Time for a change....

[Nuclear Winter]

OK, Aidun, I trust you a lot, and I know you´d be a real @ss kicking king, but we must show unity, IMHO, or they will have the chance to do those terrible jokes about us, kind of ´´RP team is falling apart! hahahaha[insert silly mexican laughter in here];so I hereby accept Togas as the ruler, and king, et all. But I must state that I am unhappy with the military actions of us, and I must add that next turnchat there will be one boring Brazilian screaming ´´For God´s sake, do it the other way, you fools!´´ in the best republican tradition .
But we do need some internal strugle, to fuel our roleplayings, maybe someone challenging lord chamberlain´s post, or arnelos ´´Royal manipulator´´ post, or BF´s position, or Dejon´s one. Jeesh, as for me, gimme roleplay or gimme death!!!!

Ah, and yes, when the war is over and there is no longer sense for monarchy, there will be many disgruntled citizens wanting their rights back
Nuke

PS:. Man, it is because of things like this that I love this team !!!

[Hot Mustard]

Just for the record, the Dejon family vote was the first NO vote on this poll, and it is a resounding NO at that.

Togas and our diplomats created and raised the bar for diplomacy in PtW DG's. Perhaps if we had some pureblood warmongers amongst our members things might be turning out differently, but speculation won't get us anywhere, and I wouldn't trade this experience for anything anyway. Changing leadership now would be akin to denying what Spain was and is.

Btw, I'm now back at my place (from house-sitting). My internet connectivity was a little spotty earlier today but seems okay for now.

[Aidun]

Unity in the kingdom will not be a probem, I would install a new government s soon as possible. In the meanwhile old orders as well as old agreements and treaties remain unchanged.

Lord Libre and I protest but against the strange position that Lord Clemente has accuired and the fact that King Togas grants power to only few that he likes to give power, namely lord Dejon and Lord Clemente. Even I during the republic by you elected as Lord Chamberlain did not get any power from King Togas, although he was supposed to give me power.
Lord Winterius worded the position of Lord Clemente very good: "royal manipulator". What right did he have to achieve so much power? What mandate did the House of Lords gove this man? None.
Why is power only granted to a small elite in our kingdom, why has the King so much power?

I protest and revolt against this misuse of power by the King and Lord Clemente and you should do that too. You should have asked the king, if you would have had the courage, but you are afraid, afraid to wield a sword and afraid to be hurted by the King. Come on, my fellow Lords, show that you are worth to bear the title of Lord and protest instead of kissing the Kings toes!

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza.

[Togas]

This poll will remain open until the time we play the save, which will be in about 12 hours. If the dissidents do not have enough votes by then, I will install the old Monarchy under the traditional control of the Togas family.

As for Arnelos and Dejon ... They have done more than any other Spaniard to help this nation during this dark time. Dejon has done what he can to preserve our army and fight the enemy and kill the enemy where we have had opportunities. Arnelos is the architect and single person most responsible for getting Gathering Storm to aid us in this war.

Protesting against these two loyal and faithful men is folly. What has Lord Cian done other than lust after the throne? He has not fought against a single invader nor brought ANY sort of help to the people of Spain.

--Togas

[DAVOUT]

Lords of Spain,

There are times where the nobles have to stand up; faith and loyalty is due to Spain, and only as a consequence of it, we used to dedicate them to the King.

Spain has been lead to its current status by only one royal family. Those who describe the accomplishments of Togas as admirable enough to keep him in power are just playing with words. The situation is catastrophic and the responsibility is entirely on his shoulders.

The argument not to change the leader during a crisis is the best way not to overcome that crisis. We need new blood, new thoughs, new will.

Do not refuse the change because it would displease Togas; he knows well that people are ungrateful. The problem to-day is not to please, it is for Spain to seize the last opportunity to reverse the trend of History.

Tomas de Torquemada.

[Nuclear Winter]

I didn´t refuse change because it´d displease Togas, and I am offended that Davout can sugest me and other spanish lords could do this. I think we may be at the need of a refreshing in the kingdom, a cleansing of some failures that have been hapening, but I disagree with a brutal change. I also think that even though Arnelos and dejon hold more power than most, it is because tehy have been accomplishing their duties. I can disagree on many of their decisions, but I can´t in my sane mind dare to say they were negligent or lazy in their duties. And indeed Togas has always been open to sugestions, wich is something great. Indeed, many sugestions of my and of others were not followed, and that is why we call this a republic (ok, we used to call it a republic); people give sugestions, the persons assigned to those duties weight them and take their decisions, based on their opinions.

