Foreign Affairs Communications (Vol 3)

[Beta]

Received tonight from Nathan Barclay of GS. I don't think the 10 turn delay is too bad. We would not be ready to go with a settler and galley right away as it is. 10, or 12 turns, whatever it ends up being - is about right. Maybe I should say 8 turns - that would be better.

Hi nathan.

I understand about the delay. I too had some serious RL stuff this week that pre-occupied me. Take care.

Two points.

First - when is the map making trade going to occur? If it is shortly- as in the next turn or two - then 10 turns would be OK. We will need to cover our tracks about what we have to trade.

Secondly - Lux is being a pain. I esplained the basics of the deal we had lined up for Lux to Lux - I thought they would be appreciative. Instead, they have come up with another deal for map making - presumably GoW, and want some of their gold back to purchase it.

Jon and I are in agreement that we tell them the deal on the table is non-negotiable. If need be - our spearman will take back the city and we can put our Mother Theresa aspirations behind us.

Will keep you posted - and will confirm quicjkly the above 120 turn wait on map making.

Cheers ... Beta.

nbarclay wrote on 01-03-2003 19:45:

The deal with RolePlay is a straight Code of Laws for Literature transaction. For the moment, the plan is for you to sit on Philosophy, but that's still a matter that requires further thought and discussion. Regarding Republic, it may make a huge amount of sense to sell/trade it as a time when someone else is likely to get the tech approaches, but we do still want to try to set up a window where the two of us are the only ones who have it.

We just had a situation develop with GoW. GhengisFarb had previously indicated that they were going to accept our proposed deal for Map Making, but now they're trying to add strings. (Sound familiar?) One of the things they want is a ten-turn "no tech whoring" provision. Would you be willing to accept a ten-turn delay between the time we get Map Making and the time we pass it on to you in the interest of trying to mask our relationship? (If they trade it to us and then you have it immediately after, they will certainly view it as a violation of the agreement whatever technical excuses we might make to try to rationalize our actions.)

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, but I'd been up all night and was a bit too tired for complex diplomatic matters when I got your message this morning. And unfortunately, the trade situation is diverting too much attention from the Lux situation for us to have gotten a lot farther considering that. Speaking of the Lux situation, GoW now has suspicions that they've relocated to our continent, but indicate that they aren't interested in chasing after them.

Nathan

[Beta]

My response to Trip. I am also sending to BFM. Maybe he can knock some sense into Trip's head. If not - well - one move by the spearman and it is all over. Wish we hadn't given the 75 gold to GS. My letter is strongly worder as to leave little room for mis-intepretation.

Trip and BFM - here is the deal on the table. We have already had to pay a large sum to GS as part of this deal, and to keep them from destroying you. This deal is being done to ensure your survival. I would advise you not 'look a gift horse in the mouth'. Patience is wearing thin on our side. Construction would have been due to come to us anyway as part of the previous deal, and from what you have said, it won't be available for quite a while as it is. Keep in mind who your friends are here. The deal:

Lux and Vox agree to the following:

1. Vox gives writing to Lux in 2 turns.

2. Lux starts paying Vox 2 gold per turn for 20 turns upon receipt of writing.

3. Vox gives map making to Lux when it is available. This will be approximately 12 turns.

4. Lux gives its world map to both Vox and GS the turn after it gets map making.

5. Lux gives construction to Vox when it is done.

6. This deal is non-negotiable by Lux.

This agreement does not negate or replace Lux's obligations under the previous accord agreed-to by Lux and Vox - the Portia Accord.

This agreement does not negate or replace any agreements or stipulations in place between Lux and GS or Vox regarding unit movement and placement.

.... BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, Vox Controli

So - if my count is correct - for saving you from destruction, lending you a city and hurting our own economy for 40-50 turns, risking that city to future cultural conversion because of foreing occupation, upsetting the status quo on our own continent, and giving you writing and map making now when you most need them, we get 190 gold (a sizeable portion of which we have had to give to GS), and six future techs, 3 of which are doubtful because of the free tech for scientific civ issue. Your pledge of future friendship is also now in serious doubt as our very first experience with Lux on the new continent is to have them bite the hand that feeds them and start negotiating with others for 'better' deals. I don't recall anyone from the continent stepping forward to save your bacon a few turns ago. But now you want to start dealing with them when we have guaranteed you the technology you need - at a more than reasonable price. Please think hard about this. The hawks in the Voxian senate are restless.

...BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli

Trip wrote on 01-03-2003 16:39:
Yes, I know, I was still waiting to talk with you.

Since you seem to be too slippery to track down, I'll have to talk with you in here.

In response to your previous offer for Writing and Map Making. While I'm sure Vox likes the idea, Lux does not approve. Instead of using our gold to trade for Writing and Map Making, we have to give you construction and our entire economy for them instead? Lux could not accept such a deal and continue to function.

Lux has found a deal which works out better for us getting Map Making. It will only cost us 40 gold, so that's all you'll have to return to us for that. It does not involve GS, do don't worry. A better idea for Vox may be to give Lux Invicta Writing, since they will end up keeping the large sum of money we stocked with Vox anyways. It will either be that, or one of our neighbors will profit from our acquisition of Writing anyways. Lux feels this is the best and cheapest way for both teams to get this deal done. Remember, the money you're holding for us is still ours to use as we please until we get Map Making. Lux feels this is the best way to keep you with most of that, without hurting Lux to the extent that Vox's previous offer did.

Let me know what you think. I'd like to send the save sometime.

[Beta]

Received from Nathan Barclay of GS.

RE: Re: Re: ok - last message
I just had a chat with Trip trying to clear up a couple points, and I think it will be possible to do business without getting nasty. His main goal for the moment is to keep from getting left totally behind in the tech race, and it occurs to me that it may actually be in our best interest to accommodate him - especially with Lux being a scientific civ and the 1.21 patch out now. A good diplomat tries to avoid using an iron fist when a velvet glove will suffice (or perhaps a velvet glove with an iron fist inside it).

According to Trip, Construction was not part of your original deal with Lux, and the text I have of the Portia Accord seems to bear that out. It's only natural that Trip be upset at having you make new demands (both Construction and additional gold) and offer nothing in return, and the fact that he had an elaborate trading scheme in mind to try to keep in the tech race makes matters worse for him.

But we/you could provide Lux with techs of comparable value in return for Construction without its really costing us anything (assuming we end up deciding it's in our best interest to get Construction from Lux rather than elsewhere), and maybe also arrange things so the 2 gpt you want comes as part of a tech sale rather than as pure extortion. Indeed, making it part of a tech sale might get us more gold than that. And we need Lux to keep within shouting distance in the tech race in the ancient era if we want them to get their free medieval tech in time for it to be of any use to us if it's different from yours. (That's where the new patch plays an important role.)

If you'll let me work on it, I'll see if I can come up with an arrangement that Trip will accept for more reason than just that a spear is being held to his head, and that won't cost us anything of importance in the process. Then I get to try to sell it both to you and to Gathering Storm.

Regarding Map Making, I'm suggesting that we put the "no tech whoring" deal in terms of 10 turns after we get Map Making or 15 turns after they get Code of Laws, whichever is earlier. That's a little over the 12 turns you had in mind, but not much. I hope that will be okay with you if it's what we end up with.

Nathan

[Jon Miller]

sounds ok, I guess

Jon Miller

[Beta]

Received from Panzer 32 today - with my response.


Hi Panzer32. This is currently under discussion on the floor of the Voxian senate. Will get back to you shortly.

.... Beta.

Panzer32 wrote on 03-03-2003 09:06:
Betahound,

Did you get my previous PM about trading mapmaking? The GoW will get map making in a few turns, and would like to know what Vox would trade us for it.

Thank You,

Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

[Beta]

I originally sent this letter to Nathan of GS today, but then I saw the most recent polling results on whether to finish Lux off or not. So I cancelled it. Needs further discussion.

Hi Nathan. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Jon and I had to discuss the situation.

As you can tell, despite the Voxian love of the outdoors and travel, we are not happy campers. My recent letter to Trip probably best explains why. Our biggest concern is what we will get out of this deal in the future. Our previous dealings with Lux were, ah, somewhat difficult. And this recent experience has not been much better - despite the huge olive leaf - indeed the whole tree - which we have extended.

