Announcement

**Arnelos** · July 19, 2003, 21:33

SUMMARY

- Spain keeps ALL of its traditional territory, minus Bilbao
- Spain will claim all Neu Demogyptican lands from Neu Theben and the ND mountains south.
- GS will claim northern Bob and will place their FP likely where ND and Lux once had their dueling cities
- GS will claim ports along the Eastern coast of Bob so they can land troops to take out ND and GoW.
- Several alterations to the treaty, including a few veto issues to align our foreign policies with one another
- I told GS about 2 aspects of a long-standing treaty we have with Lego (that Lego is not permitted to attack us for a looooong time to come and that they have to give us techs at reduced price)

Read the log for the specifics.

**History Guy** · July 19, 2003, 21:41

Yeah, you won me over.

Superb. This is splendid news. The Papal Line of Demarcation will be signed across the mountains, if you like.

I'm very pleased that we keep our land and that we get Neu Theban! That makes this whole thing worth while!

**mrmitchell** · July 19, 2003, 23:12

Sounds great

**Togas** · July 20, 2003, 01:52

We keep our lands AND we get Neu Dem's lands?!

They convert to Catholosism?!

They're sending an initial force of 16-18 units?!

This is the best news I've heard all week!

I could not be happier.

--Togas

**civman2000** · July 20, 2003, 08:27

The initial force of 16-18 actually scares me. That they're willing to send that much so soon almost makes it sound as if....they plan to get a piece of the spoils...

On the other hand, we're gonna die if we don't make an agreement with them, so we really have nothing to lose.

Daniel de la Civ

**Arnelos** · July 20, 2003, 08:50

The revised treaty:

Treaty of Permanent Partnership Between the Gathering Storm and Spain

Purpose

The purpose of this treaty is to affirm the creation of a permanent partnership between the nations of the Gathering Storm and Spain, the purpose of which is to ensure the security and prosperity of both nations for all time to come. The member nations shall seek to cooperate with one another in the future to ensure joint success in the competition of the nations through a victory on the part of the Gathering Storm and prosperity for Spain.

Article I - Non-Aggression

1. Neither nation shall ever attack the other.

2. Neither nation shall ever declare war upon the other.

Article II - Sharing of Luxuries

1. The partner nations shall share all available luxuries with one another unless Clause 2 or 3 is activated.

2. By a joint decision of the two nations, they may decide to forgo one of their nations having a luxury in order to sell it to a foreign power.

3. If only one source of a luxury should exist between the partner nations, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide what nation that luxury shall go to.

Article III - Partnership in Technological Research

1. The partner nations shall share all technologies in their possession with the other unless Clause 2 is activated.

2. By a joint decision of the partner nations, they may decide to forgo sharing a given technology with one or the other nation.

3. Cooperative research goals shall be discussed between the partners and if any conflicts exist, they shall be resolved by a decision by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

4. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sell a technology to a foreign power.

Article IV - Wonders of the World

1. The partners shall inform each other of what wonders of the world they are planning to construct.

2. If any conflict exists in plans by the partners to construct wonders of the world, the nation of the Gathering Storm may make a decision on what wonders it will construct that the nation of Spain will not.

Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance

1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner.

2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

3. If the nation of the Gathering Storm decides to declare war upon a foreign power, the nation of Spain shall do so as well if this is requested by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

4. If the partners jointly agree, the nation of Spain may unilaterally declare war upon a foreign power that has not invaded its territory.

5. The partners shall cooperate in all military matters during any war by sharing information about troop positions, intelligence about the enemy, and plans.

6. For any territory conquered from a foreign power in war, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide to which partner the territory shall eventually be awarded and when it shall.

Article VI - Exchange of Territory

1. Parts of Spain, as jointly decided by the partners, shall be transferred from Spain to the Gathering Storm during the war to aid in the defense of allied lands on the continent of Bob. At the war's end, all such lands ceded to the Gathering Storm shall be returned to Spain with the exception of the port city of Bilbao.