I myself see that the problem is that with this war , and all land lords moving to the capitol, there are too many nobles for too small land, and these fightings over power are nothing more than a consequence of this (and of the tense situation inside the walls of this great city that Pamplona is.
Acalm your minds and lets get back to business.

[astrologix]

Señores Fernandez and Nuclearis Winterius, your words are wise.

Accordingly, I've changed my mind and voted NO to this poll.

However, I think that the Lords Libre, Aidun and Davout are faithful and honest and corageus and would the best for Spain. Therefore, I suggest to our King to best integrate those Lords in the State's affairs and to reinforce the military side in order to do the best decisions. I suggest to our General to present a military plan for the next days to all the lords instead of giving orders in a hurry (OOC : an orders in a strategical thread instead of quick decisions taken in the next chat. The next turns will be critical and we should vote the main orders first).

Astronicus, Duke of Barcelona

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Nuclear Winter
I didn´t refuse change because it´d displease Togas, and I am offended that Davout can sugest me and other spanish lords could do this.

OOC

You have possibly been offended by Tomas de Torquemada (you certainly remember that he has already been in great trouble for some revolutionary speech), but not by Davout. In fact, I see no reason to express an opinion OOC on this subject.

/OOC

[Nuclear Winter]

OOC
Yes, I know that is why I used ´´spanish lords´´ et all. The Interim Pope Nuclecêncium the I would be very offended by that, but I myself am as cool as ice , In fact this situation is great for roleplay, and I like it a lot!

[Aidun]

I do not protest against the efforts of the most respectable Lords Dejon and Clemente, I protest against the way they gained their power.

Lord Dejon was appointed as General and that is totally legitimate, but the King seems to hear only military advises of him. Ofcourse do some advises of some Lords contradict, and finally the King has to make a decision, but more openness about this decisionmaking would be nice. However, that does not happen.

Lord Clemente's position is somewhat strange. His family suddenly came back in difficult times, something that I greatly appreciate and something for wich I am thankful. But in the new republic he could soon be seen to never leave from the Kings side. Again I ask: how did Lord Clemente gain his power. I believe that this was the old-by network.

Now tell me Lords, why should we allow the old-boy network and corruption in our kingdom?

And to you, your majesty, I ask you to forgive me when I was the 11 year old son of a recently died Lord, for not participating in the fight. If Lord Dejon would have explained that the army was so weak that even the children of Lords had to fight, I wouldn't have hesitated for a moment, but have grabbed for my sword.
As Lord Chamberlain I have tried to do what I can, but alas, the King preferred the service of Lord Clemente over mine.

Again I ask you my fellow Lords, prove that you are worth to bear the title of Lord. Let us make an end to this old-boys network and corruption.

Vote or change your vote now, it is still not too late

Lord Aidun Cian

[Togas]

Originally posted by Aidun

Lord Clemente's position is somewhat strange. His family suddenly came back in difficult times, something that I greatly appreciate and something for wich I am thankful. But in the new republic he could soon be seen to never leave from the Kings side. Again I ask: how did Lord Clemente gain his power. I believe that this was the old-by network.

Lord Clemente was appointed by the King to manage the very difficult task of organizing and directing our cooperation with Gathering Storm, and he has succeeded greatly in bringing their formidable power to our aid.

How dare you even question this! It is entirely in my power to direct Foriegn Affairs. It is my job to appoint Ministers and Ambassadors. The matter was too difficult for Senor Libre to handle, it required the dedictaion and patience and commitment that only Senor Clemente could provite. His efforts have given us the only real hope we have and may well save our nation. He is a hero in my eyes.

How dare you bring such absurd and petty complains against him! How can you question this man's devotion and contributions to our nation in our time of need? What has Lord Cian OR Lord Libre done to save Spain? Neither of you has killed a single Moorish or Chinese invader. Neither of you have brought us allies or even brought contributions of Gold to Spain to aid in our defense!

If you want to make a case for your seizing power, you'd be wise to direct your criticism against me. I'm sure you could make an argument for my removal, but trying to smear the name of Lord Clemente is, frankly, not possible. The man's honor and stature far outweighs your own.

