Operation: Arabian Oysters - or a Plan to Snip our Northern Neighbors

[CiverDan]

AS long as Gow is getting iron from ND. At the very least they will remain neutral and not attack ND. There are only two ways around this. Either settle near the iron, which is not feasible in the time frame we are talking about and will delay the settling of better city city sites and distract our workers from more important tasks, or we ask GoW to stab ND in the back, and attack Dar-el-Killlam and Thoroba. This may work, but only if GoW doesn't think they will take too much of a rep hit and they feel that ND will not be able to get them back later. These type of negotiations can be very bad though. Right after ND is Lux began their war, Lux tried to get GoW to ally with them. We know what happened there...

[Thrumble]

Originally posted by CiverDan
Right after ND is Lux began their war, Lux tried to get GoW to ally with them. We know what happened there...

Let us not forget that GoW claims to have tried to offer Lux several deals to fight NeuDemonia and Trip refused to follow through on any of them. I believe he even mentioned it in one of his diplomatic messages.

My thought is that we might be able to swing GoW on our side if we can offer them an Iron resource. Without that though, I have a hard time seeing them attacking their source of Iron. This is the most likely reason ND is providing it to them, to control them with the resource needed to build their UU.

There is the possibility that ND will withdraw the Iron resource as soon as the they get Chivalry to prevent GoW from building Riders.

[ThePlagueRat]

What a great plotting thead this has become!

Ok, if we help GOW building Riders, we can perhaps gain their loyalty for a while. (never trust them totally, though) It would require a careful diplomatic assessment and should be critisized and discussed. It's an interressting approach...

For the ND diplomat sake, he could try to work out a deal where we give them some 10gpt for some nice tech right before we attack. It's a bad reputation thing to do, so we need to make them look worse.

If we want the element of suprise we gotta attack them first. Otherwise we can try to make GOW declare war on them.
That would require a bit more cunningness, and we can still pull them off with a 10gpt swindle...

[LzPrst]

Where does all this warmongering come from!?
I will tell you as a matter of fact: a country that focuses on reducing the strength of the enemy, loses in the long run as all other nations grow stronger while we are still quabbling in a meaningless war.
If you want to attack we should do it NOW! immediately move our forces to the border, send our horsemen to destroy their iron supply and we will win!
The longer we plan this attack the more of our precious time and resources it will drain. If they are weak to us now, we should strike now, as soon as possible. Before they build walls and a bigger army.
Gow will unlikely go to war with us because our lands are so far from theirs that any conquest would be isolated in the middle of ND territory. It is better for them, and us, to ensure one half of the continent each. common sense!
ND now has EIGHT! cities. we have SIX! GoW has SEVEN! We are wasting our potential! Let us secure our own lands. Let us REX like crazy now that we have an advantage and dont have to worry about being attacked.
We have more land and more resources. Lets make use of it instead of fighting bitterly for valueless land!
We must colonize OUR lands first before we think of taking theirs.

[astrologix]

While the GodKing plan is good, in matter of tactics, I think that we should carefully consider the current and future situation before making a great error.

Currently we are the good guys. Our diplomacy is the better one, and for all, Gow are the bad guys.

If we execute the GodKing plan, and assuming that we win, we'll become the bad guys and we'll have a global alliance against us. If we lose, the other countries will not trust us anymore.

We are not strong enough to slaughter ND, and even if we build more units, ND will do it too, simply because they ARE close to have their UU, they will prepare a war too.

As i've already said in the "Military Strategy" thread, I would continue to build more units in order to remain strong, mostly stronger than ND. If we do so, ND will certainly attack GoW before us, and then we will have the oportunity to stab ND in the back, with an international alibi.

As a result we will have a factual alliance with GoW to fight against ND, we will control all the iron sources of ND (preventing GoW to get one), and probably we will establish good conditions to win this game.

Consequently I would say that I mostly agree with the GodKing's military tactics but not with his political views.

I recommend to continue building units in order TO BE PREPARED to backstab ND at any time, but I would not be the agressor. And I recommend to build more cities at the north, so we'll be able to place troops near the ND cities, without alarming ND, because we could do it secretly. If we don't have cities in this area, it well be more difficult to do so, because ND can place watchers on the mountains near Stonedina who can discover our manoeuvers.

While waiting this inavoidable moment (the ND attack against GoW), we'll continue to settle all our lands and become a strong economic country.

[GodKing]

I am going to post an opinion poll...

[ThePlagueRat]

I tend to agree with the plan of involving GOW before ourselves. We could even pay them well to do the unholy stuff, if we just get a casus belli and can say... "We are going to help poor GOW because we know they have no chance alone"

Just now I would advise you to build many units of the most offensive calibre. We have many spearmen now, but we do not pose a real threat.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Putting this poor Ambassador to ND in the hot seat, eh?

It is clear that through any civ game there are several watershed times that are decision points. This is the third one, when nations are developed and stronger than every before, and just before the second upgrade of military offensive units. We either strike now or wait until the next point, which is just before Gunpowder is available.

We need to sound GoW out about the idea. What exactly have they done to transgress diplomatic conventions? Anything legit or just actions like settling with Vox for their city without consulting everyone else? That contravenes nothing, I don't think. Anyway, if they are the more untrustworthy (somehow), then it would cause less harm overall if they attacked ND first and we came to their "aid". Hell, they might even like the fact they will be seen as even more erratic by everyone else. If we guarantee them enough benefit (an Iron supply for some time could be benefit enough), this may be attainable. BUT, as others have pointed out, if we don't have GoW, we have nothing, unless they don't take the war as an opportunity (ie they have an utter brain meltdown).

Thus, we must know whether we can rely on GoW. Offer them Iron and some proportion of ND's lands, and hope like hell. Otherwise we are doomed to fail.

[DAVOUT]

We must have permanently an up to date plan to attack ND, but there are two prerequisites :
- our treasury is weak and cant afford right now a lot of additional military units
- we must have pikemen before launching the attack, and this requires also gold. When will Feudalism be discovered ?

Btw, as a commercial civ, our lack of gold at this stage is unusual and worrying; it would be useful to analyze wether we do not produce enough or we spend too much, or both.

[CiverDan]

We have to remember that we will have a very short window after Fuedalism to attack. If ND gets Chivalry, it wont work. This means upgrade as many swords as possible immediately after discovering Feudalism, then upgrade important spears (i.e. on cities vulnerable to any counteroffensive) about the time we declare.

I agree Gow will only help if they know we can give them iron in short order if they can't take ND's North source with an initial attack. I dont think we can connect that iron quick enough though. I don't want to waste a city location there. Is diverting enough workers to form a colony by then worth it?

[GodKing]

Bump - time to revive this plan and see what may happen...

[mrmitchell]

Group – Apocalypse. This group will be composed of 4 horsemen (named appropriately enough War, Petulance, Famine and Death).

I like your style. I think we should still do this, especially with how much more religious we are now.

As for the whole thing, I had never really thought of Golden Ages--if they get one we're screwed. Don't you get a Golden Age when your UUs just win a battle, no chance or nothing?

[Nuclear Winter]

100% cahcne of getting GA when your UU kills enemy... yeah that si why we dunnot want war... and add to this a possible backstab by another nation ALSO IN IT`S GA!!! It is certain doom!