Draft of GoW-RP Alliance Treaty

[Arnelos]

Please note that this is the first draft. Please alter as needed before sending anything to GoW.

btw... the Latin dictionary I usually use I couldn't access, to I'm not entirely sure "Foedus" is the right word here, but I know Gloria Bellum is Glory of War.

This has been edited by Togas
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Hispanica - Gloria Bellum Foedus
Spanish - Glory of War Alliance

Statement of Purpose
This is an alliance between the nations of Spain and the Glory of War. It is a general mutual-defence agreement, a non-aggression pact, a non-settlement agreement, and a full military alliance upon the event of either party going to war.

Article I
Definition of established territory

The territory of Spain is defined as all land inside Spain's cultural borders and all lands on the continent named Bob south of the Spanish city of Toledo.

The territory of the Glory of War is defined as all land inside China's cultural borders, all lands on the continent named Bob north of the Glory of War city of Tatung, and all lands on the island which has the cities of Camulodunum and Zenophobia.

Article II
Redefinition of the territory

Either party may propose to redefine their national territory and the change shall be effective upon the agreement of the other party.

The definition of the territory of both parties may be changed if:

New territories will be found, under the condition that these new territories are fully explored and unsettled by any other nation;

New settlements, that are outside of the land defined in Article I, are founded;

New territory, that is outside of the land defined in Article I, is accuired in any way;

Territory, that is part of the land defined in Article I, is lost in any way.


Article III
Causes that activate the mutual-defense pact

If another nation settles on the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the offending nation that they claim those lands, both the offended party and the other party in the treaty will declare war on the settling nation if the party that claims these lands requests this.

If another nation moves military forces into the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the offending nation that they claim those lands, both the offended party and the other party in the treaty will declare war on the offending nation if the party that claims these lands requests this.

If another nation attacks any units or cities belonging to a party to this treaty or pillages any improvements within the territory of a party to this treaty, the offended party and the other party to this treaty will declare war on the offending party if the offended party requests this.

Article IV
Non-settlement & Non-agression ageement

Neither party shall settle in the territoriy that the other party has claimed to be his as stated in Article I or II. Neither party shall enter the claimed territory of the other party without prior approval. Also neither party shall declare war on the other, attack the units of the other, or enter the cultural borders of the other without express permission.

Neither party shall commit espionage against the other.


Article V
Full Military Alliance against the Nation of Neu Demogyptica

If and when one party to this alliance declares war on and attacks the nation of Neu Demogyptica any nation, the other party is then obligated to declare war on and attack the nation of Neu Demogyptica if the first attacking party requests this.

Upon the agreement of both parties, or by the invocation of Article III, this Article shall be called into action and war shall be declared on an enemy by both parties.

Once war with Neu Demogyptica has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties are obligated to provide the positions of all military forces in territory south of the Glory of War city The Hill and north of the Spanish city Bilbao of the enemy, the theatre of war, or on route to the enemy to the other party in order to improve military coordination between the parties.

Once war with Neu Demogyptia the enemy has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties are responsible to keep each other informed of where their military forces will be heading in the coming turns and specifically what cities or other strongholds of the enemy they will be assaulting.

Once war with Neu Demogyptica has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties shall share their world maps with one another.

Article V
Duration of the Treaty

The Treaty shall have a lenth of 40 turns, starting in the turn in which it has been completed being signed by both parties.

The Treaty may be extended for any amount of turns upon the agreement of both parties.

Article VI
Settlement of any war

In the case of any war where the alliance has been activated and both parties are at war with another nation, the parties shall jointly agree to any terms for ending the war and no separate peace treaties shall be made.

Any and all additions to the official territory of either power as defined in Article I can be temporarily agreed to before the end of a war, but may be altered at the end of the war when a final agreement of permanent borders as defined in Article I will be negotiated by both parties as part of the joint peace agreement.

[Arnelos]

I used the Legoland alliance as a template, but HEAVILY altered stuff to remove things we actually don't want here (such as a requirement to declare war on the same turn, etc.).

[Togas]

Note my additions and deletions.

--Togas

[mrmitchell]

sounds nice...IF they arent just tricking us.

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
sounds nice...IF they arent just tricking us.

Which I strongly suspect they are.

