New Idea for Civ 4: Supply Lines

[Willem]

Originally posted by Antrine
This last point is a cannon ball!! Every step of the way HAS TO CONSIDER IMPACT ON PROCESSING LOAD. That, even if you sport a fast computer today. Once the game gets a going it is so easy to just keep adding one thing then another.

But if adding range reduces the calculations required for pathfinding you're reducing processing load, not adding to it.

[Antrine]

Your right Willem, my comment was not meant in the negative. My apologies.

[Plotinus]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
The problem, Raster, is that they don't have ANY rules for Supply!!! I think that either a 'supply range' system, like Willem and myself have suggested, or a 'supply line' system like YC4B4U has mentioned (in the first part of his post), would be the best way to go!! Anything more than that would simply require TOO much micromanagement!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I agree, but I'm dying of exclamation mark overload!!!

[okblacke]

Re: New Idea for Civ 4: Supply Lines

Originally posted by Willem
First a preamble; Civ games have never had any sort of provision for supply lines, units have always had unlimited food/ammo/fuel, no matter how far they are from their home bases.

Civ 3 prohibits use of roads and other improvements in enemy territory. It also doesn't allow healing in enemy territory (until Battlefield Medicine). The deeper a unit strikes into enemy territory, the more it's at the mercy of said enemy, provided of couse the enemy has the wherewithal to attack, at least a little.

Those are the current abstractions of "supply lines"--the main problem with realizing anything more concrete is the classic Civ problem of scale.

Despite the presence of war (near constant in some cases), Civ is not a "war game". That's a non-trivial point. Civ 3 is the most war-like of them all, but I don't think that's necessarily a trend to be encouraged.

Having said all that, are there some good ideas here (and in other supply-line-based threads on 'poly)? Maybe. Or is this something that could be abstracted a little bit more "cruelly" (than movement reduction and non-healing) to get the point across. Maybe.

Basically, I see your suggestions resulting in a stack of infantry/supply wagons being generated along with any attack troop. I can see some fun in trying to attack those supplies rather than the assault force, I guess, and I could see it requiring navies to be beefed up (a very important point to some). I also see greater management being required.

I dunno. It doesn't seem terribly exciting. Perhaps because when I go to war, I focus on clearing a path to the intended target, so that my troops are always in my territory.

But then, I don't play C3 like a war-game. I like culture, science, commerce, diplomacy, and building. I'd probably use more espionage if it wasn't so weak. War is something I do out of necessity (said necessity increased by C3C), and occasionally greed. And, okay, occasionally revenge.

Aaaand, okay, rarely, opportunity. (When the AI decides it's time to wipe out one of the weaker AIs, I'll very rarely join in to prevent future trouble from an upstart. Normally I'll let culture flipping handle it or be poised to pluck the fledgling city when war does break out.)

As for a "lot of people" wanting a change like this, I suspect (and hope) Firaxis is not unduly influenced what turns Apolytoners on. We are a minority. A probably statistically insignificant, if very vocal minority. And only a small portion of Apolyton has weighed in on this matter, if I'm not mistaken.

None of what I say should be construed as trying to curb the dialogue, though. It's interesting and (who knows?) may actually affect Civ 4.

[ok]

[steven8r]

Ok, so now you can also build Supply Wagons to help your troops away from home. What's to keep a player from just (also) building 'wagon loads' of Supply Units to incorporate into their Stack O' Death? You'd still have the SOD issue--just the composition would change.

Steven

[Antrine]

Remember okblacke, minority interests at least, most often 'rule'. Whoever screams effectively, wins by default, 'the majority' follow as the sheep their programmed to be...

That said, I effectively play from the position of culture, science, commerce, diplomacy and especially 'building' however this is where I depart, 'all for to have a kick-ass war game'.

Happy gaming

[Willem]

Originally posted by steven8r
Ok, so now you can also build Supply Wagons to help your troops away from home. What's to keep a player from just (also) building 'wagon loads' of Supply Units to incorporate into their Stack O' Death? You'd still have the SOD issue--just the composition would change.

Steven

No, there'd be nothing to stop players from stacking a column with supply wagons, but at least there'd be a bit more decision making and planning involved in the process. The way it is now, you could almost play the game on auto-pilot. Just set a rally point near your enemy, wait until you get a sizable stack then attack. Having some sort range limitation would force the player to plan instead of just sitting back and waiting.

And it would eliminate a few things in the game that I myself find annoying. For instance, there'd be no more cavalcades of AI troops wandering across the continent in order to wipe out some stupid little barb camp. Or at least much less.

And it would allow for more defensive strategies. Attacks would come from the nearest city/supply source instead of just anywhere out of the blue. It would probably even help the AI in that regard since it would no doubt have more troops stationed in your line of attack, just waiting for some supply unit to give them more range. It would change the whole nature of combat in the game.

[shuttleswo]

I'm personally in favor of the civ2 chopper-esque idea The_Aussie_Lurker proposes - i think the AI could handle that pretty well, as it currently does know enough to withdraw units when HP gets too low (currently only from battle damage). I would suggest though that a better method than supply lines, or supply units (neither of which i think the AI, barring MAJOR improvement could handle effectively) Would be the old pillage button. When in enemy territory just pillage an improved tile and fill your HP back up. Just like Sherman & Hannibal!
It could be either just the pillaging unit getting the benifits, or all the units on that square, or a certian improvment yeilds different amounts of HP that can be divided between units (roads being the least, farms the most mines somewhere inbetween) I imagine that testing would need to be done to determine how powerful to make that feature.

