Neu Demogyptica - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Now, a couple of brief comments to the last few posts:

@Leo - commercial and industrial traits have no cheaper buildings, unfortunately (only religious, scientific, and militaristic)

@Spiffor - we are not yet democracy, still republic (and to be honest, I do not see us revolting any time soon)

@Spiffor - it's true that we would have to ferry settlers over... but we have ferries enough and RRs to all ports, so the transport should not be such a problem. ND might be very interested in this, because if we simply ferry a settler or two over, found cities, and immediately gift them to ND, then they'd save 2 pop points per every city like that - and for ND, population is of much greater value than for us (if for nothing else, then because of the Pyramids). I believe they would value such an offer a lot. It would have a nice side effect - GS would be able to see the thing and would become even more worried about our ties with ND, which (see next post) I believe would be beneficial to us.

[vondrack]

And finally... after mulling the whole idea over for some time, I am leaning towards agreeing with all of you: if ND wants to trade, let's trade. They must best know, if it's a good idea or not.

If nobody minds (or founds out), cool, we get one - not exactly useless - tech pretty cheap (as some gold and worker jobs are peanuts for us) and we strenghten our bonds with ND.

If GoW or GS minds, cool, too. Not only we get a tech we sort of need or are going to need soon, but we even get ND drifting further apart from GoW/GS. GoW/GS may then be less hapy to trade techs to ND, which again benefits us - as ND will have to buy from us.

And if this goes as far as sparkling a military conflict - even better. As mentioned few posts above, I am more and more feeling that our industrial potential would be best used in a war being fought somewhere else. We are steamrolling over everybody else in terms of shield production, we are strong to everybody else, we are getting Replaceable Parts within 2t - what more one could ask for.

While world staying in peace is not bad for us, as we should be able to grow stronger and stronger, gaining more and more on others, there IS a threat - a partial or full tech embargo. ND is unable to research on their own, Vox are doing their best, but they still need like 20 turns to become really useful in researching. So, at this moment, it's us vs. GoW+GS, which is not exactly in our favour (especially as GS have a headstart of 2 ToE-spawned techs on us).

Within 2 turns, we will be able to upgrade our rifles to infantry - with tanks not even close to being available, any war would turn into a war of attrition. Which, again, we benefit most from (as "wasting" shields on the battlefield is less of a problem for us than it's for others, due to our strong economy and better developed infrastructure).

So - agreed, let's go ahead and get Sanitation from ND as soon as possible. Here is what I suggest we offer:

1) waive half of the gold payment for The Corporation (180g)

2) offer another ~180g in "weighed" worker jobs

Basically, 1 worker turn is worth 1g for us, as we have to pay 1g as his upkeep. However, it's worth 2g for ND, since their workers need twice as much time to finish a given task. So, let's take 1.5g as a fair value of a worker job and agree to do everything on the list Zayxus sent yesterday - that's nine hills, all of them to be moved to (1t), roaded (3t), mined (6t), and railroaded (6t). 9*(1+3+6+6)wt=144wt, 144wt*1.5=216g.

Considering that ND apparently did some of the terrain improvements we had been supposed to do under the previous contract (roading/irrigating the wheats near Esiba), I say we are generous and do all 9 hills. I would promise to send 3 more workers over to Bob (we have loads of them plus we are producing more in Invoice and Nou Camp)

3) offer founding one city with a settler of our own, which would be immediately gifted to ND - to make it even juicier for them, while not really throwing all that much in... we need to keep Farmerville population down anyway, so we are going to alternate between arty and settlers there...

This would bring the total value paid to ND for Sanitation to 180g in cash, 144wt (144g for us, 288g for them), and 1 settler. Should be very viable for them, while still a bargain for us (especially considering the strategic value of the tech - allows pop 12+ cities).

Am I too generous? Let's consider they are risking to alienate the Sanitation discoverer in order to deliver the tech to us (and to make some profit, too, of course...).

I would like to present the offer to Zayxus tomorrow, during the regular chat - so do not hesitate to comment.

[Kloreep]

Looks good.

Originally posted by vondrack
And finally... after mulling the whole idea over for some time, I am leaning towards agreeing with all of you: if ND wants to trade, let's trade. They must best know, if it's a good idea or not.