Togas, Arnelos - are you both really believing tales spun by a GoW member?!? Are you letting the fact that we haven't caught UnOrthOdOx in a lie in the past bewitch you? Wake up and smell the GoW scroundels for what they are!

[mrmitchell]

Good point. Keep all GoW diplo to a minimum or none; they're not trustworthy. Say we need something as a symbol of good faith, like, say, 3 cities.

[History Guy]

China is untrustworthy. We may be hairy western devils, but we aren't dumb hairy western devils. We should make sure they know what we demand from them in return for anything.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by dejon


Which I strongly suspect they are.

Togas, Arnelos - are you both really believing tales spun by a GoW member?!? Are you letting the fact that we haven't caught UnOrthOdOx in a lie in the past bewitch you? Wake up and smell the GoW scroundels for what they are!

Dejon... this is the second thread I need to note this in:

You will note that there exists NO obligation anywhere for RP team to even lift a finger until AFTER Glory of War has already both declared war AND actually "attacked" the enemy (which I intend for Spain to liberally interpret as we will... there needs to be some blood lost or it's no "attack"). As such, if GoW does not attack ND first, RP Team will keep its entire built-up military behind its lines.

The only way this treaty is activated is if GoW both declares war AND attacks, thus already committing themselves to a bloodbath with ND. Then and ONLY then does RP Team agree to enter such a war - period.

That said, I was the one in chat still voicing a concern about Gathering Storm. Even in conditions where GoW and ND are engaged in a mutual bloodbath and we could tip the scales, I too wonder whether it would be safe to do so with Gathering Storm at our backs. The only way I can see to justify it is if we have a significant force, including galleys, guarding our eastern shore against GS amphibious assault.

As for your concerns that Togas and I have officially lost our minds and are signing Spain up to go galloping after ND without asking anything from GoW, you're WAAAY off base.

Have a little more faith in us

[Arnelos]

Something of interest to note....

You know... the funny thing is... the fact that half our own team doesn't understand that we aren't promising GoW anything under this treaty that we haven't already promised them before (other than that we'll attack at some point AFTER they've attacked...) is an encouraging sign to me.

You see, if half our team doesn't "get it", I have a hope that most or all of their team won't "get it" either (I hope, I hope, I hope).

Don't you see? This entire long, drawn-out, legalistic treaty is one big fat honkin' ZERO. If GoW had attacked ND on their own, we already had thoughts of eventually intervening when things got hot. All we're doing here is telling GoW that we "promise" to eventually do just what we were already thinking of doing on our own... stealing ND land if GoW weakens ND to the point where we can get away with it.

If ND attacks us and it is GoW's intention to then backstab ND in a similar manner, that's what we were already expecting to happen... nothing lost, nothing gained.

This whole treaty does nothing and accomplishes nothing.

In fact, the ONLY thing meaningful in the entire stupid document is that it compels the partners to the treaty to share troop movements of any troops in ND territory... and that's information we'd WANT if they'll be so kind as to give it to us.

The compelling reason to SIGN such a treaty with Glory of War is that there's an outside chance those guys will now actually attack ND themselves with our "promise" of aid we were already going to give. This has the potential to PRE-EMPT any ND attack upon Spain and I'd much rather avoid fighting in Cow Valley if it's possible to avoid it... I don't care if the propability even was that we would probably "win"... I don't want to be losing population, tile improvements, and troops to it.

Granted, this treaty might do nothing for us, but then we're only as bad off as we started.

[Nuclear Winter]

I believe we should get Chivalry to sign this. A sign of firendhsip... and besides, even if we do not attack right in 5 turns, we are far from preapred... and if events sudenly change to give us teh opportunity to choose [i]when[\i] to fight, then I think humbly that we should take our time... get some boats to help us (borrowed from lego or not...) build cats & pikes and KNights!Ya, I think there is no other way to keep strugling for survival...
Nuke

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Nuclear Winter
I believe we should get Chivalry to sign this. A sign of firendhsip... and besides, even if we do not attack right in 5 turns, we are far from preapred... and if events sudenly change to give us teh opportunity to choose [i]when[\i] to fight, then I think humbly that we should take our time... get some boats to help us (borrowed from lego or not...) build cats & pikes and KNights!Ya, I think there is no other way to keep strugling for survival...
Nuke

We can always stall on signing the treaty until we're ready... not a big deal.