As for naval units, add the ability to pillage costal squares to refresh HP, and have increasing range with tech, nuclear powered units would be unlimited range (e.g. no HP loss) I can already imagine a viking UU that's special feature would be a high success rate of pillaging costal squares.

These features are easy to understand and use; and reflect reality in a good way (for those who like reaility in the game) It also could make ROP agreements really interesting as your units could move thru that territory without HP penalties.

It would also put an end to the 'zulu choke' the more i think about it the more i personally like that idea.

[Antrine]

shuttleswo, I think you have hit a wonderful nail with a great hammer (idea). This, maybe COULD BE DONE NOW in CSC updates now in the works!?!

Are you listening Firaxis, my philosophy is on the line.

[okblacke]

Originally posted by steven8r
Ok, so now you can also build Supply Wagons to help your troops away from home. What's to keep a player from just (also) building 'wagon loads' of Supply Units to incorporate into their Stack O' Death? You'd still have the SOD issue--just the composition would change.
Steven

Almost. Except that, due to the limited range proposed, you'd have to divide your forces the deeper you struck into hostile territory.

So, yeah, you start out with Supplier in your stack of doom, and you start your march into enemy territory. But wait, your supply wagons won't supply more than three squares away from a friendly source.

So, now you gotta leave at least one Supplier behind if you want your troops to go any further without damage.

Move three more squares and, same thing. You need to leave a Supplier behind. And, of course, more infantry to protect it.

What it adds is an element of strategy, such that rather than attacking your main force, your enemy can attack your suppliers.

Some other thoughts:

* This is obviously for people playing larger maps. Suppliers would hardly be relevant on a tiny map.

* It's also obviously for people targetting cities deep inside others' territories. I generally don't do that because of the culture flipping and the difficulty of holding those targets. It would probably work best with some other rule mods, like "sacking the Capital results in instant capitulation" or something.

* Pillaging to refresh is a historically accurate concept. But that wouldn't include roads.

* #1 problem I see with it is that it's not an intuitive concept and might be very difficult to get across to newer players. No one wants to see their troops weakening without knowing why.

* Some troops should/could be self-contained, making for some interesting UU possibilities.

[ok]

[Willem]

Originally posted by okblacke


* This is obviously for people playing larger maps. Suppliers would hardly be relevant on a tiny map.

Not necessarily. Even on a tiny map it will put an end to a Warrior or Archer wandering the landscape to the other side of the continent. The early units would have to stay fairly close to home until you get a few supply units built, you can't just gather a large early force and wipe out your neighbour right away, you'd have to plan for it.

[Tattila the Hun]

How fast would conquered cities be incorporated into the supply schemes? Possibly with smaller rate...

This could also be an addition to diplomacy screen, ie, if you don't have the time, or the resources to expand supply ranges for fast advancing attack, you could "persuade", or bribe another civ to lend its lines, or even chip in for the needed supplies.

It would make paratroopers useful... For example, normal unit, moving into the path of a supply line, would implement 1/3 decrease in available supplies for the units on the business end of the army. Fortified units would stop 2/3. Paratroopers would have a flag, something like "full interdiction"...

[shuttleswo]

Originally posted by okblacke


* Pillaging to refresh is a historically accurate concept. But that wouldn't include roads.

* #1 problem I see with it is that it's not an intuitive concept and might be very difficult to get across to newer players. No one wants to see their troops weakening without knowing why.

* Some troops should/could be self-contained, making for some interesting UU possibilities.

[ok]

I don't think the concept is that strange - the idea that you can't use roads in enemy terratory seems intuitive, that you would slowly loose health when essentially engaged in combat (which invading armies essentially are) seems intuitive. If HP were described as stamina it almost explains it's self. when actually DOING something a unit has costs.

I agree with the UU possibilities, particularly with naval units, I'm not going to go as far as say that they would make a civ useful for having a naval UU, but it's certainly more intresting than a man-o-war currently is.

[okblacke]

Originally posted by Willem
Not necessarily. Even on a tiny map it will put an end to a Warrior or Archer wandering the landscape to the other side of the continent. The early units would have to stay fairly close to home until you get a few supply units built, you can't just gather a large early force and wipe out your neighbour right away, you'd have to plan for it.

On a tiny map, you'd end up feeling rather cramped by it. But perhaps a little cramping is in order.

Hmmm. Military supply could be an ancient era tech requiring warrior code, the wheel...logistics, call it. Suppliers would start as carts and get upgraded to wagons, then trucks, and perhaps have their range increased by writing, printing press, computers....

One thing I do like about the supply range idea is that it plays into some of the ideas I was contemplating for culture.

The idea that you're going to send settlers out in 3,000 BC on a thousand year trek to a new city site, and when they get there, those people are going to fold neatly into your civ--it's a bit far-fetched, to say the least.

REX and rushing are probably the key weaknesses of Civ going back to the beginning.

[ok]

[Skanky Burns]

Reminder:
The Civilization Games General/Future forum is a much better place for Civ 4 ideas. Particularly because similar ideas are being made and sorted by catagory so, should Firaxis choose to read them, they will be able to see what we would like in Civ 4.