Inquisition

[ThePlagueRat]

OOC:

The inquisition was historically not intended for converting or prosecuting pagans. i.e. occultists were not part of the Christian faith and therefore not the responibility of the inquisition.
It's dedicated task was to prosecute and punish those Christians who did not submit to the chuch's authority. Those were called heretics, and they had different rituals, interpretations of the Bible, and preached in other languages than Latin, etc. After some time, though... the inquisition got involved into certain other tasks, such as assisting local authorities in witch-hunting and stuff. It got kinda out of hand I guess.

[Aidun]

Originally posted by History Guy
Anyway, we must have a bit of an Inquisition, to flush out the non-Believers. Spain is a Catholic country. We can't have Polytheists roaming in our sacred borders! We must convert them...and nothing clears the head so well to conversion than a death sentence, eh, what?

Perhaps you philosophers can dissent here, but remember, Spain is the Church, and the Church is the Bride of Christ. We cannot fill Spain with reckless pagans and heretics. Perhaps bonfires may not be needed, but they must be converted. By hook, or by papal crook...

Simply crusifying any pagan or heretic is not the just way. These are very bad sins indeed, but we should still have patience with the people who commit these sins. Our first task is to try to convince them and teach them that waht they do is wrong.
If they stick to these thoughts, we can first deny these people the holy sacraments to show them we are serious. We can eventually excommunicate them if they keep sinning. Death is no option. The almighty God has given us our life; what right do we have to judge if it should be ended or not if it is not us who grant life to people. (see my sig why I oppose the death penalty)

All I'm saying is...give Holy War a chance. You see, the Devil is strong in the northern borderlands, in the woods. The demons, Azal, Azmidaeus, they all have a free hand there. In the deserts they live, under the sand. My grandfather, the desert father St. Hernan de Calamari, was exiled to the desert, and there converted, shown visions in the desert. He fought the demons. Can we?

It is unwise to simply start a Holy War. We should rather convert pagans in a peaceful way than by the sword. Offence causes defence. If we intend to spread our religion in an offensive way, that will only cause the pagans to defend their own religion and the resul will be but little or no conversions.

Cardinal Aidun Cian the older

[History Guy]

[ooc] Aidun! This is still the BCs! Nobody is against the death penalty! [/ooc]

Cardinal Cian, I do not believe that we should kill heretics outright at all. However, what do we do with heretics who flaunt the sacraments, ignore excommunication, and teach foul heresies from within the church? Can these people be tolerated if they persist? If so...the Church will collapse from within. Decadence and sin will take hold of Spain forever. Is this your ideal utopia? I am not for death as the first resort, but for the last resort. How else can we protect the Church, protect our youth, and protect Spain itself?!

I meant Holy War in spiritual terms. We must fight the Devil, for he is more powerful than any prince of this earth, for he is the Prince of this earth! It is he who is behind heresy and paganism. Conversion is the great tool to defeat him, yes...but his forces are strong. The Arabs worship him in their own religion, and they will force it on us in their fatwahs. We must be ready to take up the sword for Christendom.

Cardinal Calamari

[ThePlagueRat]

[ooc] At least some are against corporal punishment. [/ooc]

When I was a navigator-student at La Academia I was caned for bad behaviour.
Three red lashes on the back, and they poured salt into the wounds.

[DAVOUT]

Would the Inquisition been incepted, I would like that the Church knows that a strong arm directed by an iced mind will be needed for researching, investigating, questionning, receiving confessions and bringing before the Inquisitorial Court all heresiarcs, their families, theirs friends, their vassals and their servants; and that nobody in Spain can display more credential that the undersigned.

Christofo de Torquemada
Senechal

[Aidun]

Originally posted by History Guy
[ooc] Aidun! This is still the BCs! Nobody is against the death penalty! [/ooc]

[ooc]Well, the church might be. History Guy, time is relative. The age we are now in, the medieval age, is more important than the time. What the hell are we talking about: christianity; according to the time it takes still 775 years before he will be born. I agree that in the medieval day's the church was in favor of death penalty on heretics, but that does not deny me to be against it.[/ooc]

Cardinal Cian, I do not believe that we should kill heretics outright at all. However, what do we do with heretics who flaunt the sacraments, ignore excommunication, and teach foul heresies from within the church? Can these people be tolerated if they persist? If so...the Church will collapse from within. Decadence and sin will take hold of Spain forever. Is this your ideal utopia? I am not for death as the first resort, but for the last resort. How else can we protect the Church, protect our youth, and protect Spain itself?!

