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Should we destroy Lux part deaux

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  • #1

    Should we destroy Lux part deaux

    There are 2 major diplomatic issues at hand.

    First we have to gauge how our relations with Lux are hurting our relations with other nations.

    Then we need to gauge how destroying Lux would affect our relations with other nations. Either positive or negative.


    see correspondance below:

    And from Togas of Roleplay:

    From Roleplay: Regarding Lux Invicta
    Betahound,

    This is a delicate matter that I felt would be better addressed with a letter from one leader to another. I don't want to funnel the message through a few ambassadors, as it might not be communicated very well.

    My nation and yours have no formal relations and other than a few talks I had with Jon Miller ... back when he was your leader, we really haven't talked. We have not completed any deals with you, nor have we received any offers. Furthermore, it seems that when we do make offers, they are ignored.

    On Sunday I received a message from Trip of Lux Invicta telling me that he was sorry, but that he could not go through with the deal we had made regarding Writing, because he "has to" trade with your nation instead. When I pressed him in chat he was evasive, couldn't explain it much further, but kept insisting that in his curent situation he had "no choice" but to trade with Vox instead of Spain.

    Now, I wouldn't want to seem too paranoid, but it does seem to us that Vox Controli is acting in a very hostile mannor to Spain. We'd like to understand why it is that Vox is so disinterested in maintaining a friendship with Spain and why you would threaten Lux in such a mannor that they would cancel a deal they had with us.

    I think that our two nations should sit down and discuss this very soon, at least before the cold shoulder turns into a cold war. We have relations with your rivals, Gathering Storm, and we trade with them. We would like to also trade with you.

    Please contact me soon so that we can personally discuss this.

    and this:

    Please deal with the Glory of War directly, as negotiating through your Luxian puppets is a waste of both our time
    5
    Yes
    100.00%
    5
    No
    0.00%
    0
    Tags: None
  • #2
    As Nero said- .

    I don't think we can afford the negative consequences of having Lux around for the next 20-40 turns. I am also not convinced we are going to get much in return for our investment. I am worried, from a micro-management perspective, of the future vulnerability of Dissidentville (already renamed ) to cultural conversion after being in Lux's hands for a long time, and it being so far from our capitol. And the cost on the international front, if this early reaction is any indication, is going to be way too high.

    I can do further damage control with GoW. In fact - what we could do is honor Lux's deal with them - which as far as I can figure out - was 40 gold. This would keep GoW happy, and would cover our tracks on the GS-Lux trading arrangements. And it would get us MM in 4 turns. I would also ask GS to pay 20 gold towards that purchase as part of this arrangement, but that is not a deal breaker.

    I can also do further damage control with RP - who could be long-term friends and allies when we do get to the continent.

    And - according to Trip - they have produced a worker for us.

    And I don't have the time or energy for this sustained level of FA activity.

    So - my vote is to toast them.

    (why couldn't Trip just sit quietly for awhile. I don't think it is in him, to be honest.)

    And guys - sorry I got us into this mess. I should've taken the 175 gold and said sayonara.
    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war .... aw, forget that nonsense. Beer, please.

    Comment

    • #3
      One other thought - and maybe a wild one - but how about we present the matter to the rest of the world. The first motion put before the United Nations. We clearly explain our position, what our intent was, how it has clearly come across in a different way, and what do the rest of the nations of the world think. Poll held by Switzerland - one vote per nation.

      This may help clear our name in the international community. It will display our gentler and more noble intent in all of this. It will also give the other civs who feel they have a stake in this a chance to decide Lux's fate. It will also mean the final response is on the shoulders of the broader community.

      It could also be trend-setting for the resolution of other 'world' matters.

      It might also be seen as an indication that we can't make the tough call. But I think more would see it as a magnanimous gesture.
      Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war .... aw, forget that nonsense. Beer, please.

      Comment

      • #4
        True, but advertising our possible action to the international comunity would also give Lux a heads-up.
        ____________________________
        "One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
        "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
        ____________________________

        Comment

        • #5
          But I still voted to put them out of their misery.
          ____________________________
          "One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
          "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
          ____________________________

          Comment

          • #6
            the problem as I see it is I can't see how lux is going to get off our continent. I had my doubts about this before we did the deal.

