GS's Peace Treaty Revisions

[Jon Miller]

I am going for a bit

I understand that there will still be a Vox nation and I understand that there will still be a Vox nation when I truen

Jon Miller

[Beta]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
.... when I truen

So - is that like a Scottish dance?

"Ach lass.. yew shood see me truen."

[Beta]

Nathan - Vox's response:

Greetings People of Vox Controli,

Greetings.

1. Vox will have up to 18 turns, or until workers and settlers equaling its current population (with settlers counting as two pop points), whichever comes first, to evacuate. During that time, only workers and settlers will be produced unless Gathering Storm grants an exception for some special purpose. (This addresses both your fear of not having time to get enough out and our belief that it should be possible.),

Agreed.

3. When leaving, Vox promises not to raze any of it's worked tiles or remaining cities. (This includes abandoning cities by building settlers without GS's consent.) Vox also agrees not to sell any city improvements other than barracks and cultural improvements. (We don't want to spend huge amounts of gold or shields replacing improvements you can get just a handful of pocket change for selling.),

Agreed

4. Vox will not allow any landings of forces other than GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any such forces already there will be asked to leave. (The original version referred to "hostile" forces, leaving an at least theoretically interesting loophole regarding forces claiming not to be hostile.),

Agreed. (and there are no foreign forces on our soil now.)

8. Up to 2 GS War Chariots may patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation. GS and Vox will attempt to minimize interference between GS's patrols and Vox's unit movements. Aside from warriors needed as MPs to address happiness problems, Vox will keep its units outside its cities to avoid ambiguities in verifying numbers and types of troops. (Verification would be worthless in a city showing a veteran pike, and not worth much more in a city showing a veteran spear or veteran or elite immortal. Also, concern about freedom of movement runs in both directions.),

Agreed.

And some additional provisions:

11. Vox will not use pop rushing in any city without GS's approval. (Assuming you want to evacuate as much population as possible, pop rushing will not be in your best interest anyhow, and we prefer not to inherit unhappiness from additional pop rushing.),

Agreed.

12. Vox will give Gathering Storm Engineering when research on that is completed. (Were it not for your attack on us and all the gold we had to spend rushing troops to defend ourselves in the early stages, we would almost certainly have researched it ourselves long ago. We would therefore consider it grossly unfair for you to try to charge us for it, nor would your simply refusing to provide it to us at all remedy the problem. Receiving Engineering from you would also help make up for the huge loss we took on Feudalism, a loss which we believe to have been caused in part by other civs' reluctance to make deals that would provide us with gold to fight you with. We therefore regard getting Engineering from you as a matter of simple justice.),

Agreed.

13. If applicable, Vox will sell or trade its free industrial and modern techs to Gathering Storm on terms at least as favorable as those on which it provides them to any other nation. This includes giving Gathering Storm an equal opportunity to pay with techs or other commodities rather than gold. Commitments required in return for land in your new home will not count in this regard, however. (This protects against your making excessive demands for thoe techs as a way to exact revenge, just in case you might consider such a thing, while providing you with reasonable compensation. It is my hope, however, that our teams will be on good enough terms to make this provision mostly superfluous.),

Agreed.

14. Vox will at no time now or in the future initiate, participate in, or encourage any embargo against GS in any matters of trade whatsoever. This includes, but is not limited to, Technology, Luxuries, Resources, Maps, or any other material or immaterial elements of the PTWDG. It applies both to formal embargos and informal arrangements or understandings that would tend to have a similar effect. (Again, I hope we're just being paranoid.),

Do not agree.

As Eli stated - "Would you have agreed to a term that obliges you to not wage war against, for example, RP "at no time now or in the future"?
We dont plan any embargoes and you don't plan wars with RP, but it may happen and it's not an option we want to block."

My comment would be " This is going to be a long game. We very much plan on laying low for quite sometime, but this is something that could be pulled out in 2000 years or so and referenced as a form of Voxian treachery. By then we will have had to earn each others trust and friendship over the intervening years - and that will be worth more than a 2000 year old treaty. If you see my point. I also see the recent 'thawing' of relations going a long way to making this clause less relevant."