2. Spain shall keep, as its official possessions, all lands historically within the boudaries of Spain and all lands to the south of current Spanish territory upon the continent of Bob with the exception of Bilbao and another Gathering Storm port to the northeast of Madrid.

3. When the lands south of the central Bobian mountains in Neu Demogyptica are conquered by the alliance, the cities of Marlowa, Arneblanca, Neu Theben, Trippolis, Mavdad, their environs and lands south of them will be granted to Spain.

4. All land on the continent of Bob not reserved to Spain in Clauses 1 through 3 shall be given to the Gathering Storm upon its conquest by the alliance.

5. Neither partner shall ever accept the cultural conversion of a city belonging to the other partner. Should any cultural conversion of a city take place from one partner to the other anyhow, the city in question shall be immediately returned to its original owner.

6. The partners may exchange additional territory by mutual agreement at any point in the future and such agreements may include the exchanging of lands with nations not a party to this partnership at the mutual agreement of both partners.

ARTICLE VII - Additional Agreements

1. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a non-aggression agreement with a foreign power.

2. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a mutual-protection agreement with a foreign power.

3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by the partnership with foreign powers.

ARTICLE VIII - Ratification

1. Once this treaty has been signed by the representatives of each partner, those representatives are responsible for taking the treaty back to be ratified by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm.

2. Upon ratification by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm and notification of this ratification in each case is sent to the other nation, this treaty will go into effect and the partners will be bound by its terms.

ARTICLE IX - Ammendments

1. This treaty may be ammended if representatives of the two partners mutually agree to an ammended version of the treaty and such an ammended treaty is then ratified using the guidelines found in Article VIII.

SIGNATURES

___________________

Francisco Clemente, Representative of Spain

___________________

Notyoueither, Representative of the Gathering Storm

After NYE and I have finished hashing out the last details (if anything needs to be hashed out), this will be submitted for a vote on both sides (and the King as well on our side).

**Arnelos** · July 20, 2003, 08:56

Shoot! I forgot the clause in Article I about "attacking" for the purpose of us getting those catapults... grr... I knew I was forgetting something.

I'll add that and send it ammended to NYE again

**Arnelos** · July 20, 2003, 09:02

Ok, corrected version of this treaty sent (slight change to Article I to allow us to exchange artillery units through an "attack").

I hope that does it.

**LzPrst** · July 20, 2003, 09:33

I'm not all too happy with article VI clause 4.
What if it turns out that our armies are more effective than GS'? And we conquer city after city to the north and then... just stop, cause we're not allowed to keep them. I think that would give GS too much.
Also I'm not happy that they ALWAYS get the final say.
I think for the sake of balance that we should have at least ONE article where we decide.

Disregard that and I think this must be one of the best works of diplomacy I've seen in years (I just hope it doesnt end up like the München-treaty...)

**History Guy** · July 20, 2003, 11:04

I'll sign it, Lord Clemente.

Pope Calixtus I

**mrmitchell** · July 20, 2003, 12:30

Well, it's our only chance, but it's a damn good one

**E_T** · July 20, 2003, 12:31

I'm behind this, 100%.

Eta Tamali Family

**Togas** · July 20, 2003, 14:13

When the treaty comes to us, I would like to have the Pope, the Lord Chamberlain, myself, and our special Ambassador to GS Arnelos all sign it.

