New Idea for Civ 4: Supply Lines

[Willem]

Originally posted by MattPilot

Also make an algorithm for the workers to build more fortress' (i don't think they build any at this point).

That would certainly be a key factor. The way I see it, as soon as you make contact with a civ, the AI would calculate the shortest distance to your nearest city and send out Workers to start building a string of forts along the way, adjusting the path as each empire grows. Since the human would be doing the same, they'd eventually meet somewhere in the middle.

So the earliest conflicts would be for control of the Fortresses and the supply line that both civs have developed, instead attacking the cities directly. That wouldn't happen until later when either of the civs controlled enough of the supply line to bring them within range.

[Willem]

Originally posted by ratster
No more sending those ships with a settler and a unit to a far off island then?

Not necessarily. But you'd have to build up a supply route first, you couldn't just send a Settler to the other side of the world and set up shop the way you can now. You'd need a string of supply ships, along with ones to guard them, before you could send out that last ship with the Settler in it.

Supply is always agood idea. How about they go thru hitpoint reduction untill they reach 1HP, then they have to stop moving untill they are resupplied. This could be done just like normal healing; they gain 1 hitpoint per turn, as soon as they have more than 1 HP they can start moving again. They gain 1 hitpoint even if they are out of supply(as long as they don't move). This would represent a units abilty to forage. Given the scope of the game this isn't unreasonable for any unit in any era.

That would make sense for early units that tended to carry their weapons with them and didn't require fuel. But how does a Tank replenish it's ammo and fill up it's gas tank if it's just sitting on some farmer's field somewhere? It would have to represent more than just food supplies at some point in the game. Though certainly early on that would be enough. Generally in a war, if supplies are running low, one Tank gets cannabalized in order to keep the others moving.

[Willem]

Another idea that just popped into my head the past while, and one that seems much more logical, is allowing the RF of Supply units to compound. Meaning that if I have a stack with a Wagon, it has an RF of 4. If I add another Wagon, it would than have an RF of 8. So with a Fortress nearby, that column can now move 16 squares as opposed to 8 before.

That would eliminate the need for the hit point penalty by only allowing the stack to move within it's range, or back towards it, but not advance any further. If you want it to continue, you would have to add more Supply units. The penalties would then only take effect if any of those Wagons are destroyed through bombardment or a stealth attack.

This would probably level the field between the AI and the human as far as range is concerned. And it would introduce a much more logical target for stealth attacks as well. The Supply units themselves would represent the supply line. Take them out and you cripple the entire column and force it to retreat.

[ratster]

That would make sense for early units that tended to carry their weapons with them and didn't require fuel. But how does a Tank replenish it's ammo and fill up it's gas tank if it's just sitting on some farmer's field somewhere? It would have to represent more than just food supplies at some point in the game. Though certainly early on that would be enough. Generally in a war, if supplies are running low, one Tank gets cannabalized in order to keep the others moving.

Like I said; given the scope of the game it makes sense for units to forage (repair), those tanks are there(in the farmers field?) for a year(at least), I think they could find some food/ fuel /ammo/whatever in that time, or maybe walk home and get some.

I'm not sure if having forts provide supply makes any sense in the game(as it stands now). Unless you change their construction cost/procedure, they're essentially just structures with no cost or value unless occupied by unit.

Complex supply rules would be inconsistent with the game design. Its gotta be simple, otherwise your trying to make a wargame out of a game that wasn't designed to be one(and falls far short of being one).

[ChrisiusMaximus]

That sounds great Willem. The supply wagons could also perhaps need a safe route back to your lines in a way that Johann suggested.

Say you had a column with enough supply units to go deep into enemy territory or no mans land, you should have units stationed to prevent the AI cutting off your supply route by circling around you and cutting roads etc.

Probably more important in later stages of the game.

Often in my games of civ3 when I have cities either side of a civ who I have a ROP with I will make a road or rail straight through their territory and park a unit on each tile necessary to maintain access at all times. I do it in a way so that the AI civ can still move his units around his own territory by only using North South East or West directions in the route. This gives me a secure route through my allies land at all times, as a gesture I will also improve those tiles I am sitting on for the benefit of the AI ally, but if he gets shirty and decide they dont want the ROP anymore then of course I have no choice but to annex their cities

Back on topic, if you were in enemy territory with supply trucks, then you would need a safe route for those supplies to move along. Perhaps not a unit guarding each tile but some kind of improved outposts guarded by a unit. As long as an outpost is entact the the section of the route it can see remains safe no matter what enemy units are near or around it. It would make sense to guard those outpost/lookout towers well.

Perhaps the range an outpost sees should be increased to make this more viable.

[Willem]

Originally posted by ratster


Like I said; given the scope of the game it makes sense for units to forage (repair), those tanks are there(in the farmers field?) for a year(at least), I think they could find some food/ fuel /ammo/whatever in that time, or maybe walk home and get some.

So what's the difference between that and what we have now? There'd be no point in any sort of change if it's only going to be as minor as you're suggesting. And judging by the responses I've been getting from my ideas, a lot people would like to see a change.

