know how long each advisor/governor lasts, but it'll be interesting how that game interprets the idea.

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        • #5
          I think it's a great idea. It adds an element of realism, and tosses in some unexpected occurences to your schemes. Many times history has been changed because somebody kicked the bucket at the wrong time. As the player, you still control what is going on, but your puppet would need to change periodically. I'd view it as a minor but welcome hassle, forcing me to make adjustments to my game in order to continue. However, poor Six Thousand Year Old Man would probably need a new login...
          The first President of the first Apolyton Democracy Game (CivII, that is)

          The gift of speech is given to many,
          intelligence to few.

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          • #6
            What helps me get over this unrealistic aspect of the game, but with no feasible solution that I have heard is to not think of myself as the king, but rather, as the power structure of the empire/nation. I'm the merchants/businessmen, the bureaucracy, and the generals of my nation. Lets face it, no ruler has ever been able to rule without the support of at least a majority of one of these (if not all of them) on his good side. The army and the bureaucracy may be able to keep down the merchants in a communist state for a long period, but from recent history this doesn't look feasible either (Soviet Union [dissolution, return of capitalism]), China [special economic zones]), etc.

            What I'm getting at is that the aims of these groups is always the same in every country and era. Merchants: want to increase wealth/status/power. Bureaucrats: More infrastructure (so they will gain more wealth/status/power). Military: Better/Bigger military (so they will gain more wealth/status/power). Usually these groups collide. Your job is to decide how the power structure of your civilization comes about and changes through time.
            A thing either is what it appears to be; or it is not, but yet appears to be; or it is, but does not appear to be; or it is not, and does not appear to be.--Epictitus

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            • #7
              Yes, it does seem unrealistic to have one leader directing a civilization for 6 millenia...

              But, well, let me put it this way:

              In the game, one leader really is directing a civilization for 6 millenia. Unless you plan on changing personalities every 5 or 6 decades, this particular unreliastic aspect of Civilization(tm) is not going to change...

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              • #8
                If you wanted to change the leader, then 1/4 of the time you should end up as a coward (can't make war) 1/4 of the time as as inefficient (-50% revenues) and 1/4 of the time as insane (what shows up on your screen has very little to do with what's actually happening). There's a lot of inbreeding in royal families you know.
                12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                Stadtluft Macht Frei
                Killing it is the new killing it
                Ultima Ratio Regum

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                • #9
                  a good idea but there would end up being a minor revolt every 4 years in a democracy to pic the next president so that would make a bit boggled up.
                  Without music life would be a mistake - Nietzsche
                  So you think you can tell heaven from hell?
                  rocking on everest

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                  • #10
                    I don't like this idea one bit. It's just too complex.
                    However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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                    • #11
                      insane. heh heh. thats perty funny krazyhorse.

                      i think i've certainly seen some crazy ai leaders, like those morons with the one city that attack my eurasian empire. silly brits.

                      as to the changing times, what about civil war? That would be rather embarassing, you're in the middle of conquering the world / launching your spaceship / evolving / whatever, and half your emprie decides that last election was a bit fishy. heh heh.

                      while i think that moo3's idea of attention points is a creative and interesting idea, i don't think its one i'd like to see in civ. at least not until we've seen it in moo3.
                      By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may get to be a boss and work twelve hours a day.

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                      • #12
                        I know in Europa Universalis there's a model for changing rulers. It's not too far afield of your suggestion, and it's pretty fun. At the same time, for all my excitement at getting my hands into a persistent "reign" of command, if you will, it didnt' really wow me.

                        Kinda convinced me that this is one of those fun ideas that would neither help or hurt gameplay. Try Europa Universalis, if you haven't already, see if it's anything close to what you were thinking.

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                        • #13
                          The change of ruler in EU had relatively little effect on the game. It gave some bonuses to certain types of activity that the historical monarch was reputedly good at (like diplomacy or warfare) and triggered the chance of certain historical events. There certainly was no period of turmoil between monarchs. If you turned on certain options then the monarch could give you certain objectives to complete, but it was always better to pick your own first unless you were feeling masochistic because some are markedly easier and more sensible than others.

                          I always think of myself as the secret power behind the throne in these games. No matter who the ruler is, they accept your wise advice and follow your policies. EU acknowledged this role and refers to the player as the "gray eminence". Trying to change policies in democracies every 4-5 years would just be silly. The game is not designed to alow you to behave inconsistently and still remain in a strong position. To win you must be outperforming your international opponents, not modelling your internal political struggles.
                          To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
                          H.Poincaré

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                          • #14
                            Excuse me, but I think this is a crap idea, IMO. It is kinda one of the fun things about the game, that you are a ruler leading your nation through the whole of time and have somehow managed to circumvent the limits of mortality. This is a game and is being designed to be fun, and sometimes, you have to have a bit of give and take. As I remember seeing in someones signature once, if you want realism, play two turns and die
                            Speaking of Erith:

                            "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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                            • #15
                              I agree, it is a sillllly idea. i thought that civ was about rewriting 'history' your way. so what that this element isn't realistic, but you take any part of the game and look at from a microscopic level it looks crap compared to the 'actual' world. Instead look at the game from an overall perspective, and it works.

                              eg combat in civ2. alright is nothing compared with actual combat, but it worked for the game. (altough i do agree combat needs upgrading for civ3 ) making elements complicated just adds restrictions on the game.

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