--Togas

[BigFree]

Originally posted by Togas
Arnelos is the architect and single person most responsible for getting Gathering Storm to aid us in this war.

--Togas

Uh, I thought I had a hand in this action as well?

It's nice of you to give credit to Arnelos and dejon, but there have been other that have help out in this game as well. Though I have not posted every chat (upon request of nye) I have been very involved in getting GS to side with us from the begining.



Shame on those that are afraid of what our image will be if we change leadership. I'm more afraid of what IS happening to Spain than our game play image...

[Aidun]

Originally posted by Togas
How dare you even question this! It is entirely in my power to direct Foriegn Affairs. It is my job to appoint Ministers and Ambassadors. The matter was too difficult for Senor Libre to handle, it required the dedictaion and patience and commitment that only Senor Clemente could provite. His efforts have given us the only real hope we have and may well save our nation. He is a hero in my eyes.

You haven't heard me saying that he did not do his job well, honestly, I would like to rewatd him for doing such an excellent job, if I had the power to do that.

Yes, You have the power to appoint ministers that is true. But I also see that it are always the same that get the nice jobs there is a kind of elite in all of the demogames. Others that have great ideas don't get the chance to change these into policy. That elite is called the old-boys network and it has to be over now.

How dare you bring such absurd and petty complains against him! How can you question this man's devotion and contributions to our nation in our time of need? What has Lord Cian OR Lord Libre done to save Spain? Neither of you has killed a single Moorish or Chinese invader. Neither of you have brought us allies or even brought contributions of Gold to Spain to aid in our defense!

I will only repeat it one more time, your majesty:

And to you, your majesty, I ask you to forgive me when I was the 11 year old son of a recently died Lord, for not participating in the fight. If Lord Dejon would have explained that the army was so weak that even the children of Lords had to fight, I wouldn't have hesitated for a moment, but have grabbed for my sword.
As Lord Chamberlain I have tried to do what I can, but alas, the King preferred the service of Lord Clemente over mine.

If you want to make a case for your seizing power, you'd be wise to direct your criticism against me.

If you listen carefully, you can hear that I only direct my criticism against you.

... but trying to smear the name of Lord Clemente is, frankly, not possible.

I do not smear the name of Lord Clemente, you should listen more carefully majesty. You are creating the elite in Spain. You are responsible for that, not good Loed Clemente. He profits from it, that is all, but it is you who are putting your friends in powerful positions.

The man's honor and stature far outweighs your own.

Lords, now you hear the real mind of your King. He dislikes the Lord Chamberlain and uses this as an argument to give his friend in government more power.

STOP THIS CORRUPTION NOW!


If you do not vote against the King, I hold you all responsible for turning Spain into a corrupt paradise where power is not dependent on idividual qualities but solely on the good relation with the King!

Lord Aidun Cian, Duke of Zaragoza

[BigFree]

I have no criticisms of Arnelos; I may not agree with his advice at times, but he is free to give it as he wishes. Arnelos is a most appreciated member of this team and if doesn't know it, I respect him highly. I only criticized Togas's advice taking abilities/dispostition. He only takes advice from a few certain people. Aidun was elected, fairly, as second in command, yet he has nearly no voice in RP matters that are apparent to me.

Decisions have to be made in this game, advice or no, I do not like some of the decisions made by Togas, so I called for a change. The matter of whether or not Togas follows advice from second in command is another matter.

My largets criticism of Togas is the way he has handled our troops in war time. We now stand with more troops than we can support. If GS, had forgeten, again, to gift us gold, we would have lost troops/stayed in anarchy. I'm not syaing we should always attack, in fact I'm not going to make this a post about a single turn of strategy. It's just that we have not set ourselves up to do any counters against either invader. Togas said that the defenses were strong in Salmanca due to hills and walls there; yet if we knew that why did he not station more troops there to defend it. Walls and hills do nothing for you if you have little to no troops there. The mistake was,(not not attacking Salmanca, but garrisoning troops there to defend it. Togas has miscalculated the strngth of ND/GoW forces and has overprotected Pamplona while leaving the rest of our cities open to free attacks. Will we survive with only a few cities? We will be able to compete? To me, it would have been better to try to defend more of Spain than to let ND/GoW have it with nary a fight. This is the kind of thing that got me rilled up.

[ruby_maser]

I will support anyone who will fight to the bitter end. No peace ever and no pitiful, desperate attempts to buy an ignoble existence somewhere between life and death.