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Barelona: Temple vs. Settler

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  • #1

    Barelona: Temple vs. Settler

    About this decission of building a settler in Barcelona: I have my doubts. I don't want to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing, I want to start a constructive discussion about this. For that reason I will try to explain why I think that it's better to build temple and then settler than settler and then temple.

    Option A: Temple + Settler
    Temple is built in 8 turns, just the same turn that BCN grows. Then the new WF goes to #6, and BCN production (after corruption) is 4 shields. The Settler is done in 8 turns.
    Temple + settler: 8 + 8 = 16 turns

    Option B: Settler + Temple
    Settler is built in 8 turns. BCN drops to 1, and its production drops also to 1. (WF #5) Temple built in 17 turns (10 BCN size 1 plus 7 BCN size 2)
    Settler + temple: 8+17=25 turns

    Option C: Settler + Temple
    Like B, but after building settler WF is set to #8. Temple is built after 15 turns.
    Settler + Temple: 8+15=23 turns

    Option D: Settler + poprush temple
    Like B, but temple is poprushed when BCN get size 2 (10 turns)
    Settler+Temple:8+10=18 turns

    Among all these options I prefer option A. It gives us culture production sooner, which we need because ND has aprox 10% more culture than us, and would help us in culture fightings in the border.

    Of course there still many more options like building a Galley. I would like to know BCN Governors opinion about all that.
    "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
    "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)
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  • #2
    The option A sounds good to me.

    Btw, if we are getting MapMaking we should build a galley ASAP after the temple and the settler are done.

    Comment

    • #3
      Actually, with getting mapmaking soon, we should consider building a harbor before we build a temple, for these reasons:

      1) until the irrigation is completed, the city is limited to size 3 and has a slow growth while in size 2.

      2) once the irrigation is completed, the city will be limited to size 5 and have slow growth while in size 4.

      3) with both the irrigation and a harbor, the city can grow to size 6 an have faster growth us to size 5 and have regular growth through to size 6. While in the smaller sizes, it could have it normal (for now) growth and have a higher production and trade output (working the silks more).

      But as we also need more cities, I believe that it should build the settler first, but I will take a look at it in the spreadsheet.

      FYI, it will be 10 turns (from the next turn) until the first irrigation can effect the cities growth rate (4 more turns after that for the 2nd irrigation).

      In all fairness, I will look at all the senerios in the spreadsheet for Bcn.

      E_T
      Come and see me at WePlayCiv
      Worship the Comic here!
      Term IV DFM for Trade, Term V CP & Term VI DM, Term VII SMC of Apolytonia - SPDGI, Minister of the Interior of the PTW InterSite Demo Game

      Comment

      • #4
        My calculations are done without any irrigation improvement.

        I agree that we need settlers, but we also need temples to capitalize our trait and fight back ND. At the present moment our cities are still not in danger of being fliped, but once they build a temple in these border cities we would be in danger because they have higher culture than us.

        Anyway, we can have both things (temple plus settler plus border expansion) in 16 turns, while with the other options we have to wait a lot more (except with the option D maybe).
        "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
        "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

        Comment

        • #5
          I mostly agree with E_T : we need a settler soon, but after that completion and with the help of the irrigated tiles, I would Barcelona to grow without interruption in order to become a good factory city.

          The Barcelona potential, with all the hills around is to become a high productive city. We must let Barcelona grow, if not it's a waste of a city !!

          I await the E_T calculations to give my final decision

          Don Pedro de la Alcantarilla
          Hosting and playing the Civ4BtS APT
          Ex-Organizador y jugador de Civ4BtS Progressive Games

          Comment

          • #6
            Please continue this discussion as we still have time to change our mind.

            We appear to have a new window of opportunity as we are now equal in military strength to ND, we have secured our border cities, and our enemies are in the midst of their own REX. I want Spain to keep up the pace with our neighbors so long as it is reasonable to do so.

            Barcelona's settler may be settling a coastal site to the right of the river in Spice Valley. The settlement would give us spices, but growth would be very limited without irrigation, and forest cutting may also be required. Thus, multiple workers will be needed. Furthermore, this site may also be plagued by Barbarians and may need an additional unit (preferably a horseman) to protect it.

            Bottom line: We're investing in another city that won't pay off for some time ... not unlike Barcelona.

            Also note: Once Iron is linked up and our upgrade project is complete, we will unshackle Madrid to allow it to grow again and create a mix of settlers, horsemen, and spears.

            --Togas
            Greatest Moments in ISDG chat:"(12/02/2003) <notyoueither> the moon is blue. hell is cold. quote me, but i agree with ET. "
            Member of the Mercenary Team in the Civ 4 Team Democracy Game.
            Former Consul for the Apolyton C3C Intersite Tournament Team.
            Heir to the lost throne of Spain of the Roleplay Team in the PTW Democracy Multiplayer Team Game.

            Comment

            • #7
              My personal opinion about that: Once again we are facing a different situation. From being the most extended civ (not counting Lego which we don't know) we have become the second civ. ND has more score than us, but only for a few points.