If this is a make-it-or-break-it clause - we will agree, but the commentary above still applies. Trust will be more important than a treaty.

15. If any former Voxian city transferred to GS attempts to flip back to Vox, Vox will reject the city when asked. Should a mistake be made in handling that, or if some quirk of MP prevents you from having an opportunity to reject the flip, Vox will immediately gift the city back to GS. (The purpose of this one is obvious. ),

Agreed.

16. The city of Dissidentville will be an exception to the 18-turn evacuation period. Vox will either hand over or abandon Dissidentville (in the latter case, probably by disbanding with a settler sped up by disbanding units), at GS's choice, within the next seven turns. Should this provision undercut Vox's ability to evacuate population equivalent to its current population within 18 turns, GS will grant a suitable extension to compensate. (Dissidentville adds very little to your production capacity, and it's close enough to our core that we'd rather get a city there going sooner.),

Agreed. Please see my earlier PM regarding the movement of units from Dissdientville to The Voice.

17. It is understood by both sides that the spirit of this agreement that is important, not just its letter. Neither side will attempt to use technicalities to take unfair advantage of the other or to circumvent the intent of the agreement. (Self-evident, I hope.),

Agreed.

As I am editing Eli's post here - I presume the other clauses were already agreed to or were non-contentious to start with.

Let me know if this is acceptable. Or do we need to work on the wording for clause 14. We can chat if necessary.

And my post of earlier today explained our moves. We would like to move more units to Dissidentville for the proposed move - but we do not want it mistaken for an offensive action.

.... Beta of Vox.

[HarryH]

Originally posted by Eli
For the purposes of pop-rushing a Spearman, to defend the city from the huge bunch of Barbarians on Lego Minor.

If we time the palace jump and teleport properly we can get a lot more military units there just as fast as we could pop rush a spearman. It will also speed up the creation of cities in Legos Minor.

[Beta]

PEACE!!!!

Received from Nathan:

Peace
(Copies to Beta, Eli, and Jon)

Greetings People of Vox Controli,

Gathering Storm has decided that removing the no-embargo provision from the treaty in the interest of goodwill between our nations is acceptable to us, and has officially ratified the peace treaty as thus amended (with the subsequent provisions renumbered accordingly). Good luck in your evacuation and in your new homes. Please let us know if you would like our help in planning the evacuation.

Sincerely,

The People of Gatheing Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

Eli - can you paste together what the complete agreement looks like and post it in the GS FA thread. Thanks.

[Wittlich]

[Beta]

Witt - I concur!!!

[Beta]

My response of this morning - just to make sure they know we are on-side. And to discuss details.

Hello Nathan.

Greetings to the People of Gathering Storm.

With the deal being acceptable to both, we are at peace. Again, as stated in public, Vox appreciates the position taken by GS as both noble and generous.

Now for a few details - pulllllease take the catapults. As the population decreases, our revenue falls and we could do with less units. We have started liquidating some units in the north. A numbeof workers and settlers are already produced. Things are winding down nicely.

We had to move two warriors into D'ville for disorder control. I will be cashing one in next turn to speed up the worker production there. And I may need to move a spear in. All other southern units will remain north of the city. We expect to be finished in D'ville in 5 turns - at which point - we will move all our units into the city and gift it to you. The units will be moved out of the capitol the next turn.

After taking the catapults - we will settle on peace again. And then we wil grant a ROP agreement so your WC's can traverse North Estonia more easily.

I'm sure there will be more details to work on - so this may be a Vox Daily Peace Report.

Any questions - let us know.

nbarclay wrote on 23-06-2003 15:24:
(Copies to Beta, Eli, and Jon)

Greetings People of Vox Controli,

Gathering Storm has decided that removing the no-embargo provision from the treaty in the interest of goodwill between our nations is acceptable to us, and has officially ratified the peace treaty as thus amended (with the subsequent provisions renumbered accordingly). Good luck in your evacuation and in your new homes. Please let us know if you would like our help in planning the evacuation.

Sincerely,

The People of Gatheing Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist