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New Idea for Civ 4: Supply Lines

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  • New Idea for Civ 4: Supply Lines

    Ok, this idea has been going around in my head ever since I read a thread about some ideas that Jesse was bouncing around. I can’t seem to get it out of my mind so I guess I’ll just have throw it out there and see what people think.

    First a preamble; Civ games have never had any sort of provision for supply lines, units have always had unlimited food/ammo/fuel, no matter how far they are from their home bases. I think this denies us a lot of strategic possibilities, especially when it comes to naval combat. Now I know that some you are already thinking “It’s to complicated to implement.”, but I don’t think it has to be. Here’s some of my ideas as to how to make it work.

    Every unit and every supply source; i.e. City, Colony, Fortress/Outpost etc. would have a number I’m calling a Range Factor. The Range Factor (RF) of the unit is multiplied by the RF of the nearest supply source which would give it the maximum distance that unit can move without penalty. If it moves beyond that range, it takes a percentage risk each turn of losing a hit point, much like Galleys now take a risk of sinking if they travel in Oceans. If it Fortifies on a square and doesn’t move, there’s no risk of taking damage. Only while a unit is on the move does it suffer any penalties.

    For an example, if Cities have an RF of 4 and Fortresses/Colonies are 2, and a Horseman has an RF of 3, it could safely move 12 squares from a City, or 6 from a Fortress/Colony. Anything beyond that and it risks a 50% chance of losing a hit point each turn that it continues to move. As well, some units such Scouts and perhaps certain UUs would have an infinite RF, to reflect their ability to forage and live off the land. Since all of this would be determined by a single number, it would be very easy to make it moddable.

    And some of these numbers could increase with certain techs/improvements. For instance, Engineering could increase the RF of supply sources by 1 (or more) to reflect the improvement in road construction. Connection of a supply source to other cities via a Railroad could increase it again, to reflect it’s ability to quickly draw supplies from other centres, not just it’s own. And finally, Motorized Transport would add a further increase because of the more efficient transportation methods being used.

    As well, some units can devolve as they suffer hit point losses. For an example that I’ve used elsewhere already, a Knight happens to be riding a perfectly good food source. If that type of unit falls below 1 hit point while in the field, it loses its mount and becomes a Medieval Infantry, and continues on foot, with all but maybe one of its hit points. As well, it would lose a ranking, i.e an Elite unit becomes a Veteran, since it wasn’t trained for that type of combat. This devolution could even continue as a reverse upgrade path, so the Veteran Medieval Infantry becomes a Regular Swordsman, becomes a Conscript Warrior, before you actually lose the unit altogether due to starvation. For later era units, Tanks would devolve to an Infantry unit, which would devolve to a new type that fights using bayonets and/or hand-to-hand.

    When it comes to moving in stacks, the entire column would use the RF of the best unit in it. So if you had 5 Catapults (RF-1), 5 Swordsman (RF-2) and 5 Horseman (RF-3), the entire stack would use an RF of 3. This would reflect the fact that a Horse can carry more than a single man is able to, so it could carry additional supplies for the entire stack. As well, there could be a new type of unit called a Supply Unit, in this case a Wagon, which could be added that might have an RF of 4. And with different techs, new Supply Units come into play, with even higher RF numbers. Supply Truck with Motorized Transport for instance, RF of 6? Keep in mind that the mumbers I’m throwing out are just examples. And like I said before, they would be fully moddable, being determined by only a single setting.

    In the case of Sea units, I think this concept would open up whole new areas for naval conflict/supremacy as well. My idea is that if a special supply ship is parked along the coast, it acts just like it was a Fortress/Colony would on land. That would give any unit nearby an increase in range. If that supply ship is attacked and destroyed, the land units would start to suffer from hit point losses if they tried to advance further.

    Well that’s not exactly it in a nutshell, but that’s my ideas so far.

  • #2
    Well Willem, you definately have my interest and vote. Firaxis are well listening to these great ideas?

    Sincerely,
    The Graveyard Keeper
    Of Creation Forum
    If I can't answer you don't worry
    I'll send you elsewhere

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    • #3
      Sounds like a great way of implementing it.
      Creator of the Civ3MultiTool

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      • #4
        This wouldn't hurt my feeling any but it hasn't a snowball's chance with the current development team. They apply a threshold test, i.e., can the AI deal with it? If not, forgetaboutit.