I don't believe the church will collapse, but I do believe in the everlasting patience of the almighty God and the lessons the Lord taught us in Matthew 18 verses 15-17, 21 and 22.
Even in Matthew 18 verses 15-17 is not stated that the death penalty should be used as the punishment for heretics and pagans.
This is not an utopia, it is the word of the Lord and the word of the Lord is not a utopia Cardinal Calamari.

Cardinal Aidun Cian the older

[History Guy]

Do you agree that St. Paul spoke the word of God? What about the Prophet Moses? Does Jesus ever condemn the death penalty outright?

The answers should be "Of course", "Yes", and "Well...uhhh...not reeeeeeally", respectively.

Take a look at Exodus. Look at the Commandments, and the verses that follow. Punishments ordained by God on Mount Sinai. And look at the Book of Romans, Chapter 1. God ordains this punishment to be used at certain times.

By the way, the literal meaning of utopia is an imaginary ideal society that is, in its own way, so ludicrous that it could not in any form exist. I certainly doubt that Christ's Kingdom is utopian in any form, I agree with you there.

Senor Torquemada...you aren't a Cardinal!

Cardinal Calamari

[ruby_maser]

I think we should burn anyone who disagrees with this statement:

I think we should burn anyone who disagrees with this statement

Anyone care to disagree?

[History Guy]

I'd agree there, old chap.

[GeneralTacticus]

ooc: No reason why Aidun can't be a few thousand years ahead of his time. All we have to do is make sur enobody else pays attention until we get to the stage where we can get rid of the DP. /ooc

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by History Guy


Senor Torquemada...you aren't a Cardinal!

Cardinal Calamari

Eminence,

I would not like you to worry; I have no desire to don the scarlet, my prefered color is rather the deepest black, as you know.

But the punishment of heretics requires a process of technicalities that priests and cardinals are not trained to fully mastered; I therefore condescended to offer my services to the Church only in that respect.

Of course, if the Cardinals intend to do the job in person, it is with the greatest interest that I will ... watch.


Christofo de Torquemada
Senechal

[History Guy]

Torquemada, when (if) a Pontiff is elected, we may then vote on an Inquisition to cleanse the country of heresy.

If that occurs...we will most assuredly assign you the duty of chief torturer.

I can just imagine you now...preparing the wrack...singing cheerfully to the poor, screaming heretic on the wrack..."Getting to know you...getting to know all about you!"

Charming thought.

Cardinal Calamari

[DAVOUT]

Eminence,

If I am singing cheerfully, it is because I am helping, in the very limited extent of my talents, to save a soul otherwise lost for the eternity. Nothing would make me more happy than helping to save yours.

Christofo de Torquemada
Senechal

[History Guy]

Have I offended you, Noble Watcher, that you must say such things to me? What have I done against you?

[ooc] Why does it seem like everyone in this game is intent in turning me off to it? [/ooc]

I hope it is nothing serious, for I seek enmity with no one. Indeed, open your door for my delivery cart. I give you as a present some fresh beef steaks, ready to be cooked.

Cardinal Calamari

[LzPrst]

Enough already *cough* *cough* we MUST have a safe haven for thinkers. Thinkers not doers well noted. In the Academia free speach MUST be protected.
The Inquisition should have no *cough* *cough* power there.

Whether it is right to kill or not is another question altogether, but one thing is sure: to kill a heretic or pagan for being a heretic or pagan is folly.
Hear my *cough* *cough* argument. Is it not so that every pagan that dies goes to hell? Is it not also said by the Lord himself that we should go forth and make all people his disciples?
By killing the pagans *cough* we send them to hell when they could possibly, in time, have been converted to serve the Lord! Thus the killing of pagans for God must be a contradiction in terms.
I am so old that I remember when we worshipped the spirits, then the multitude of gods. Yet there was hope for all us.
I am the firmest believer in our faith, not because I was forced to serve it but because I took my time, studied it and saw that it was indeed the truth.

Tolerance is what we must lea*cough* learn, or it will teach us a truly painful lesson. This inquisition should be directed at the church itself, not its members. If a man sins then let the church ostracize him until he repents.
It is abuse of power that the inquisition should be a guardian agains*cough**cough* *collapses*