As I said in my letter, if we, Vox provide the 40 gold for them to do this deal, then we have received the equivalent of 35 gold in payment for the loan of a city for some 40 turns or so, at a point in the game when each city is very important. We don't even get construction. The 6 future techs may be only 3, depending on the patch. And even then - Lux's recent behaviour indicates that they may renege on providing future techs at all, if at that time it is not a 'good' deal for them.

That being said - if this is to work, we acknowledge that Lux cannot be technologically and economically crippled to the point where they would not be a usefull ally. Indeed, our original intent with Lux was that would not be the case. It was part of the original discussions. Our beef with this deal is that they are using 'our' money to get a tech that would have been available for essentially nothing anyways. And the 2 gpt is negotiable.

And as they have explained his 'elaborate trading scheme' to you, it would only make sense that they explain it to us. And if we - GS and Vox - agree that this makes sense - and they should get 40 gold, then we should discuss which treasury this comes from. What seems to be missing in all these discussions is the expense and risk, in real game terms, that Vox is incurring to save Lux from extinction.

So, yes please Nathan, if you can come up with something that works for all, recognizing what all three nations have put into this so far, please do. It would be appreciated by us the Voxians, who as you can tell, are somewhat frustrated by this matter right now.

Regarding map making and GoW, you do appreciate why it is in both our best interests for Vox to get galleys as soon as possible. Expansion in another direction will take pressure off our continent, as we discussed when reaching the border agreement. So - we would like to stick to a time period of roughly 10-12 turns from now. From what I gather that would put it 5-7 turns after you get map making. We could stretch by a turn or two, but we do not want to wait too long.

By the way, GoW approached us again today about trading for map making. Any suggestions as to a response?

Thanks for helping out on this. I could ask why you are helping out, but my guess is that you see this the same way we do, in that if we can make a game-long ally out of Lux, then the technology and future support would flow to both of us.

Beta.

[Beta]

Received from BFM of Lux. I had sent him the same note as Trip, and asking him to help Trip 'see the right path.'

RE: Friends

Hi Beta,

Just a short note: I'm not 100% up-to-date about all information regarding our deals. Trip told me he's going to reply to you, or maybe he has already.

One thing though: we can get MapMaking rather cheap. Maybe you would reconsider this option? I'm not sure whether you are researching it yourselves (in which case we should get it from you), or that you're buying it (in which case we can get a better deal). Anyway - let's be open on this issue, and try to work out what is best for both our civs!

BFM

[HarryH]

We do have an agreement with Lux and I would like to at least try to live up to it for a while. I can see Lux's point. They are in a hole and trying to figure out how to get out of it. In one of my messages about the deal I did mention that Lux will be behind in techs and will need our help for a while to be viable. Another thing to keep in mind are the victory conditions. If it comes to a UN vote I would like to have Lux on our side. If we make it hard on them now they may not do much more to help us out than the minimum in our Portia Accord or break the agreement altogether.

One possiblity (if GS has not already made a deal) is that we give Lux Writing, they aquire Map Making from their 'cheap source', and we get Map Making from Lux in return for Writing. We give Map Making to GS per our agreement and GS pays half of the money we gave to Lux to get Map Making. GS hangs on to CoL for other techs deals.

Suggestion for GoW: Tell them we are busy with other matters at the moment and Map Making is not high enough on our agenda yet.

[HarryH]

I don't think we will be able to wait for Lux to research Construction. After Philosophy, CoL, and Map Making there are only two other required techs besides Construction. I think we will have researched those techs and need to start Construction before Lux finishes it.

[Beta]

Originally posted by HarryH
We do have an agreement with Lux and I would like to at least try to live up to it for a while. I can see Lux's point. They are in a hole and trying to figure out how to get out of it. In one of my messages about the deal I did mention that Lux will be behind in techs and will need our help for a while to be viable. Another thing to keep in mind are the victory conditions. If it comes to a UN vote I would like to have Lux on our side. If we make it hard on them now they may not do much more to help us out than the minimum in our Portia Accord or break the agreement altogether.

One possiblity (if GS has not already made a deal) is that we give Lux Writing, they aquire Map Making from their 'cheap source', and we get Map Making from Lux in return for Writing. We give Map Making to GS per our agreement and GS pays half of the money we gave to Lux to get Map Making. GS hangs on to CoL for other techs deals.

Suggestion for GoW: Tell them we are busy with other matters at the moment and Map Making is not high enough on our agenda yet.

Some good ideas. Think I need to talk to both Trip and Nathan.

[Beta]

Sent to nathan of Gs this morning:

Hi Nathan. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Jon and I and the team had to discuss the Lux situation at some length.

As you can tell, despite the Voxian love of the outdoors and travel, we were not happy campers. My recent letter to Trip probably best explained why. However, we have since had some heart-to-heart conversations with trip, and we seem to have all gotten back on the same page, and the mood here has improved considerably.

We acknowledge that Lux cannot be technologically and economically crippled to the point where they would not be a usefull ally. Indeed, our original intent with Lux was that this would not be the case. It was part of the earlier discussions when we originally extended the olive leaf and the lifeline to Lux.

Trip has explained his trading plans to us. We are on-side. However, we do need to discuss the matter of the 40 gold. What seems to be missing in many of these discussions is the expense and risk, in real game terms, that Vox is incurring to save Lux from extinction. That being said, we are willing to, and have already forwarded to Lux, 20 gold from our half of their monetary reserves. We are asking that on your turn you forward 20 gold to Lux from your half of the reserves.

I hope that you can see the logic and the benefit to GS of doing this. You will have netted 55 gold, plus the benefit of the future techs we receive from Lux under the Portia Accord, given the current tech trading arrangement between ourselves. This is the same benefit we receive, with Vox also incurring the opportunity costs associated with Portia.

As part of this arrangement, we will likely get map making earlier than under the GS-GoW arrangement. We will be getting it via Lux, if they can swing it. I hope you understand why it is in both our best interests for Vox to get galleys as soon as possible. Expansion in another direction will take pressure off our continent, as we discussed when reaching the border agreement. This also eliminates any pressure on both of us regarding the 10 turn restriction.

By the way, GoW approached us again today about trading for map making. Any suggestions as to a response? I suspect we tell them that we are a long way to having anything to trade. Which, if we sit on Philosophy as planned, will appear to be the case. Regarding philosophy, four turns to go, three after this last turn. And, we may still be able to shave one turn off that.

In conclusion, please feel free to chat with Trip about any or all of this. And thanks for helping out to the extent that you have. My guess is that you see this the same way we do, in that if we can make a game-long ally out of Lux, then the technology and future support would flow to both of us.

Regards .... Beta.

[Beta]

And to Trip:

Hi Trip. I almost have the team convinced on this. I have also written Nathan of GS to let him know what's up, with rationale as to why GS should provide the 20 gold. He may be in touch with you.

Regarding the home front - two team members are adamant about the world map matter raised earlier. They are suggesting this be a condition for also providing writing. To make this go down easier, it would be helpful if you agreed to provide your world map when map making is obtained. This would be useful to us.

I suspect GS may be asking the same thing of you, and that their 20 gold may be contingent upon that.

And btw, the team agreed to complete the jungle clearing project around Portia. That was a difficult discussion, but in the end, we could see how it ties into the overall plan and deal.

How goes it with GoW? You are taking awhile to play the turn so I figure things are being discussed. Best of luck. .... Beta.

[Beta]

Received from Trip. Any thoughts? We need to move quickly on this. This implies another 40 gold, 20 from us. Or we wait for map making from GS. I would like to get it sooner.

Re: Map
I'll get back with you on the world map. That should go through, but our team need to discuss it.

I got this message from Ghengis earlier today:

quote:
Surely Vox can cough up another 40 gold or Philosophy to sweeten the deal since your two civs are both getting this?

I know we can't give over another tech or 40 gold, so you will probably have to talk with GoW and/or GS about this. Another 20 gold for Vox and GS, while it would sting, should not cripple you both. It would make discussions easier if I knew how you were getting Map Making to begin with. I'm assuming that you'll be getting it from GoW SOMEHOW, since they're the only ones who've researched it. However, if no decision is reached by the time we have to send our turn, everything will be cut off, so a decision must be made one way or another.
__________________

[Dis]

recieved from ghegnisfarb

My team has been offering to trade your team Mapmaking for the tech you are currently researching for the last 5 days. Are you researching Mapmaking or simply not interested in it?

[HarryH]

If the choice is another 40 gold or Philosophy I say give them the 40 gold and hang on to Philo for a while longer.