The Civ Files: Vox Controli

[Zero]

Link to old PMs.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73584

[Zero]

To beta, from calc

Wondering if you will cooperate with us in researching mysticism. I understand this thing takes time with votes ans stuff but we are soon to finish iron working and we need a new direction. Depending on your response, our new research path may change or stay the same, so I hope to here from you soon. I wanna be able to do business with people of vox.

See ya~

Calc II

[BigFurryMonster]

Will they or will we research mysticism? Please clarify, and I will put up a general Trade thread tonight.

(edit: I put it up already. Please add the plan to it)

[Jon Shafer]

Check out my other thread for details on the deal I offered them this turn...

[Zero]

As always... Full disclosure on whats happening.

This time I had a chat. If you wanna read the full dialogue click on the link.

http://www.geocities.com/chocoboy21/a.htm

Alot of juicy information on the second half of dialogue about their ongoing showdown with the Gathering Storm, reminds me of our conflict between NDE alot.

[BigFurryMonster]

Good work. But ... who topped this?

[Zero]

From Beta to Me

Part 1 of 2

Greetings CalcII and Trip of Lux.

It has been awhile since we last talked. If I recall correctly, our last conversation centred around our mutual misunderstanding of the tech trading arrangement between our two nations. We of Vox clearly see it as a longer term arrangement, whereas you of Lux see it as a series of 'equal' trades, with the definition of equal to be worked out as trades proceed.

My intention is not to aggravate the debate, but to give you some idea of where we are coming from and propose a solution. I have attached two previous pieces of correspondence received from Lux. They might help explain our position somewhat.

Important Message from Lux Invicta
Greetings, BetaHound! I hope you got my message about our interest in establishing a possible tech agreement for the future. I have just spoke with Trip, and he seems to love the idea of helping each other in the tech race against other civilization. After all, what better than to have the two scientific civ in this game to stick together? The future looks bright to me, Lux and Vox, as their scientists cooperate to advance this world.

....

Which leads to this. Trip and I feel, according to our current knowledge of Voxian's understanding of the world, that as soon as their wiseman are finished with the production of this better alloy which you call iron, the best choice for next research topic would be Mysticism I am sure your wiseman considered this possibility. It is the next step up in the tree with ceremonial burial . To tell you the truth, our wiseman wants to learn this secret ourself, but the funding is limited that Mysticism doesn't come up as a priority for our nation. We need to learn secrets with more pressing needs, which we will share with you, if you only cooperate with us in researching this tech for us.

Last but not least, We would like to know just how much turn it will take for you to finish Iron working. Perhaps we can see who can finish faster and help out the other? It's just a thought looming on my mind, but I'd appreciate it if you reveal us this information, so that we can better decid and plan the tech trades, should you agree to take part in this wonderful co-operative research agreement.

Thanks!~
Calc

end of part1

Part 2 of 2

As you can see, we have alot to offer you. We have no desire to withhold any strategically valuable tech to you, since we feel very safe with the people of Vox. Our natural boundaries provide little to dispute over and our common heritage of being latin-decent as well as common love for science makes Vox one of our favorite. If we can cooperate in tech buddying, it would be to your best interest since we have so much to offer you as of now. Please take serious consideration in planning mysticism as your next technological project. I would also like to hear what you guys want to work out for us recieving mysticism as soon as you guys discover it. We are open to suggestions, and we are very lenient right now, so please take advantage and accept this proposal.

I wish to hear from you again.

Calc

To us - it is clear from these messages that the deal was intended to be long-term. We also undertook Mysticism somewhat at your direction, on the understanding of this longer term deal. Mysticism and the gold we have provided for pottery and 11 turns of iron-working is clearly not a fair deal. And we acknowledge that the earlier deal of gold for pottery and 11 turns of iron working was not fair either.

So - a few points to consider. The 11 turns of iron working should be even further discounted. It was clearly in your best interest as well to get Vox researching Mysticism as soon as possible. There was some benefit to us in getting it early - but to be honest - 11 turns was not a matter of life and death for Vox.