If nobody minds (or founds out), cool, we get one - not exactly useless - tech pretty cheap (as some gold and worker jobs are peanuts for us) and we strenghten our bonds with ND.

If GoW or GS minds, cool, too. Not only we get a tech we sort of need or are going to need soon, but we even get ND drifting further apart from GoW/GS. GoW/GS may then be less hapy to trade techs to ND, which again benefits us - as ND will have to buy from us.

Exactly. It's all ND's fault for breaking a NTA or whatever. They know their own business, and if there's a risk they're willing to take, so be it. If it damages their relations, all the better; they'll have to turn to us even more.

[vondrack]

Chat with ND (Darekill & Zayxus) last Thursday (Apr 29):

Session Start: Thu Apr 29 20:01:47 2004
Session Ident: #nd
* Now talking in #nd
Zayxus: hello!
vondrack: hello, everybody!
Zayxus: Great!
Darekill: Nein was ich meine ist, Willst du lieber weiterspielen oder brauchst du Abwechslung oder Unterstützung oder wie stehst du zu der Sache?
Darekill: Oh, hi vondrack
vondrack: ok, now gimme about 10 minutes - I am sure I will be able to translate that line...
vondrack: hi, Darekill!
vondrack: long time no chat
Zayxus: oh no...
Darekill: shall i translate my words?
vondrack: nah, I was just kidding
vondrack:
vondrack: if it was meant for me, it would have been in English
vondrack: it was in German, so it was not meant for me
Darekill: Hmm..
Zayxus: it was about the government of ND.
Darekill: But it's not exactly a secret.
vondrack: About changing your primary player?
Darekill: I'm the one who vounteered to take over the government.
vondrack: Zayxus mentioned something to that effect
vondrack: yes
vondrack: well, guys, as long as we are on good terms, I do not care which one of you plays the turns...
Darekill: maybe I'd be Mister bad guy Vondrack...
vondrack: could be, I know you warned me - that's why I say "as long..."
Darekill: not that I'm a warmonger but we are a little bit too close though your offers are.... well... tempting?
vondrack: too close - geographically or speaking of inter-team relations?
Darekill: the second.
vondrack: I see
Darekill: If we go on like this we can declare you the winner as well
Darekill: I'm not sure if this meets the intrests of ND
vondrack: could be true... on the other hand, if you turn against us now, I am less than sure you would eventually be able to declare ND the winner
Darekill: We are far from victory.
Darekill: But we don't want to risk a war with our friends; with none of them.
Darekill: If we feed you with luxurys and you feed us with techs int wont go unnoticed
vondrack: that's for sure
Darekill: and not all are very pleased about that.
vondrack: I can understand that... but I believe you are not in the game to make others very pleased about what you are doing, are you? (applies to ND/Lego as well, of course)
Darekill: That's the reason why i think we have to find out whom we make more and whom we make less pleased
vondrack: yes
vondrack: let's talk honestly
vondrack: if you remain friendly to us
Darekill: Well 'Im still in the opposition right now.
Darekill: I can talk strongly now.
Darekill: This may change again...
vondrack: may I do some lobbying in Lego's favour?
vondrack:
Darekill: It is your duty.
vondrack: ok
vondrack: I am sure I will just be saying things you are aware of
vondrack: but I am still going to state them
vondrack: so that we know where I am coming from
vondrack: as long as ND remains friendly and cooperative to us
vondrack: GS and GoW are going to have very hard time doing any harm to us or you
vondrack: I believe that anything but GS+GoW+ND against Lego would end up with whichever side Lego would be on winning
vondrack: everybody against Lego would most likely end up in Lego's neck being broken
vondrack: and the victorious allies competing for the winner title
vondrack: if there is peace, I am not 100% sure about what the result would be
vondrack: GS and GoW are quite capable of fast research
vondrack: we are not able to compete with their tandem, not in the long run
vondrack: and not only because of the 4t/tech limit
vondrack: so... let's say that if someone (you) wants to win
vondrack: it's important to take out Lego first
vondrack: you do that
vondrack: then what
vondrack: the way I see the situation, you would end up being the weakest of the victorious allies
vondrack: because of the enormous efforts needed to relocate your empire
vondrack: you pretty much had to start over after The Great War
vondrack: one quite likely outcome of a war everybody-vs.-Lego could be Lego dead or crippled
vondrack: and you becoming the next target
vondrack: because of being the weakest one
vondrack: perhaps not
vondrack: you probably know better than me
Darekill: your analysis is good except the war part. Because there is one thing I want to stress!
vondrack: yes?
Darekill: We will not declare war against a former ally.
Darekill: neither you nor GoW
Darekill: But against a former enemy???
Darekill: Who knows?
Darekill: So that was much more then I wanted to say.