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        • #5
          best damn idea i've heard sofar (excluding mine of course hehe)

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          • #6
            I like the idea but without the unit devolve thing. When so many hitpoints have been lost then it would be less complicated to just have the unit die of starvation.

            Its certainly a good idea, and it will be interesting to see if and how it gets implemented
            A proud member of the "Apolyton Story Writers Guild".There are many great stories at the Civ 3 stories forum, do yourself a favour and visit the forum. Lose yourself in one of many epic tales and be inspired to write yourself, as I was.

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            • #7
              same as chris - i don't like the devolve thing either.

              Btw, one way to implement it for the AI is to tell it not to move beyond the allowable range. Also make an algorithm for the workers to build more fortress' (i don't think they build any at this point).

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              • #8
                It is time for all good AI's to evolve. Open up the programming sequences and routines so some others of us can have a crack of building some intelligence into AI behavior. Other games are heading this direction. Who ever arrives will win the pie.
                The Graveyard Keeper
                Of Creation Forum
                If I can't answer you don't worry
                I'll send you elsewhere

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                • #9
                  That is a great idea, Willem. I think the damage for streching the Supply Lines is too powerful. How about just reducing its movement rate?

                  Please apologize if I shouldn't post this here, but I have an idea and I don't think it is as important as to open a new thread. It's about Commercial Routes:

                  Imagine you have a, say, Spanish city (yours) recently taken off the Persians, which is surrounded by Persia's empire (it's in the middle of it) with a road connecting it to the rest of your Spanish empire. The problem is that that road goes across Persian territory. In the game, that makes it useless. You would like luxuries or strategic resources to get to that city.
                  Now to the point: What I purpose is that, if all the road squares in Persian territory are ocuppied by my troops making a line from the conquered city to neutral (or my) territory, then that road is considered secure for commercial transit (all the road length in enemy territory is controlled by me), and luxuries can reach that isolated city without problem. The same would happen with sea units: if they make an unbroken line across enemy territory, they would provide for a secure maritime route for merchant ships.
                  "Nuestros enemigos son imaginativos y están llenos de recursos; nosotros, también. Nunca dejan de buscar nuevas maneras de perjudicar a nuestro país y a nuestro pueblo; nosotros, tampoco." George W. Bush

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                  • #10
                    That is also a very good idea Johann.

                    Reminds me a little of trade routes in CTP that you could pirate with a unit, which would be a nice addition to civ4
                    A proud member of the "Apolyton Story Writers Guild".There are many great stories at the Civ 3 stories forum, do yourself a favour and visit the forum. Lose yourself in one of many epic tales and be inspired to write yourself, as I was.

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                    • #11
                      Supply lines is nice.

                      Just need an AI competent enough to use them.

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                      • #12
                        No more sending those ships with a settler and a unit to a far off island then?

                        Supply is always agood idea. How about they go thru hitpoint reduction untill they reach 1HP, then they have to stop moving untill they are resupplied. This could be done just like normal healing; they gain 1 hitpoint per turn, as soon as they have more than 1 HP they can start moving again. They gain 1 hitpoint even if they are out of supply(as long as they don't move). This would represent a units abilty to forage. Given the scope of the game this isn't unreasonable for any unit in any era.

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                        • #13
                          I really like the supply line idea, Willem. The devolving unit idea might be too much, but very well thought out. Supply units would make great targets for air units in a war. Might make fighters bombardment useful against something.

                          Ratster, good tweak idea regarding "foraging".

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jimmytrick
                            This wouldn't hurt my feeling any but it hasn't a snowball's chance with the current development team. They apply a threshold test, i.e., can the AI deal with it? If not, forgetaboutit.
                            This is an idea for Civ 4, not for the current game. Granted that the AI couldn't handle something like this now, but that's not to say it couldn't with the next incarnation, especially if it was designed for this type of activity in mind.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
                              I like the idea but without the unit devolve thing. When so many hitpoints have been lost then it would be less complicated to just have the unit die of starvation.
                              Yeah well I kind of agree with you there. I just included that to please the conquerors in the crowd who wouldn't take kindly to having their attack force dwindle to nothing along the way. At least with devolution, they'd probably arrive with some sort of column intact, even if they're of poor quality.

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