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  • Help Soren; lets improve the AI.

    The amount of work required to code the AI must be a tremendous job.


    There is a large post called "Beyond Sid" at CivFanatics, it's a thread about a game being played at a stupidly difficult setting; played by Bamspeedy (sp?). He is absolutely flooring the other Civs. At the time of typing this, he has one Civ left to destroy: the Celts.

    I noticed that even at this difficult setting, the AI has really not 'understood' the impact of Bam (Bamspeedy) taking over Civ by Civ; not taking into account of the threat and power that he possesses.

    Quite frankly, the AI just sat there and and let themselves die; and I felt it was just pathetic.


    Now, of course, more brains are better than one, especially experienced ones. I think if we can pull together a whole bunch of ways to help Firaxis improve the AI; for example, ways for the AI to learn the players style of playing, being more unpredictable, being able to wage massive wars successfully; Firaxis might take a look and might consider a future patch for finalising the AI, and hopefully finalising Civilization III.

    So if we can just start posting our thoughts on how to Improve Civ3's AI (Even if some of the features have to be tweaked/changed/added/removed).


    I'm not very good at understanding the AI (Haven't played many games lately). But I do think the AI should be more aware of how dangerous other civs are to them, and what they need to do to counter-act that danger.

    I also think that the AI should have the ability to carry out a massive-scaled war - by preparing a certain amount of required units inside the cities. Then once ready, load the units onto ships and send em over - and continue to send in reinforcements. And before this, I think that the AI should try to gather as much information as needed from the enemy, such as strength of cities, importance of cities, best places to attack first, etc.

    Of course, I can't go into great depth and reason for my suggestions, and I think that is what is really needed to help the programmers tweak the AI.
    be free

  • #2
    The crucial word here is funding, I'm afraid.

    I have no doubt that Firaxis are commited to making Civ 3 a great game, but the real question is: Would it be possible to allocate the funds needed to do this?

    I am afraid that Soren has no call whatsoever regarding this.

    ATARI: Please send more money

    Asmodean
    Im not sure what Baruk Khazad is , but if they speak Judeo-Dwarvish, that would be "blessed are the dwarves" - lord of the mark

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    • #3
      I think Asmodean has it correct. The problem isn't Soren's skill. I'm sure he is plenty skillful enough. It's the fact that he (or anybody at Firaxis for that matter) has so little time to spend on improving the AI.

      Remember, every minute that Soren (or any other programmer at Firaxis) is called on to rework Civ3's AI is a minute that he isn't working on "The Next Big Thing" (which, incidentally, is most likely what is paying his salary).
      Seemingly Benign
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      • #4
        Yeah, Soren's probably improving the AI, but for Pirates not Civ3. He wasn't even directly involved in the AI programming for C3C, he acted more as a consultant and Breakaway seems to have done the grunt work.
        "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
        "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
        "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

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        • #5
          I'm not 100% who worked on the AI in C3C. I get the impression that it was programmer(s) at BreakAway who did the majority of the work.

          Snoopy, you've raised an interesting point. There are several threads in the C3C forums also on the AI dealing with everything from improvements to n ew issues.
          AI:C3C Debug Game Report (Part1) :C3C Debug Game Report (Part2)
          Strategy:The Machiavellian Doctrine
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          • #6
            Soren is an amazing AI programmer. He was the only one to work on it, at least for vanilla and PTW, and created the most competent AI yet in a civ game.
            Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
            Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
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            • #7
              I thought C3C had a really improved AI?

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              • #8
                It does. But the AI's passivity to this particular strategy is nothing new.

                I've noticed though the AI can and will make a more strategic choice about when they go to war in C3C.
                AI:C3C Debug Game Report (Part1) :C3C Debug Game Report (Part2)
                Strategy:The Machiavellian Doctrine
                Visit my WebsiteMonkey Dew

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                • #9
                  It is sort like boiling frogs or lobsters. If you raise the heat slow enough they do not realize the danger until it is too late.

                  With the new aggressive setting, will they go KAI if all are set high?

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                  • #10
                    hi ,

                    check this out >>> http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~soren/

                    he has some brains

                    but one has to take in serious consideration that in order to build a better AI , well the comp specs have to go higher , and on how many double sided dvd disks is it going to be burned , ......

                    have a nice day
                    - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                    - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                    WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sn00py

                      There is a large post called "Beyond Sid" at CivFanatics, it's a thread about a game being played at a stupidly difficult setting; played by Bamspeedy (sp?). He is absolutely flooring the other Civs. At the time of typing this, he has one Civ left to destroy: the Celts.

                      I noticed that even at this difficult setting, the AI has really not 'understood' the impact of Bam (Bamspeedy) taking over Civ by Civ; not taking into account of the threat and power that he possesses.
                      Bamspeedy is a sick individual. But Sn00py, I think your assessment of how we'd like to see an AI respond is dead-on. If 8 of us could sit down and truly play an epic set-up in MP uninterrupted, we'd see more action taken by a number of human controlled civs against a human player who was slowly, or quickly, ammassing power through systematic wars aimed at enlarging his or her industrial capacity. It would be a real thrill to have an AI representative hail me to deliver a warning that any further imperial operations will result in "a war to end all wars." Then, a decision would have to be made, one that may end up where the human player must carry on w/ out any trading partners.
                      "What did you learn in school today, dear little boy of mine?
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                      • #12
                        Hmm... Beware what you are asking for! Do you want gang up on a human player? I do not think it is really good idea.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pvzh
                          Hmm... Beware what you are asking for! Do you want gang up on a human player? I do not think it is really good idea.
                          hi ,

                          nah , that wont happen , after a while they are occupied with themselfs , .....

                          have a nice day
                          - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                          - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                          WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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                          • #14
                            We definately don't want to see the AI ganging up on the human player. Other TBS games have done that, and it is not funny.

                            But a smarter AI, one that anticipates your moves, and looks for patterns in your behaviour would definately be a nice improvement.

                            Asmodean
                            Im not sure what Baruk Khazad is , but if they speak Judeo-Dwarvish, that would be "blessed are the dwarves" - lord of the mark

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                            • #15
                              What is being over looked here is that the people here are deep into the game. This means they know how to beat it. Most buyers of the game are not even winning at Chief. I have had contacts with several players that lose at this level. I have seen winning scores of less than 200, so if they do make it better they will just be cutting off more players.

                              I also doubt that the AI will be able to handle learning a players sytle until well into the future. It will take more horse power, more time and that means money and again limiting the people that can play the game.

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