At this moment, we went off-record with Darekill and I promised to remove the relevant part of the chat from the log, as it was rather personal and way more open than what a usual diplo chat would be. So, I will just briefly sum the things discussed off-record up – keep in mind these are my impressions only: ND seems to realize that supporting us as much as we would like to see (as in the research pact) means we/Lego win eventually. OTOH, supporting someone else does not mean they/ND win either. My understanding is that there is sort of an internal struggle going on inside their team, with those in favour of fine cooperation with us winning so far – but that may change. Darekill is quite likely the „opposition leader“, less convinced that sleeping in our bed is THE way to go – he seems to prefer keeping an overall balance of power among us, GoW, and GS.

Back to the „official“ chat:

vondrack: one thing I am not yet 100% sure about:
vondrack: do you see the situation as "ND is supporting Lego"?
vondrack: because we were honestly doing our best to offer mutually beneficial deals
Darekill: Yes and No.
Darekill: Yes because without our luxurys you would have problems.
Darekill: No, because without cheap techs we have problems
vondrack: good - so we are seeing it pretty much throughout the same glasses
vondrack: we help you, you help us
vondrack: if I understand you correctly
vondrack: you do not want to help us too much, right?
Darekill: That is true.
Darekill: + we do honour contracts.
vondrack: even if it means that you would receive less help from us, right?
Darekill: sure.
vondrack: no threatening here - hope it does not sound like that
vondrack: as I told Zayxus last time, we can live with that
vondrack: or at least we hope we can
vondrack: just that we would like to know how things are going to work
vondrack: we can live with selling only selected techs to you
vondrack: we would be happy to sell you everything we research
vondrack: just that we would prefer knowing what the deal is actually about
Darekill: To be true, Zayxus is still the chief of ND. I'm still trying to figure out how the details are.
vondrack: understood
Darekill: I was away quite a long time.
Darekill: So I need time to tell you things that are worked out.
vondrack: I am all ears
vondrack: frankly... I would love to hear your idea about our cooperation
vondrack: or trading
vondrack: or whatever you would like to call it
vondrack: shall I address the Sanitation trade idea? or is it too early?
Darekill: As I said, Zayxus is still in charge.
* Zayxus is still listening.
vondrack: I mean... does the offer still stand?
Zayxus: By the response in the forum it was approved.
vondrack: fine then - let me present our offer then
vondrack: in exchange for Sanitation, we would:
vondrack: 1) waive half of The Corporation payment (180g)
vondrack: 2) do all the worker jobs listed on Zayxus' list
vondrack: - that's nine hills, all of them road+mine+railroad
vondrack: that's 1t to get there, 3t to road, 6t to mine, 6t to rr = 16t per tile
vondrack: considering the worker upkeep, it's 9*16=144g for us and 9*16*2=288g for you
vondrack: let's take the average of that, 216g, as the value of those jobs
vondrack: and
vondrack: 3) we would send a settler to a place you would designate
vondrack: we would found a city there and immediately hand it over to you
vondrack: not sure if this can be expressed in gold, perhaps not
vondrack: it's sort of a bonus, saves you population points
vondrack: which we have more of to spend
vondrack: oh, one more thing - we would ferry over three more workers to speed the terrain improvements up
Zayxus: hm, where could ND set that settler? There is a desert north-east and a cap south-west...
vondrack: let me see the save
Zayxus: 2 citizen for city Sirtiago would be another offer for the settler.
vondrack: like - you would prefer getting two workers instead of the settler?
vondrack: we could do that, of course
Darekill: I'm sorry but I have to go.
vondrack: ok - take care
vondrack: will you be here next week?
Darekill: yes. I will
vondrack: ok
* Darekill has left #nd
Zayxus: in the given situation, yes, because harbors would be the only and more better solution for some cities.
Zayxus: I note your ideas.
vondrack: ok... giving you workers instead of the settler is fine
vondrack: just that you would probably have to capture them
vondrack: because we cannot trade them, having no city on your continent
Zayxus: could ND join settlers to own cities?
Zayxus: settler of ND to ND?+
vondrack: yes
vondrack: we did that few turns ago with our own settler (added to Tiberium)
Zayxus: in this case: one settler for our desert
vondrack: ok
Zayxus: a settler is more expensive?
vondrack: than two workers?
vondrack: well, yes and no
vondrack: it's 30 shields, while 2 workers are 2*10=20 shields
vondrack: but with cities usually generating 15+ shields per turn...