[Togas]

I had a discussion with Aidun about this earlier this evening, so much of the discussion is fresh in my mind.

I do not ask that Spain follow blindly wherever we are lead, or that we jump at mirages and say "yes" whenever we are being sold a fairy tale.

Is it possible that Unorthodox is doing an excellent spin job on us and deceiving us? Yes, anything is possible. But we can't make decisions or plans based on our fear of being fooled. We must make decisions based on what is practical, realistic, and logical. We must not only filter out the bullsh*t we are often told, we must be able to jump at opportunities and take advantage of very small diplomatic windows. We must act when action is called for.

To discern the likelihood of if we're being lied to or if we're being told the truth, we must assume different motives for Unorthodox, and then match his behavior, statements, and the likly consequences of such to the motive. We must think about this from their point of view, and determine what manipulation they'd try to make, and then determine if their action would result in that manipulation.

For example: If GoW wants to attack us, they would attempt to manipulate us to lower our guard, or to get distracted with another enemy. They would draw attention away from themselves and attempt to surprise us.

Unorthodox told us things that will lead us to build up military units, not disarm. He told us things that will get us in a mindset where we're ready and anxious to fight. His message to us, of course, polarized us against ND (and not GoW), but seriously, was fighting GoW ever on our mind? We believed it was possible that GoW would help ND for their own gain (and backstab them soon after) but the real threat has been ND all this time.

Unorthodox even tossed in their belief (which I think is baseless) of a GS-ND alliance. If he had a plan in place with GS for us to attack ND so that GS could sneak in from behind, would he tell us any of that?

It is possible that GoW could fake a war or take advantage of us during a war, so the terms we included in the treaty about unit sharing, updating movements, sharing map, intel, etc, will make that VERY hard to pull off. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. The closer we get to GoW the more difficult it will be for them to fool us and betray us.

Ultimately, this is what we always wanted. Over and over again we've asked for an alliance. True, it's possible that GoW could reneg or break it, betray us, all that. But it's MORE possible that they will betray us if we forsake them and go with no agreement. GoW is smart, they know they can't win war on their own. ND has Ansars and attacking anyone else just isn't feasible with their limited navy and fear of being invaded by ND. They're going to find an ally somewhere. I'd rather it be us.

One more point. If you're on the outside looking in, who do YOU think started this war? Who has the killer UU, Golden Age? Who's a Warmonger? GoW will get the credit, attention, blame, suspicion, dread. This will be seen as their Great Moment and we will (hopefully) be seen as just their pawns in the whole affair. Will anyone overlook GoW to focus on how strong we're getting? We get some jungle land, that's it. GoW gets their own iron, more horses, incense, gems, lots of land ... GoW becomes the feared nation. The other teams will no longer look at us with envy, there will be a new Power rising. We will ride it's coattails and prosper in silence.

Betrayal? It's an every day possibility and reality we MUST be ready for. I'd prefer to be make it as difficult as possible for GoW to betray us, and to do that, we have to get as close to them as possible.

--Togas

[civman2000]

I agree with Senor Winterius.

dejon: please explain exactly how GoW could backstab us using this alliance.

Daniel de la Civ

[History Guy]

China does not want to attack us.

They want us to shove our spears into Neu Demogyptica's rear (heavens!) so that they can ride down while the Arabs shift their direction to the south. They want to take Arabian lands, not Spanish lands. They want us to do their fighting for them.

This plan won't work out if we keep to our...pikes, and demand Chivalry and time.

Lord Toledo

[Hot Mustard]

Good morning all. Now that I've slept on it, things are a little clearer.

I think my initial dismay may have been due to seeing the Pirates of the Caribbean last night.

Arnelos was right to suspect that I missed that the treaty doesn't actually require anything of us immediately. Having read UnOrthOdOx's call for immediate attack by both of us, I smelled a big rat.

The backstab potential is simple - they get us feeling all comfortable with an alliance treaty, and then attack us, hoping that we started moving our units towards our ND front.

However, if we are going to proceed no differently after signing this treaty, then I have no argument. After reading the chat and new threads last night, it did not seem as though we were going to stick to our plan. People talked about coming up with new offensive plans, how and when to attack, etc.