            Unless Lego gives them a city I can't see how they can do it. They could risk getting a galley around the continent. but that's a big risk. And even then we don't know how much space is between the other continent and the big one.

            I don't want to wait until magnetism.

            Comment

            • #7
              we could privately discuss this with other nations.

              But yeah putting a poll up would not make Lux very happey

              Comment

              • #8
                If we do this - we will need to make a crisp and clear statement - and then avoid getting in any mud slinging with Trip. We should not respond in any threads. He will be ranting and raving about this. He may even post the Accord we struck. I think most people will know better and see through all this. But if we get in a hesaid/she said debate, it will get messy. We are a fairly quiet team publicly - I suggest we get real quiet for awhile.

                Here is what i propose we post as a new thread in the public forum. Should we say more. I suspect we don't need to. Please comment. Thanks.

                --------------------------------------------------------------

                In a rare public appearance, The One of Vox Controli made the following announcement. I thought it was important that we shared this with the international community.

                ... BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, Vox Controli

                The One - speaking from the central balcony of the Palace of the Voice, in Vox Controli:

                "It is with a heavy heart that I speak to you today. It was not long ago that we undertook our noble initiative in social engineering - the saving of Lux Invicta from extinction. Undertaken as the Portia Accord, our intent was indeed both noble and kind-hearted. At considerable risk and expense to ourselves, we 'gifted' a city, renamed Portia, to Lux Invicta, thus allowing them to emigrate their refugees from the continental conflict. That was a conflict which we knew little of, and which we were not part of. We did not, and have not, taken "sides." We, the Voxians, simply did not want to see a civilization exit the world scene this early in our collective history.

                It is. therefore, most unfortunate that this initiative did not succeed. I could discuss the numerous in's and out's of this complex issue and the resulting problems, but I believe it is sufficient if I say that the situation clearly became untenable for Vox Controli.

                I regret to announce tht Vox Controli has taken back the city known as Portia. Lux Invicta is no more.
                Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war .... aw, forget that nonsense. Beer, please.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Well, it will definately raise some eyebrows!

                  looks good to me - what say everyone else?
                  ____________________________
                  "One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
                  "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
                  ____________________________

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Let's go for it.
                    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Beta wrote:
                      We are a fairly quiet team publicly - I suggest we get real quiet for awhile.
                      That may be part of our problem. By being quiet no one really knows us or our side in this.

                      The other night I spent some time reading the PTWDG threads. I was a bit disturbed by some of the posts Trip was making after his emigration to our continent. He was almost boasting about his escape and he literally dared them to come and find him.

                      I want to spend some time tonight looking over some old posts before I make a decision.

                      One thing we need to do, no matter what happens with Lux, is to get an ambassador communicating with RP.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Harry - I know what you mean about Trip and his posts. I wish he could have just laid low for awhile. It would have helped everyone's cause.

                        I agree that we need to forge stronger links with RP. They will be key when we get over there - and by all accounts, they are the furthest from the strait, and therefore will feel the least threatened by our presence, and may be our best bet at allies.

                        RP has the save now. They have had it for a number of hours, so we should get it soon. If you have major objections, please voice them soon. I will sit on the save for awhile, but not too long.

                        Also - is everybody on side with our public message? Do we need to say more? Less? Is the tone OK?
                        Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war .... aw, forget that nonsense. Beer, please.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          So - I gather the 4 votes are Eli, Diss, Witt, and me. That leaves Harry and Jon. We should all make our views known about this. As this is a major step, we should all be comfortable with it.
                          Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war .... aw, forget that nonsense. Beer, please.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            I don't know how quickly I can make my views known. I am still at work and sneaking time here and there to take a peak. I won't have a chance until later tonight to really go through things but that may be too late if the save arrives soon.

                            One possibility... We control everything. Lux has little bargaining power to make deals without us. Maybe we should take control of the situation and make a deal to get Map Making and give it to Lux.

                            I still want to find out from Lego how far they are from sending galleys forth to remove the darkness that separates them from the rest of the world. We also need to find out if they are willing to give Lux a city to speed them along their way. If Lego is not willing then I am not sure I can put up with Lux/Trip long enough unless we put shackels on them.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Well, now the Poll is 5 - 0. So I guess Jon made his choice...or was it you Harry?
                              ____________________________
                              "One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
                              "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
                              ____________________________

                              Comment

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