Also - we still want to pursue the longer term deal. But we have reached somewhat of an impasse. Mysticism will be completed in 5 turns.

You must admit that us turning Mysticism over to you in return for the techs provided earlier is not a fair deal. You say we agreed to it - in fact we did. I have re-read all the correspondence. BUT THAT AGREEMENT WAS PREDICATED UPON A LONGER TERM ARRANGEMENT AND THE NEXT TECH YOU RESEARCHED (AND IT IS OF SIGNIFICANCE THAT YOU NEVER REVEALED YOUR RESEARCH PATH TO US) BEING PROVIDED TO VOX.

So, my proposal is this. We will provide Mysticism in 5 turns as we said we would. Vox is a nation of its word. However, to balance the books, in return, you will provide us with Warrior Code ( a first tier tech), and 15 gold, and 1 gold per turn (total 35 gold).

We will then proceed as you have suggested - on a deal by deal basis. We are still very keen on maintaining positive and long-term relations with Lux. But we do need to find a way past this early hurdle our realationship faces.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerest regards, BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli

So basically the overall picture is We give them pottery, WC, partial IW, 15 gold and 1 gpt for Mysticism, 10 gold and 1gpt. If you play with algebra and cancel same stuff from both equation its simply =

Mysticism = Pottery, WC, 5 gold and partial IW.

This doesnt sound good to me. Unless its Mysticism = Pottery, WC. Then I'd compromise to that. Which means we still need to be compensated for partial IW part. Im gonna request them to think ahead on deducting some gold on their offer to make compensation for the partial IW.

[Zero]

Post waiting to be sent to Beta:
From calc to Beta

EDIT: PM has been scrapped and NOT sent.

[Jon Shafer]

Ludicrous.

If they're not willing to adhere to our agreement, then I have a thread ready for the PTW DG forum speaking of the honorable nature of Vox.

[BigFurryMonster]

I asked Beta (pure information-wise) for a proof that we promised him our next tech.

[BigFurryMonster]

Surprise. He does not have that proof. But he sent me this:

Hi BFM.

A first tier tech is one in the first row of the ancient era, or the left hand column in the F6 screen. The idea is that a first tier tech is one that many civs have already, and that many got from barbarian huts. In other words, despite the beaker cost, they are of lesser value.

The two relevant messages from Lux are the ones I sent. I agree that neither says 'we will give you our next tech'. But they clearly refer to the longer term deal, including having Lux tell us what WE should research next. We went along with the spirit and intent of the deal, on the assumption that you would research another tech and then we would trade.

There are two ways of looking at such an arrangement - the first is what Calc has called 'socialistic'. Under this arrangement all techs are shared with the other party as soon as they become available. And research paths are co-ordinated to make sure there is no duplication of effort. This is the arranagement we thought we had entered into. If you read the two messages received from Calc with this approach in mind - you will see where we were on a different page than you. Partcularly the note below where Calc says he wants to hear what we would like in return for mysticism.

The other way of looking at the arrangement is on a trade-by-trade basis. Which I now understand is the way Calc and Trip were looking at it. But under that arrangement, the first deal was not good for you, and the second - ie we turn over mysticism to even out that past deal - is definitely not good for us. Now - to even the books, I made a proposal - Warrior Code, a first tier tech, and 35 gold. (15 now, and 1gpt).

I trust this makes it clearer as to where we were and are coming from on this. Don't hesitate to contact me if you need further clarifiaction.

Cheers! ... Beta.

[BigFurryMonster]

Calc, I do not know if you sent your message or not.

If not, I'm planning to send this. Let me know what you think about it!

(yes - I am willing to give them Warrior Code if that helps)

Hi BH,

Thank you for your message. I can see now how we were on different pages in the big trade book. That is bad. Bad for you and bad for us, since it causes confusion and yields little trade.

You say that - evaluating trade by trade - the deal of giving IW to you was bad for us. You're right.

You also say that the deal of giving Myst to us is bad for you. Again, you're right.

