Tech Deal Debate

[Togas]

Legoland offered to give us Construction + Currency if we promised to give them Engineering.

This would take place about the same time as when we receive Monarchy.

Alternatively, Neu Dem is researching Currency and GoW is researching Construction. Vox had wanted to help us split the cost of Currency and was willing to pay 1/2 of the cost if we gave them Currency, however, with the northern war brewing and Vox trying to scheme a way to build cities on this continent, relations with Vox may soon be strained.

What should we do? Should we get Constr & Currency from Legoland, giving Engineering in exchange (an even trade), or should we stick with our Bob neighbors on this issue? With our hefty repayment schedule to Legoland, it may be in our best interest to aquire tradeable techs now and try to quickly research Engineering, another tradeable tech.

Or are there better ideas?

Please discuss.

--Togas

[ruby_maser]

IIRC, you were under the impression that GoW and/or ND would go for Feudalism to get to Chivalry. Do we trust either team to give it to us in trade? What is Legoland shooting for right now, Monotheism or Feudalism?

Engineering would certainly decrease the movement cost of the extensive river systems in our vicinity. Monotheism would give us cheap Cathedrals (Of course, we do have 4 local luxuries). Neither is going to be more necessary than Feudalism to get the pikeman upgrades that are going to help us to weather the Middle Ages UUs of our neighbors.

Whatever we do with Lego, defense comes first, IMHO. In light of what our northern "friends" might try to throw at us, we should not lock ourselves into anything that would delay Feudalism. And if it is decided to be a safe bet, Lego must agree to a no-retrade clause so that we can profit from our research.

[Aidun]

And don't forget that Feudalism does not only give us pikemen, but also medieval infantry.

I agree with Señor El Ruby Maser that we should not let any deals delay getting feudalism. However now that our northern neighbours do not seem to have something to trade to us, I see no reason why not to further improve traderelations with Lego. If we continue to trade with Lego now, Lego will perhaps consider us as their worthy tradepartner: very ueseful to us. Partners always get discounts etc while you needn't to ask for it: compare the RP - GoW relations.

Second argument to trade with Lego: it is US who should further develop, not ND or GoW! [ooc] As long as we have not yet a system like the European Union we don't need to care much about our neighbours, they don't care a lot about us either![/ooc] Let us have our own foreign policy, be independant, but polite to everyone.

About Vox: don't make the international politics more complicated than it already is. It'll be hard to explain to our Bob-allies (this is something totally different than above, this is a military alliance and it has nothing to do with trade) that we have several agreements with our shared enemy. Let us politely refuse and ask for for instance an exchange of maps or so to have at least something to exchange.

Aidun Cian the older

[Thud]

My position is that of Aidun Cian in this. I will also inquire as to which of Monotheism\Feudalism Legoland aims to research.

[Togas]

Vox offered to sell us Monotheism for 5gpt + 65g OR they would sell us Monotheism & Currency for 11gpt.

Please discuss.

--Togas

[Togas]

Originally posted by Thud
My position is that of Aidun Cian in this. I will also inquire as to which of Monotheism\Feudalism Legoland aims to research.

Thud,

Please feel free to ask Legoland about this.

--Togas

[Thrumble]

I wonder if we really need all of these civs as trading partners? The bulk of the tech is coming from us and Lego, why not form an agreement to keep it to ourselves. We slow down tech research to prevent ND and GOW from getting to their Unique Units too quickly and instead work towards Military Tradition. Make them research Chivalry on their own.

Of course we wouldn't want to just come out and do this. We should diplomatically stall and steer them to becoming dependent on our research while they simply generate 100% revenue.

[OliverFA]

I think that señor Thrumble has made a valid point here. At the present moment everything gets traded with everyone so quickly, and the tech advantage is just inexistent because the civs give more value to the gold they can get from the tech than to the advantages of being the only ones who know it.

However, a research partnership with Lego needs at least two things to work:
1) Greater combined research production from Lego/RP than from the other civs, since the other civs are very likely to continue trading everything among themselves.
2) The will of Lego not to trade our techs to anyone.

Can we be sure of these two prerrequisites?

[Thrumble]

Not necessarily an embargo, esteemed Señor. But perhaps an artificial slow down, if it takes us 6 turns to research a tech we tell everyone but Lego that we will finish it 9 turns.

We become the self-aware throttle of the tech race.

[Aidun]

Señor Fernandez, we have to ask Lego about that.
About the point of Señor Thrumble: The time that all tech came from us is behind us now. We gain techs more through trade than because of our own research. There is no problem with that: it is good to specialize on things we are good on: Rexing and builing a strong army. We have but to maintain good contacts with our trading partners to ensure we keep developing technologically.
We have a rich country and we should use that riches to buy our techs: let's export luxuries and strategic goods to gain money to pay the tech deals. Just when we buy techs it is most important to have trading partnerships.

Aidun Cian the older

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by Togas
Vox offered to sell us Monotheism for 5gpt + 65g OR they would sell us Monotheism & Currency for 11gpt.

I don't like the precedent these deals will set. They seems to be trying to milk us with deals that require gpt. We will be assisting them in staying dominant in research.

[GodKing]

Trade with lego.

[Aidun]

Originally posted by ruby_maser

Originally posted by Togas
Vox offered to sell us Monotheism for 5gpt + 65g OR they would sell us Monotheism & Currency for 11gpt.

I don't like the precedent these deals will set. They seems to be trying to milk us with deals that require gpt. We will be assisting them in staying dominant in research.

The same counts for trading with Lego, we will; strengthen Lego's trade/tech position, but Lego is isolationist so we needn't to fear their power, while Vox is now even colonizing. But trading with Lego does not have the comlpications that trading with Vox might have.

Aidun Cian the older

[DAVOUT]

Al this raises the question of the benefits of tech trading for a commercial civ. It is too easily accepted that any tech trade is beneficial.

I have started a discussion on this subject in the intersite game forum

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1848228#post1848228

I must recognized that nobody seems interested

But this is a real problem. We are mislead by the easy tech trade with the AI which makes possible to gain a decisive tech lead. Interestingly, a commercial civ playing isolationism (as far as research is concerned) is able to gain a tech lead as easily as if it were tech trading. The reason is simply because the tech market will badly lack the necessary gold which is usually thrown in by the human.
It is reasonnable to expect that when the game advances, it will reaches a point where two or three civ are extremely close in winning potential; a tech lead, even small, will be one of the few points giving the victory.

[astrologix]

Yes, trade mainly with Lego !!