vondrack: it does not really make any difference
Zayxus: yes.
vondrack: so - if you join your settler to Sirtiago and we found a desert city for you, it would work
Zayxus: ND can produce some workers as citizens in the border cities for the center cities...
vondrack: PLUS - we could use that brief moment
vondrack: where we would have a city on Bob
vondrack: and trade you few more workers to be added to your cities
Zayxus: that city in the desert first would need lots of irrigation and railroads...
vondrack: we can do that pretty fast
vondrack: desert is easy, much easier than hills
Zayxus: right
vondrack: we are open to changing/adjust the price
vondrack: this is what we thought would be a fair price
Zayxus: For me it sounds fair. I would like to listen to the members of ND, too.
vondrack: sure, no problem
Zayxus: I would send a PM to you after one day.
vondrack: that would be great - I believe there is no hurry
vondrack: we do not need Sanitation RIGHT NOW
vondrack: we would be glad to get it within about 5 turns
vondrack: so if you need time to discuss the trade in your forum
vondrack: take your time
vondrack: no problem
Zayxus: this turn ND would pay 60 G this turn an then less each turn.
vondrack: you can stop paying until the deal is signed or rejected
vondrack: no problem
vondrack: btw - will it be possible to move our workers
Zayxus: It is still a forum-game, yes, I will not do the turn today, perhaps in 20 hours.
Zayxus: move?
vondrack: to the gold hill near Esiba (N-NW)?
vondrack: is there a railroad?
Zayxus: railroad is near
vondrack: it's one of the remaining tiles we are supposed to improve as part of our previous contract
vondrack: can you advise me on the best route?
vondrack: all three workers are now S of Daki
vondrack: I will have to move them NE-N to reach the railroad
vondrack: and then?
Zayxus: ..to Borcem-S
Zayxus: ..to Borcem-SE
vondrack: ah - so there is already a railroad, right? (I cannot see it yet)
Zayxus: my picture is too bad.
Zayxus: if Borcem-SW is a railroad, Borcem SE is connected to it, right?
Zayxus: ... by railway
vondrack: yes
vondrack: it's probably not necessary to decribe it that precisely - if there is a contiguous railroad from Daki-NE to Borcem-SE
vondrack: I will get there
vondrack: just make sure it's not blocked, please
Zayxus: Daki is connected to Borcem by Railway.
Zayxus: yes, not block it
vondrack: cool - that's what I needed to know
vondrack: so we make it to that gold hill in a single turn
vondrack: btw... my map shows the wheat tiles near Esiba as roaded/irrigated
vondrack: did you road/irrigate them?
vondrack: they were part of our contract duties...
Zayxus: yes, but the one SE of them is not yet
vondrack: so if you needed to road/irrigate them faster, we will need a replacement task to do for you
Zayxus: A temple is soon finished, and that wheat could be used then.
vondrack: ah, ok - so it's the one E-SE of Esiba, right?
vondrack: to be irrigated & railroaded, right?
Zayxus: yes. Esiba is growing very fast.
Zayxus: E-SE
vondrack: yup, ok
vondrack: and one more tile to improve - to make it fair
vondrack: what about the bonus grass SE?
vondrack: or SW-SW?
Zayxus: yes, that is possible , too
Zayxus: SE has a mine?
vondrack: I do not know - my map shows nothing on that tile
vondrack: but our map may be outdated
vondrack: it probably is outdated
vondrack: as I do not even see the railroad between Daki and Borcem
Zayxus: Even Mosul is connected to all cities by railway.
vondrack: great
Zayxus: Except Arnablanca behind the hills and the east coast, but that main towns are.
vondrack: very good news!
Zayxus: yes, for defense first, railroads were built
vondrack: we did the same
vondrack: connected all the cities first
vondrack: only then allowed the workers to focus on boosting the shield production
Zayxus: ah, the same
Zayxus: but... ND prefers growing first
vondrack: well, that's understandable
vondrack: well, then... anything else to talk about today?
* Zayxus thinks
Zayxus: Could ND start with Gold / turn for Refining Oil in 5 turns?
vondrack: you mean - if we are going to deliver the tech that fast?
vondrack: I do not think so
vondrack: 1 or 2 turns more
Zayxus: Perhaps this is in 1 week earliest.
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: we will be happy if we play 2 turns until next Thursday
vondrack: the game is so slow now
vondrack: we will be sending you The Corporation this turn
Zayxus: thank you.
vondrack: and hopefully start researching Refining this turn, too
vondrack: but that's not 100% certain
Zayxus: ND needs agreements on time
vondrack: yes, everybody needs that
Zayxus: to answer to offers soon.
vondrack: well - Zayxus, I will have to go
Zayxus: meet you next time?
vondrack: yes, next Thursday
vondrack: 20:00 CET
vondrack: see you then
vondrack: bye
Zayxus: bye
Session Close: Thu Apr 29 21:41:40 2004