I'm not sure if having forts provide supply makes any sense in the game(as it stands now). Unless you change their construction cost/procedure, they're essentially just structures with no cost or value unless occupied by unit.

As I've mentioned, this is an idea for Civ 4. Certainly it doesn't make sense with the current game, but that doesn't mean that the role of Forts can't be reworked in the next version.

Complex supply rules would be inconsistent with the game design. Its gotta be simple, otherwise your trying to make a wargame out of a game that wasn't designed to be one(and falls far short of being one).

That's why I'm advocating a simple approach to supply. I don't think what I'm suggesting is complex at all. And whether you think so or not, this is a wargame, combat plays a major role throughout the game. It's pretty rare to play without getting into a major conflict at some point. So there's no reason why it can't be made to at least resemble real life situations.

[Willem]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
That sounds great Willem. The supply wagons could also perhaps need a safe route back to your lines in a way that Johann suggested.

Another thing that I thought of, since the game has to calculate the range of the stack from the nearest supply source, the line it uses for that calculation could be visible on the map. And all you'd have to do to sever the line would be place a unit on top of it. That would cancel the RF of the supply units in the stack until the line was cleared of enemy units. So you'd want to either have some units patrolling the line, or station some along it's path in order to secure it.

Back on topic, if you were in enemy territory with supply trucks, then you would need a safe route for those supplies to move along. Perhaps not a unit guarding each tile but some kind of improved outposts guarded by a unit. As long as an outpost is entact the the section of the route it can see remains safe no matter what enemy units are near or around it. It would make sense to guard those outpost/lookout towers well.

But then why not just build a Fort instead? It would have a better defensive value than an outpost. That would also shorten the supply route since it would now act as a supply source. Provided it was built within range of the previous Fort of course.

[PrinceBimz]

Willem, this is an excellent idea. I really like how it can add supply units such as a supply ship. How you describe the supply ship working is great! Those ships can even provide supplies to other ships while at sea, effectively extending their range. No doubt all of this would make CIV even better.

[Panzer]

Great idea, this also takes exploration of the world to a whole new level. No longer will a Warrior be able to wander all over the world in 3000 BC, since the majority of the map would be outside his range because your empire has very few cities, thus limiting the range of exploration. At first you'll only be able to scout the area around your capital but as your empire grows in size your scouting range will increase. This makes units like explorers and scouts much more useful (I suggest giving them at least twice the range of normal units, so they can scout out larger areas and discover potential city sites so you can start expanding towards these areas).

[YC4B4U]

Why do we want to have supply? Is it just a cool feature that will confuse and confound the ai? Or does it have some purpose to enhance the gameplay?

[Gramphos]

Sullpy will add more to strategy i the game.

[YC4B4U]

Please explain it as though I am not too bright.

How does it improve strategy?

I like the idea because it has the potential to limit early expansion and limit contact with other civs. It also has the potential to make certain landscapes barriers to movements (particularly arctic and desert). I get the feeling that corruption is intended to do this in a limited sort of way in Civ 3.

Supply also has the potential to make the age of discovery more interesting. It could be set up so that you would have to rely on the good will of other civs to get resupplied - otherwise ... and also there would be less potential to sail the whole world before AD.

That is my 2 cents

[steven8r]

Supply lines/units sounds like a good idea. I am especially glad that you came up with a way of implementing this. It's one thing to merely suggest something, and a whole quantum leap forward to not only suggest an idea, but also ways to implement it. to Willem

Just a thought on the current game. I think the 'Supply' idea is at least partially already in this game. Specifically w/ the Settler unit. It takes 2 pop to build, but when you found a new town, you only get 1 pop. I think this represents the extra supplies and equipment required to establish another town.

Your idea of having a 'supply wagon/train/truck' could be easily implemented into a new game and the AI would have to account for that, but that's a whole new game from this one.

Steven

[Willem]

Originally posted by Panzer
This makes units like explorers and scouts much more useful (I suggest giving them at least twice the range of normal units, so they can scout out larger areas and discover potential city sites so you can start expanding towards these areas).

I think Explorer units should have unlimited range, just like we have now. This would reflect their ability to hunt and live off the land. Ammo etc. wouldn't really be a consideration with them because they don't really have any to begin with.

[Willem]

Originally posted by YC4B4U
Please explain it as though I am not too bright.

How does it improve strategy?

Tactics would be a better term than strategy. You'd have to make a few more desicions before you sent your troops across the continent to wage war. Although strategy would come into it if there was a way of severing an opponents supply lines. You'd have to find a way of sending troops in behind the advancing force in order to cut it off.

I like the idea because it has the potential to limit early expansion and limit contact with other civs. It also has the potential to make certain landscapes barriers to movements (particularly arctic and desert).

Well that's what originally got me to thinking about it. There was a discussion in another thread about having some limits to early expansion, instead of being able send units off the far side of the world right of the bat the way we can now. Adding a range attribute would do this nicely.