Should the impi be changed?

[johncmcleod]

I have now tried impis as 30 shield 2.2.2 horseman replacements so they come with HBR but don't require horses and allowing the Zulus to build ordinary spearmen.

It seems to work well and the Zulus still build plenty of impis and use them aggressively. However they now seem to start a little more quietly and only become aggressive once their empire gets to being militarily strong (which the higher attack of the revised impi helps).

I like this change as it makes the Zulus more of a challenge as an AI civ. If you play with cultural linked starts on (I don't any more) then it may also give them a better chance against the Persians who usually wipe them out in my games.

The problem is that the impi were early warriors, the Zulu should start out with them. It shouldn't matter if the impi are too good because the Zulu start out next to some really tough neighbors, they usually do poorly because what they build (the only thing prioritized is offensive land units) and they have the 2 worst traits in the game.

How about making it a replacement for the archer? 2.1.2 30 shields.

[johncmcleod]

They are flagged as both an offensive and a defensive unit for the AI, so they can and do use them on offense.

They're not good offensive units, attack being only 1.

2.1.2 would completely screw Egypt

War Chariots are 2.1.2, requires Horses, and is wheeled

If Impis had the same stats without the penalties (and replaces Archers, so they start with them) they would be too powerful

Well, Egypt wouldn't get screwed, industrious is the best trait in the game and some experts say that religious is the 2nd best trait.

[johncmcleod]

Or, you could just make it so the Zulu don't start out with warrior code. They don't start out with the Impis right now anyway.

[Mad Bomber]

As the Impi was noted for covering broken ground as well, I would mod it to 2.1.1 * All terrain as roads, 20 S and replace the archer. As mentioned by others the Zulu need the boost as their Trait combination is terrible.

[johncmcleod]

Is 20 shields too cheap for a unit that uses all terrain as roads?

If a certain type of terrain is made impassible can they go on that terrain with all terrain as roads turned on?

[Kaos XIII]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
The impi are fine the way they are.

They are flagged as both an offensive and a defensive unit for the AI, so they can and do use them on offense.

Bring horsemen along with your impi, and you have your 2.2.2 stack.

Right ON!!!

There's nothing wrong with the Zulu. What Bamspeedy has written, is exactly how they can be used very effectively.

It's not like the Keshik, which needs much modding.

[Mad Bomber]

Right ON!!!

There's nothing wrong with the Zulu. What Bamspeedy has written, is exactly how they can be used very effectively.

It's not like the Keshik, which needs much modding.

The Zulu was an effective attacker not a defender. With an attack of a 1 the Impi is not an attacker which is not correct.

John:

You may be right about the cost; but 30 S is way overpriced, Keep in mind the Impi as 2.1.1* would NOT be able to retreat, IMO justifing its 20 S cost.

Not sure about the reference to impassible tiles, as the only options I am aware of is to make terrain impassible to wheeled units.

[johncmcleod]

As the Impi was noted for covering broken ground as well, I would mod it to 2.1.1 * All terrain as roads, 20 S and replace the archer. As mentioned by others the Zulu need the boost as their Trait combination is terrible.

Does this make the game balanced? I think I would just make it 2.1.2 because I don't think the all terrain as roads is realistic for any unit, and in real life most units can retreat from battle, so I'd give it 2.1.2 20 shields. I'd also make it a replacement for the archer, because it wouldn't seem right to have a replacement for a mounted unit not ride on anything.

[Bamspeedy]

By making the impi 2.1.2 for 20 shields, you've just made horses and horsemen totally useless for the Zulu. The AI would still bee-line for horseback Riding, even though it would be useless for them. I'm betting the AI would still build a 30 shield 2.1.2 horseman instead of a 20 shield 2.1.2 impi.

In the great 'swordsman vs. horseman' debate where people debate if you should use horseman or swordsmen for early warfare, most players say they don't use the horsemen because the speed doesn't help since they need to bring along the slow spearman. With the Zulu, you CAN bring defenders along with the horseman and not be slowed down at all.

Who cares if in 'real life' the impi were more attackers than defenders. There are many things in this game that isn't perfectly 'historically accurate'. The impi as it is, can be a powerful tool if people knew how to use them.

Not only can they tag along with the horsemen (for basically a 2.2.2 stack), they are excellent pillagers. Do you know how hard it can be for an AI to dislodge your impi on the mountain that you just used to pillage their only iron (or prevent them from hooking it up in the first place)? In many cases, the impi getting to an iron twice as fast as a spearman can, makes all the difference.

[Dominae]

The Impi only "suck" in the hands of the AI. As pointed out, there are very good uses for the Impi, uses which only human players can exploit.

This is true of other things as well. The AI does not use bombardment units very well. Are we to make those better so that when the AI uses them they actually do something significant? If so, how do you prevent the human player from exploiting the newly-improved Catapults, Cannons, etc.?

I agree: it sucks that the Zulu UU is not better-used by the AI. I'm a fan of the Impi! You just have to accept that the AI does not use the unit very well, and go and play MP where some human player will whoop your butt with them. Making all the units stronger just to help the AI is not the right solution.


Dominae

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Dominae
The Impi only "suck" in the hands of the AI. As pointed out, there are very good uses for the Impi, uses which only human players can exploit.

This is true of other things as well. The AI does not use bombardment units very well. Are we to make those better so that when the AI uses them they actually do something significant? If so, how do you prevent the human player from exploiting the newly-improved Catapults, Cannons, etc.?

I agree: it sucks that the Zulu UU is not better-used by the AI. I'm a fan of the Impi! You just have to accept that the AI does not use the unit very well, and go and play MP where some human player will whoop your butt with them. Making all the units stronger just to help the AI is not the right solution.

Dominae

Dominae is right. I used to do extensive tweaking of units, but the AI was never able to use those tweaks as well as I did. Basically it just put more of a gap between us.

The better solution is a better AI...hmm Skynet anyone.

[Mad Bomber]

Bambspeedy and Domnae:

I agree that the Impi has uses as they are, and if you like them that way then great, you simply do not have to mod them. However I do like to keep some things realistic in the game such as the role in which a unit was used. Granted the all terrain as roads is not the greatest idea; but a 2.1.2 is a good mod which puts the impi back into its proper role. In other civs UUs make other units almost useless ( would you ever see a 2.1.2 30s Celtic horseman?) so this is not a problem for me.

[CerberusIV]

I changed the Impi simply because a militaristic civ without a strong attacking unit seems odd to me and unreasonable.

I also think the game benefits from a 2.2.2 30s horseman unit (wasn't the Chinese Rider originally intended to be that? Maybe that is why the Impi came out as it did).

The best thing about Civ3/PTW is that you can make these changes if you wish and it can be fun just to try these things. What I would say about the change I have made to the Impi is that it makes it easier for the AI to use the unit better.

[Bamspeedy]

would you ever see a 2.1.2 30s Celtic horseman?

If they had horses, but no iron, then of course you would see Celtic horsemen.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill

Dominae is right. I used to do extensive tweaking of units, but the AI was never able to use those tweaks as well as I did. Basically it just put more of a gap between us.

The better solution is a better AI...hmm Skynet anyone.

Exactly, but well designed mods may be much more playable on MP/PBEM. Hopefully the new XP will allow us to go crazy (as opposed to adding a few units, advances etc) and produce a human-only game.