Going to add my comments in the following post.

[vondrack]

First of all - apologies for posting a rather important chatlog so late. The log needed some editing because of the off-record part and we have had an extremely busy end of the business week here, with the country joining EU today (changing the base VAT rate at the same time).

The "off-record" part of the chat was very open, mostly on Darekill's part, as I didn't say all that much... I do not think I am at liberty to tell you everything I heard, so it must suffice to say my impression was we had very little to fear from ND in terms of true hostilities... OTOH, we'd be fools to hope for ND becoming Vox II for us. They do realize that of the remaining key players, their chances to win this game are lowest. Anything but a very, very balanced game dooms them. And also - if there is no more war, they are doomed as well.

So... if Darekill's fraction comes to power, we might see ND manoeuvring into more of an opportunist's position. Helping us only as much as to keep us and GoW+GS at about the same level (seen through the eyes of ND, of course). Zayxus, still the leader of ND in power, seems to represent a fraction that is more in favour of closer ties with us.

Conclusion: while I would consider it safe bet to rely on that ND will not openly turn against us (as in: we must first take down Lego at all costs - only then we will see what we can do...), it's quite unlikely that ND would make our life significantly easier by really "helping" us - they will prioritize their own interests above ours (which is perfectly ok, of course - we'd do the same).

One thing I have noticed - ND seems to believe that we are pretty much dependent on their luxuries. While their luxuries do help us maintain a general WLTKD, saving a shield or two otherwise wasted in most pop 12 cities... we are actually NOT too dependent on them - I briefly checked and all we need is a couple of cathedrals or colloseums - or a 10% luxury slider (and I am talking pre-Sistine). I suggest we focus on the happiness city improvements right after factories (and first five stock exchanges maybe), letting the luxury trades gradually fade off... simply to show them how "important" their luxuries actually are for us. They may get a clearer idea of what their negotiating position actually is.

The other thing I have realized very strongly - despite ND being aware of their disadvantaged situation at the moment, they still keep their faint hope of winning the game. Therefore, they will probably never go as far as doing things that really help us win - they will only do things that benefit them (which may directly or indirectly benefit us, too, though).

So... my point is: let's focus our help on Voxes, or at least emphasize it over the help to ND. After the unfortunate event with Replaceable Parts and after the chat with Darekill (though it's necessary to keep in mind that he's not yet the ND leader - and once he becomes one, IF he becomes one, he may change his stance a bit - which he expressly admitted), I don't really believe ND will be such a good, cooperative partner as we might have wished for...

...unlike Vox, whose goal is to help us win. So, I suggest we approach Vox again and rehash all the possibilities of our mutual cooperation. Ideally, we'd like to see them being able to research techs we lack (like Sanitation and the whole SciMet/AtTheo/Electronics/Radio branch) in ~8t/tech without losing too much money. Maybe if we fed them with pop points, they could get there faster - we should find out and if it's the case, we should simply keep pumping out workers, sending them over to Vox to be joined to their cities with no delay.