--Togas

**Arnelos** · July 20, 2003, 19:15

Final Revision of the Treaty

notyoueither> hi
Arnelos> hello
Arnelos> I have the nagging suspicion that there's another edit I forgot
notyoueither> hehe
notyoueither> the subject to clause, and the secrecy clause
Arnelos> ah hah
Arnelos> secrecy
notyoueither> Article VII
Arnelos> "the subject to clause"
notyoueither> 4. With the exception of Article I, this treaty is subject to restrictions which Gathering Storm may be under due to agreements with foreign powers. If Gathering Storm is unable to fulfill a clause of this treaty, because doing so would cause a violation of an agreement with a foreign power, then Gathering Storm will not be considered to have violated this treaty.
notyoueither> 5. The existence of this treaty, and the terms of it, are to be kept secret from all civs and individuals who are not members or citizens of Gathering Storm or Spain. Gathering Storm may grant permission to disclose the existence of this treaty or specific details of it when Gathering Storm feels it would be beneficial to do so, at which time specified details may be disclosed, but the remainder will remain secret.
Arnelos> ok
Arnelos> both in Article VII?
notyoueither> do those look ok?
Arnelos> they'll work
notyoueither> ok
notyoueither> how soon can Togas or you sign off?
Arnelos> Togas is offline at the moment
notyoueither> we could consider if ratified by GS now, with those two clauses
Arnelos> pinged out... so he's probably have more connection problems
notyoueither> oh. ok
Arnelos> ok, when he gets back on, I'll check with him and we'll post it for ratification on our end if we're cool with it
notyoueither> ok. how long to ratify?
Arnelos> 1-2 days for the vote
notyoueither> damn
Arnelos> you guys may not even have the save by then
notyoueither> it puts us in a vry awkward spot
notyoueither> we have it now
Arnelos> oh
notyoueither> if we accept those cities, we put ourselves in it
notyoueither> if you fail to ratify...
Arnelos> I'm pretty the chances of that are nil
Arnelos> btw...
Arnelos> wait - nevermind
notyoueither> ok
notyoueither> we would feel much better if it were signed
Arnelos> Well, Togas and I can sign it for sure
Arnelos> but it needs to be ratified
notyoueither> well, we can sit on the save for 24 hours
Arnelos> btw... for that clause 4... I'm trying to figure exactly what that means for various agreements
Arnelos> for instance... Article V (MPP)
Arnelos> this line is already there:
Arnelos> 2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm.
Arnelos> I assume this already gave GS insurrance on being dragged in
notyoueither> true. but the future holds many possibilities
notyoueither> we would like it specified that if we are bound, we are not in breech of this
Arnelos> I'm just concerned that some people might take exception to that clause 4 as an opt-out clause
Arnelos> in other words, allowing GS to sign agreements with other powers with the specific intent of freeing themselves from obligations in this treaty
notyoueither> i understand, but we have no way of knowing what will crop up later
notyoueither> beleive that it would be in our interests to see a healthy and happy rp
Arnelos> true, it would
notyoueither> ahh. gs would not do that
Arnelos> not saying it's a RATIONAL fear, mind you... but there are people on both of our teams who have a penchant for irrational fears
notyoueither> Arnelos> in other words, allowing GS to sign agreements with other powers with the specific intent of freeing themselves from obligations in this treaty
notyoueither> we would not do that
Arnelos> ok, I'll have to take your word for it
notyoueither> it might come into play with NT clauses on techs.
Arnelos> true
notyoueither> or with lux and resources
Arnelos> that's the one major concern, I agree
Arnelos> hmm... I have an idea
notyoueither> k
Arnelos> since GS already gets a veto over Spain's treaty agreements with foreign powers, would it not make sense to re-word this clause 4 to cover agreements with foreign powers by both nations?
Arnelos> for instance, if Spain were to obtain a tech at discount from Lego (as they are obligated), but it had a 10-turn NT clause?
notyoueither> we would agree to that when we agreed to the trade between you and lego
Arnelos> while true, the treaty states we're obligated to immediately provide it to you unless a joint decision is made not to. So unless both sides agree not to, Spain would be obligated to break one agreement in order to fulfill another.
notyoueither> the bottom line is, that we cannot anticipate all the things that other powers may dream up for future agreements