              I think we must react, but without leting fear take control of our decissions. We've decided a few turns ago that we are going back to more expansion and less military building, so we are on the right way. I like the idea that Great Despot Togas expressed at the Cow Valley plan's thread of Madrid building a settler once iron is connected. This settler could go to cow valley and become that flood plains city we are talking about.

              But Barcelona, with all this slow growth doesn't seem the most indicated city to pop settlers. Maybe it can pop a settler or a worker after finishing the temple if we really feel like expansion is so important, but by building a settler first we are sacrifying too much production capability, and right now Barcelona is the only city able to do that.

              Just my thoughts about the matter.
              "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
              "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

              Comment

              • #8
                At first I wanted a settler first. Now I am leaning toward a temple first. I agree we will need workers and defense to make the city secure and productive, neither of which we have available at the moment for use.
                Citizen of the Apolyton team in the ISDG
                Currently known as Senor Rubris in the PTW DG team

                Comment

                • #9
                  I want the settler first. As irrigation comes to Barcelona, the city will rebound quicker, and she is not in threat from a neighbor civ to the point that border expansion is that necessary at the moment.

                  More cities = more everything

                  On a side note, I think we should also start considering a limited backfill policy to lay claim to anything in our south that would tempt another civ to settle there. Mapmaking is here. Let's not pretend that our southern paradise is invulnerable just because we have the continent cut in two.
                  "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." -- Abraham Lincoln

                  "Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever, in flesh and blood, walked upon this earth." -- Albert Einstein, in regards to Mohandis Gandhi

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Now that ND is quickly building cities, we have to quickly build cities of our own.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ruby_maser
                      On a side note, I think we should also start considering a limited backfill policy to lay claim to anything in our south that would tempt another civ to settle there. Mapmaking is here. Let's not pretend that our southern paradise is invulnerable just because we have the continent cut in two.


                      I have been seriously considering planting a city at the Ivory paradise ... the only ivory located on our continent to my knowledge. I wouldn't be surprised if GoW or ND decided to drop a ship with a settler and a few spears in our southern flank just to tempt fate.

                      Mostly because GF has commented to me on two occasions that he's "Very curious" about where all of the luxuries are located.

                      --Togas
                      Greatest Moments in ISDG chat:"(12/02/2003) <notyoueither> the moon is blue. hell is cold. quote me, but i agree with ET. "
                      Member of the Mercenary Team in the Civ 4 Team Democracy Game.
                      Former Consul for the Apolyton C3C Intersite Tournament Team.
                      Heir to the lost throne of Spain of the Roleplay Team in the PTW Democracy Multiplayer Team Game.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        I have done several senerios, with different combinations of Temple, Settler and Harbor with maxed Production and Growth. I have done this from 1300BC to 110BC (55 turns). All of these assume that the Arnelos worker will Irrigate Bcn #9 and #1 and then (possibly) road #6 (other forrest).

                        STH (Settler, Temple, Harbor)
                        Max Growth - Settler in 1075BC, Temple in 610BC, Harbor in 110BC. Trade by 110BC - 244.
                        Max Production - Settler in 1075BC, Temple in 610BC, Harbor in 110BC. Trade by 110BC - 254.

                        TSH
                        Mixed Growth - Temple in 1075BC, Settler in 825BC, Harbor in 150BC. Trade by 110BC - 259.
                        Max Growth - Temple in 1075BC, Settler in 775BC(will need Govenor set for emphasize production), Harbor in 170BC. Trade by 110BC - 266.
                        Max Production - Temple in 1075BC, Settler in 775BC(will need Govenor set for emphasize production), Harbor in 170BC. Trade by 110BC - 276.

                        HST
                        Max Production - Harbor in 670BC, Settler in 510BC, Temple in 250BC and a 30 point build (settler, galley) by 110BC . Trade by 110BC - 313.
                        Max Growth - Harbor in 670BC, Settler in 510BC, Temple in 270BC and a 30 point build (settler, galley) by 120BC . Trade by 110BC - 313.

                        HTS
                        Max Growth - Harbor in 670BC, Temple in 510BC, Settler in 410BC, then a Galley by 210BC and either having a 20 point build by 110BC or 22 sheilds towards something else (Lighthouse??). Trade by 110BC - 321.

                        That's all I have for now, I'll e-mail the sheets to Astrologix later today.

                        E_T
                        Come and see me at WePlayCiv
                        Worship the Comic here!
                        Term IV DFM for Trade, Term V CP & Term VI DM, Term VII SMC of Apolytonia - SPDGI, Minister of the Interior of the PTW InterSite Demo Game

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Fascinating!

                          So by your calculations I assume that you would choose the Harbour Temple Settler option?
                          "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                          "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by E_T
                            Trade by 110BC - 254.
                            Trade by 110BC - 259.
                            Trade by 110BC - 266.
                            Trade by 110BC - 276.
                            Trade by 110BC - 313.
                            Trade by 110BC - 313.
                            Trade by 110BC - 321.
                            Please, indulge me. What do the numbers after the date signify?
                            "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." -- Abraham Lincoln

                            "Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever, in flesh and blood, walked upon this earth." -- Albert Einstein, in regards to Mohandis Gandhi

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              That would be the gold reserves we have after that time with no rushes, presumably.
                              Consul.

                              Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

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