The thing with ND is that we have nothing to offer to them - we don't/can't offer them the victory, so they will always tend to compromise between being our friends (as being our enemies does not serve them well) and following their own interests (which are naturally mostly contrary to ours). Do not get me wrong here - the chat was everything but unfriendly... just that ND are no fools and realize that supporting Lego needs to have a limit, unless they consciously let/help us win.

One last note - according to Zayxus' PM today morning, the Sanitation deal was not ratified yet by ND - too few responses so far.

[vondrack]

Just to keep you updated: I have received a PM from Zayxus today, informing me about Darekill being elected the new leader of ND. Darekill is probably going to take playing the ND turns over now (910AD).

I would not say it's a good news - Zayxus was very much pro-Lego... Though how "bad" news it is remains to be seen... I will make sure to attend the chat on Thursday, as Darekill promised to be there.

[vondrack]

No good news today, I am sorry...

Session Start: Thu May 13 20:00:44 2004
Session Ident: #Neudem
* Now talking in #Neudem
Darekill: Hi.
vondrack: hello, guys
Zayxus: Hello!
vondrack: hi, Zayxus!
Zayxus: how are you?
vondrack: ah, quite ok today, thanks
vondrack: and you?
vondrack: thought you sort of retired...
Zayxus: fine, too.
Darekill: the gems are on the way.
vondrack: oh, thank you, that's good news
Darekill: You'll get them for another 20 turns.
vondrack: ok, great
Darekill: I think this is fair.
vondrack: yup - provided you mean that we get them for the two tech deals accomplished
Darekill: Yes that's what it is about.
vondrack: cool
Darekill: I felt that Zayxus gave you his word as representative for ND.
Darekill: So ND owes you this much.
vondrack: that's how I saw it, yes
vondrack: having this solved so nicely... what about other tech deals - ready to talk?
Darekill: I'm a man that is used to stand behind his words and I tell you again I'm not planing on beeing hostile to Legoland.
Darekill: But we will not trade.
vondrack: not trade at all?
Darekill: Well, I will bring every proposal to the parliament but I might not suport them.
vondrack: well, let's take it one by one...
vondrack: is Sanitation still available for trade?
Darekill: Sorry, but it is not.
vondrack: k
vondrack: next time - we would appreciate being informed, though
vondrack: we sent you our offer, Zayxus told us there were not enough responses
vondrack: and that was it
vondrack: now, next one
vondrack: Refining in 3 turns?
vondrack: counted from this turn
vondrack: which is 910AD
vondrack: you know the price... 15% + some luxuries
vondrack: we could add some worker jobs to our part of the deal
Darekill: Will not do.
vondrack: what would do?
Darekill: As I said I post your offer but we can not win if we trade with you,
vondrack: do you believe you can win if you do NOT trade with us?
Darekill: We talked about that.
Darekill: Yes. I think we can.
vondrack: see... there is something I haven't ventured into yet
vondrack: perhaps it's time to bring the issue up
vondrack: give me a second, I need to look something up
vondrack: Darekill, do you have an idea about what the shield production of GoW and GS is?
Darekill: no.
vondrack: let me tell you then
vondrack: one of them is 424spt, the other one is 378spt - yours seems to be 201spt
vondrack: as of 910AD
Darekill: Could be.
vondrack: over the last ~10 turns
vondrack: one of them added about +160spt, the other one added +119spt
vondrack: you seem to have added +49spt
vondrack: I understand you are maxxing out your growth
vondrack: which reflects upon your shield production
Darekill: Zayxus did that yes.
vondrack: but anyway...
vondrack: how would you rate your chances to win against one of these teams after they take us down?
Darekill: They could not take you down. Not so easy.
Darekill: If they did they would have to spend a lot for the goal.
vondrack: not sure about that
vondrack: the tanks are the issue
vondrack: at the moment
vondrack: we are missing sanitation
vondrack: which you, GoW, and GS have
vondrack: we are missing Scientific Method, which GS has
vondrack: we are missing Atomic Theory, which GS has
vondrack: we are missing Electronics, which GS has
vondrack: and there is a set minimum turn limit to research a tech
vondrack: so - I do not see us able to get to tanks quickly enough
vondrack: especially if you tech-embargo us
vondrack: what happens then...
vondrack: humans seldom pick wars of attrition
vondrack: it's usually one huge assault
vondrack: which either succeeds or fails
vondrack: if the tanks of GoW and GS succeed
vondrack: well - you know your chances
vondrack: if not...
vondrack: we still win
vondrack: see... what I am trying to point out is
vondrack: that even getting cheap techs from us is not really assuring our victory
vondrack: the gold we get
vondrack: the luxuries we get
vondrack: that's something we can easily do without