But only if you look at each trade individually.

I feel that Vox and Lux need to be in a long-term trade relationship. Not a 'socialistic' one as you call it. But one in which both civs tell each other what they are researching (themselves) and then work out a deal. This can be done on a one-to-one basis, with gold to make up the difference between techs of different values.

In this light, let's evaluate the deals. First, let me stress that the Pottery deal is one that was conducted outside of the IW and Myst deals. We agreed to sell it to you for some gold, and I think that this was certainly not overpaid.

Then, the Myst for IW deal. We saved you 11 turns of research on IW, for the promise of getting Myst. We took a risk there. Although we feel that this is a good deal for us, we will keep you to the promise you made: to adhere to your part of the deal and send us the secret of Mysticism. In return, we will teach you the secret of Warrior Code and tell you what we are currently researching to pursue a continuation of our relationship. Your proposal of having us pay additional gold will not win support amongst our people, and I will therefore not waste time discussing it. I am hereby already compensating you more than a number of Lux citizens think is necessary.

My plans for the future are as follows: we tell each other what we are researching, and try to research different branches of the tech tree. Then, we trade techs on a 1-to-1 basis, with an amount of gold to balance the book. Let me know what you think about this and how we can come to a good formula for the amount of gold.

(edit) I also have another option for a trade for right now. We can get you in contact with the mighty Roleplay team, if you get us in contact with Gathering Storm. Let me know what you think about this one! (/edit)

I hope we can settle our differences, and look towards a bright Lux-Vox-future!

BFM

[Zero]

Sorry I didnt send my reply yet because Trip and I decided my reply was too soft compared to the stance we ant to take. I'll edit the post now so theres no confusion.

[BigFurryMonster]

OK - what do you think of my reply?

And (posted by me in the GS thread):

What about this?

We ask for Writing from RP so that we can trade contacts.

We then trade "Contact with RP" to Vox, for "Contact with GS" (if they agree).

This way, RP will end up with Contact with Vox, which they asked for.

At this time, the Contact with Vox is actually worth something - when Galleys start to roam the seas, we'll have nothing for it. AND - this will give us both Writing as an extra trade partner.

[BigFurryMonster]

Sent this:

Hi BH,

Thank you for your message. I can see now how we were on different pages in the big trade book. That is bad. Bad for you and bad for us, since it causes confusion and yields little trade.

You say that - evaluating trade by trade - the deal of giving IW to you was bad for us. You're right.

You also say that the deal of giving Myst to us is bad for you. Again, you're right.

But only if you look at each trade individually.

I feel that Vox and Lux need to be in a long-term trade relationship. Not a 'socialistic' one as you call it. But one in which both civs tell each other what they are researching (themselves) and then work out a deal. This can be done on a one-to-one basis, with gold to make up the difference between techs of different values.

In this light, let's evaluate the deals. First, let me stress that the Pottery deal is one that was conducted outside of the IW and Myst deals. We agreed to sell it to you for some gold, and I think that this was certainly not overpaid.

Then, the Myst for IW deal. We saved you 11 turns of research on IW, for the promise of getting Myst. We took a risk there. Although we feel that this is a good deal for us, we will keep you to the promise you made: to adhere to your part of the deal and send us the secret of Mysticism. In return, we will teach you the secret of Warrior Code and tell you what we are currently researching to pursue a continuation of our relationship. Your proposal of having us pay additional gold will not win support amongst our people, and I will therefore not waste time discussing it. I am hereby already compensating you more than a number of Lux citizens think is necessary.

My plans for the future are as follows: we tell each other what we are researching, and try to research different branches of the tech tree. Then, we trade techs on a 1-to-1 basis, with an amount of gold to balance the book. Let me know what you think about this and how we can come to a good formula for the amount of gold.

I also have another option for a trade for right now. We can get you in contact with the mighty Roleplay team, if you get us in contact with Gathering Storm. Let me know what you think about this one!

I hope we can settle our differences, and look towards a bright Lux-Vox-future!

BFM