notyoueither> we would agree to the nt with us or we would veto it.
notyoueither> article 1 is not subject to anything
Arnelos> my thought is that if GS has veto power over all foreign agreements by Spain, adding Spain to the clause 4 you've written only creates insurrance against Spain violating one agreement to fulfill another, GS still has veto power
notyoueither> there would be no GoW squirming to betray an MPP partner
notyoueither> what about existing agreements?
Arnelos> that's the problem, isn't it?
notyoueither> yes
Arnelos> what existing agreements are there?
Arnelos> We ATTEMPTED to obtain NAPs from several powers, but were turned down... so that's not a problem
notyoueither> what we want to do is cover it so that should an unforseen situation come up, where we are bound by another for a trade or some such, and we are bound to you
notyoueither> we are not breaking either
Arnelos> the only agreements currently active are an MPP with GoW which runs out this turn (which they already broke and it's basically gone), and our original agreement with Lego whereby they owe us a lot as payment for favors we did for them long ago
notyoueither> it is very important to us to never break an agreement
notyoueither> well, we could get into a lot of extra language, and further delay, but...
Arnelos> I suppose all I'm asking is that if Spain is to become a partner, that we be given the same leeway to not be breaking agreements. Afterall, if Spain's foreign policy is essentially being lead by GS, if Spain violates one treaty to fulfill another, GS is responsible for this violation.
Arnelos> as GS has veto power over all Spanish treaties
notyoueither> i see your point. i fear some in gs may have a problem with it
notyoueither> we could amend later
notyoueither> once we have a chance to do a good job of it, and we have time to make peopls in gs feel more secrue
notyoueither> right now, we are under some time contstraints
Arnelos> the main concern is NT clauses the RP may have to agree to if you guys see we can get a tech for cheaper than you from the same source (because they don't like GS). Will we then be required to break our NT agreement with that source to immediately give it to you or would we wait in order to uphold the NT clause?
Arnelos> yes, I understand the time issue
notyoueither> no. when we agree to the trade, we would be agreeing to the nt
Arnelos> hmm...
notyoueither> we would not require you to break an agreement with another like that
Arnelos> perhaps, since GS has veto over all Spanish treaties, it would be easier to say that GS is bound to honor treaties that it approves Spain to sign
notyoueither> that has possibilities
notyoueither> can you write it up quickly. sounds simple enough
Arnelos> will do
notyoueither> paste it into here
Arnelos> just added a sentence fragment to GS veto clause
Arnelos> here:
Arnelos> 3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by Spain with foreign powers and is thus carries an obligation to honor agreements made by Spain with foreign powers.
Arnelos> oops
Arnelos> grammar
Arnelos> the "is" before "thus" is removed
Arnelos> 3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by Spain with foreign powers and thus carries an obligation to honor agreements made by Spain with foreign powers.
Arnelos> is that all?
notyoueither> ok
Arnelos> alright then
notyoueither> i will post that. I think it will find rapid agreement
Arnelos> I'll post on our end
Arnelos> I have to double-check the Magna Carta-like document we wrote when we switched to Republic... don't even remember what the exact procedure on treaties is in terms of where it has to go through... pretty sure we just have to vote on it and the king has to sign it.
notyoueither> Arnelos, one additional word
Arnelos> shoot
notyoueither> Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by Spain with foreign powers and thus carries an obligation to honor future agreements made by Spain with foreign powers.
notyoueither> addition of the word future
Arnelos> got it
Arnelos> will do
notyoueither> cool
Arnelos> done
Arnelos> that's sensible
notyoueither> i should send it ratified to you very soon
Arnelos> ok
notyoueither> within an hour or two
Arnelos> great
Arnelos> how does that work on your end?
notyoueither> please get the ratification going.
Arnelos> will do
notyoueither> we ahev already agreed among ourselves
Arnelos> ah
notyoueither> i am here to get it done
notyoueither> consensus
notyoueither> damn. we even polled on this one

Announcement

Renegotiation of Treaty with NYE of GS...

Renegotiation of Treaty with NYE of GS...

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