vondrack: it's the speed with which GoW and GS can get ahead in the tech race
vondrack: which is very dangerous
vondrack: they are two on one
vondrack: that's easy to win in civ
vondrack: now... if they don't get a technological lead
vondrack: they are not going to start a war
vondrack: if they are going to gain the lead
vondrack: there will hardly be any war of attrition you hope for
vondrack: plus... have you considered the "other" possibility of how to take Lego down?
vondrack: through strenghtening GoW and GS?
Darekill: Well Vondrak we can't suport you any further right now.
Darekill: not open.
vondrack: what's "any further"?
Darekill: And every techdeal is more or less open.
vondrack: like the Refining deal?
vondrack: I asked about the right price - you told me there was no trade possible
vondrack: how does that make the deal open?
Darekill: We have been watched closely by GOW and GS.
Darekill: They might not attack you with tanks....
vondrack: I understand that
Darekill: Well we could give you techs but it must go unknown to anyone.
Darekill: And that's damn risky.
Darekill: On the other hand.
Darekill: If we get to tanks in dealing with them and if they choose to attack you we would know probably early on.
vondrack: well, I should probably point one thing out
vondrack: I am much less talking about you trading techs to us
vondrack: and much more talking about you buying techs from us
vondrack: even if it's real cheap
vondrack: Sanitation is no big deal
vondrack: just forget it
vondrack: I am talking our techs you may need
vondrack: by giving (much) gold to GoW and GS
vondrack: you are making them less weak compared to us
vondrack: but stronger compared to you
vondrack: by giving us (little) gold
vondrack: you make us (very little?) stronger compared to all of you
vondrack: but you are growing stronger compared to GoW and GS
Darekill: If we buy your techs and give you Luxury do you think it'll go unnoticed?
Darekill: I'm mostely talking about the luxurys. not so much about money.
vondrack: let me ask something
vondrack: are you bullied into cutting your ties with us?
vondrack: like - "if you do not stop dealing with Lego, we do harm to you?"
Darekill: We aren not bullied directly. But I read between the lines.
vondrack: understood
vondrack: what about making it only some luxuries?
vondrack: say - something for our dyes
vondrack: (everybody does that)
vondrack: and one more for the techs?
vondrack: or maybe just the gold, if it makes your life easier...
Darekill: Luxury for Luxury can be arranged I think.
vondrack: good
Darekill: The other one is a hard bargain.
Darekill: Tech for gold is possible.
vondrack: right... so, let me ask again: what would be the right price for Refining?
vondrack: btw - the luxury for luxury already IS arranged through an official trade agreement (indefinite)
Darekill: so it continues.
Darekill: I'm not breaking treaties.
Darekill: We will find out what Refining will cost us for ourselves and tell you in about a few turns and then you can either beat the price or not.
vondrack: ok
vondrack: sorry - had to answer a phone call
vondrack: back now
vondrack: now... any interest in worker jobs?
vondrack: or shall we plan to withdraw Felix, Joe, and Luke after they finish the current assignments?
vondrack: which is that gold hill and two more flat tiles around the city
vondrack: Esiba?
vondrack: not sure about that...
Zayxus: between Esiba and Borcem?
vondrack: yes, probably
vondrack: the tiles we talked about last time
Darekill: That is another Problem. We still have a RoP with GOW.
Darekill: So they are able to spot your workers.
vondrack: I know
Darekill: They get curious what they are doing.
vondrack: ummm... is that not obvious?
vondrack: do they forget that you gained least out of the great war?
Darekill: That is what we tell them so they accept it.
vondrack: ok
vondrack: I would expect THEIR (GoW's) workers helping you...
Darekill: actually they do!
Darekill: They have a lot of workers in the north without them we wouldn't give our citys.
vondrack: ah, good!
vondrack: I am still feeling nervous about the shield/commerce figures, to be honest
vondrack: see, the easiest way to defeat Lego down is to tear yourself apart - and only then go for us...
vondrack: so, I would like to see you as strong as they are as soon as possible
vondrack: but that's not even remotely close, it seems
Darekill: well we are working on it.
vondrack: ok - back to our workers... home they go then?
vondrack: I am not pushing anything - just wanna know
Darekill: when they finished their job. Yes.
vondrack: k
Darekill: O.k. anything else?
vondrack: well, that's it, I guess...
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: at the same time
vondrack: no, I think we've covered anything
Darekill: fine I‘ll have some more units to move then.
vondrack: everything
vondrack: ok, talk to you next Thursday
vondrack: (?)
Darekill: So be it.
Zayxus: me, yes.
vondrack: ok, goodbye
vondrack: goodbye, Zayxus!
Darekill: bye.
Session Close: Thu May 13 20:54:28 2004

