Why are Musketmen so bad?

[geniemalin]

Pikemen: Cost 30, defence 3
Musketmen: Cost 60, defence 4
Riflemen: Cost 80, defence 6

in terms of cost/defence ratio they are the worst defensive unit in the game.

The attack strength of 2 is fairly useless against anything of the appropriate era other than longbowmen.

As noted in other threads, Cavalry can often be a gamebreaker - maybe that's not because Cav are too strong but that Musketmen are too weak.

I noticed the improvement to Musketeers - maybe if the basic Musketman were 2/5/1 (even without bombard) it would make it worth the cost.

In fact, as Riflemen aren't usually around for that long before being supplanted by Infantry, maybe they could go up to 4/7/1 as well?

Given the prevalence of trebuchet/artillery it's not going to make cities invulnerable, but it might make the MM a useful defender even at the start of the Cavalry age ... any thoughts?

[Vince278]

Those first firearms were difficult to make and maintain.

[Kuciwalker]

I have a related question:

Pikemen: cost 30, defense 3, attack 1
Legionaries: cost 30, defense 3, attack 3

Even though Legionaries are a UU, they have a 2 bonus relative to Pikemen, even if they are based off of Swordsmen.

[Vince278]

A good pike is harder to produce than a gladius. They are also harder to use properly. The role they play are different. A good swordsman can take out a pikeman anytime (just get inside the reach of the pike) but a phalanx of pikemen will give anyone a hard time (foot or mounted).

[Paddy]

Yep, I reckon I would be happier with a sharp sword then a standard musket on a battle field... At least you know where the damage is going to happen...

[Vince278]

Swords were in regular use up to the early 20th century in cavalry and some infantry (often in combination with other weapons).

Swords do have a quicker reload time than muskets.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Vince278
A good pike is harder to produce than a gladius. They are also harder to use properly. The role they play are different. A good swordsman can take out a pikeman anytime (just get inside the reach of the pike) but a phalanx of pikemen will give anyone a hard time (foot or mounted).

I'm talking about balance, not realism.

[Vince278]

It would be difficult to explain some game elements without drawing comparisons to their real world counterparts. Otherwise, we really are discussing the difference between apples and oranges.

[MrWhereItsAt]

This is part of the glory of Rome and the Legions. If you have enough of them you can take down Pikemen easy.

The point is that, with Pikemen fortified in a town Knights still have a lot to contend with. Musketmen, although expensive, give you that extra little bit that makes it even harder. It's not the per defense point cost that matters, it's the probability of a successful defence against the attackers of the day.

[CerberusIV]

If you want to talk real world the game isn't that far out. The early firearms were able to stop a charge by knights but the initiative did then swing back to cavalry for a while. Up to quite late in the English civil war and the 30 Years war cavalry could rout anything less than good infantry if the charge was properly prepared and supported. It was only from the mid 18th C that disciplined infantry with flintlock muskets really got the upper hand.

Cavalry are a bit strong in the game from a historical perspective but if the attackers couldn't overcome the defenders fairly regularly there would be a large stretch of most games where offensive wars were only possible at an enormous cost in casualties. It really has to be as it is for the purposes of the game.

Having said that I do think musketmen are overpriced and edited my PTW games to have them only cost 50 shields, which seemed to work OK and was more reasonable.

[swat-spas2]

In terms of gameplay they are overpriced. This is the main flaw, you easily build the necessary cavalry to take out a musket held town (especially when they retreat too). Their historical effectiveness is fairly accurate though. First firearms took armored knights out of business. But once employed on horseback, they only added to a mounted unit's firepower and effectiveness. Once you get to rifles the range and accuracy factors began to outclass the horse mounted charge, thus why rifleman should be what you'd need against cav. That said, I modded the cost down on muskets (and rifles for that matter), considerably. This makes it a bit easier on the computer since I play sp mostly... they actually have a number of (inexpensive) defensive units to my assault force to contend with. I suppose it mostly just saves me some gold.

[Bleyn]

Actually, the real power of the Musket-era Cavalry is morale related, more than firepower related. Military Historians have done studies of post-battle medical reports and soldiers diaries and such. These studies have shown that the sword or lance armed cavalrymen did very little real damage to foot soldiers.

What they were able to do however, especially in the charges, was break the morale of poor quality foot soldiers and rout them. And in that day and age, an enemy routed was an enemy defeated. The emphasis for a good couple hundred years was on commanding the battlefield at the end of the day, and not so much on actually destroying the enemy completely.

I'll edit this or add another post to explain more later, but gotta run for a bus now...

[mimi]

Because they need a spanking... that's why. Give 'em a spanking I say!

[Shogun Gunner]

A common strategy was to use pikes in a square formation with musketeers inside the square firing at the enemy. These two unit worked together in real life...I try to follow a similiar strategy in Civ3 by stacking one of each together...in a similiar manner to spearman + archer, but you don't get the first bombard capability with the pike/musket combo like the spear/archer combo, nor should you....

[Mad Bomber]

I see that I am not the only one that has a problem with the stats of defenders. I have experimented with many mods and these stats are the best for overall gameplay IMO.

(A/D/M/B/R/ROF/ Bonus HP/Cost)

Pikes: 2/3/1/0/0/0/+2/30s
Muskets: 4/5/1/3/0/1/+3/60s
Riflemen: 6/7/1/4/0/1/+4/80s
Infantry: 8/10/1/6/0/1/+6/100s
Guerilla: 7/8/2/5/0/1/+5/90s/ Ignore terrain penalty for mountain and jungle, no support cost


Cerberus:

the age of cavalry ended when the infanrty decided to stick a bayonett on the end of a musket, giving them both the firepower of the musket and the protection of the pike. (mid 17th century) Although cav were still used its effectiveness as a shock troop had ebbed by the start of the eighteenth century.