I did my best to shake Darekill's determination, but there was not much I could have done... ND decided that doing as little business with us as possible is in their best interest. Well, their choice. We'll see how it goes - perhaps we will at least be able to trade them techs for gold, if not luxuries (if you asked me - even giving them the techs for free would be sort of fine... whatever gold we can deny to GoW & GS is, well, golden...).

We get the gems for 20 more turns, which gives us plenty of time to prepare for the luxury deficit to eventually come. With Sistine coming online in 3t and a huge potential to build cathedrals and colloseums, we should be fine. Bye-bye WLTKDs, but that's not a big deal - will actually make planning easier.

More comments tomorrow (hopefully).

[Kloreep]

We talked about peace. You didn't want peace!

We talked about cooperation. You didn't want cooperation!

You want war! Well, you've got a war!

Err, yeah.

This situation is pretty much hopeless for us as things are right now. With GoW and GS combined, they've gotten past us. The best we can do is match them by shoring up, and possibly funding, Vox. But even if we match them, we will be far behind. And Vox is all we have left, it seems.

So... we do not have much chance of winning peacefully is my analysis. The triad over yonder ocean has made good use of the tech turn limit.

To return to above: as I said, even if we can pull Vox up, we can at best match GoW+GS. And that's not counting if ND starts researching. So, one possibility is to work from the other end, and pull others down. The best target for this is GoW. Unfortunately, "best target" doesn't mean much in the age of Infantry and rails. So, we'd need to rush for Marines. We can then target our opponent's research centers - GS's FP, which I believe we know the location of, GoW's FP in Yellowknife, Copernicus in Hurricane, Newton's in Tempest. We may want to add ND targets to these attacks if we can, and think we have a chance of hitting their FP. Imperial City for Leo's and Eye of the Storm for Hoover's would be good too.

I'm not sure if we can pull that off, though. Even if we get in with Marines, the lesson of Hot Enamel's donut creation will likely have everyone sprinkling a few Infantry in their core. So, one alternate is to just play catch-up throughout the industrial, then strike with nukes in the modern while the others are competing for the spaceship. With nukes, we could stand a good chance of eliminating our desired targets. Of course, same applies to us...

[ZargonX]

*sigh* What does ND hope to gain? 3rd place instead of 4th? We will fall behind in the tech race, that is obvious. We are going to have to pick our course with that in mind. Beeline for tanks? In the meantime, start beefing up military even more. GoW and GS may decide to strike us, but then again, they might not be able to stay so cozy forever. We're going to have to be ready to capitilize on whatever develops with the Triad over there. And if nothing develops, we'll MAKE something develop

[Kloreep]

There's no real way to beeline for Tanks in PTW, is the thing. Beelining for tanks is like "beelining" for the end of any era.

/me is beginning to appreciate why Motorized Transport no longer requires the bottom tech path in Conquests.

[redstar1]

Hmmm what about GS? Any idea of their military capacity?

[Spiffor]

It seems GoW + GS have decided to attack us before attacking ND, and ND shakes in its boots.

I wonder where's the rationale in their behaviour, I cannot understand where they see their shot at victory.

We don't need tanks. We should forget about them for now, and focus on warships and bombers. Unless we are going for an offensive war, cavalries+bombing units will be enough to rout enemy tanks, if we have enough of them. With cavalries+artilleries/bombers, we can easily hold off until modern age.

Vox can be useful in researching the lower path of the tech tree, for which we are less in a hurry. But for now, I think they should research hospitals, because it is our best shot at limiting the tech gap between the triad and us.

[Tiberius]

I agree with Spiffor. With loads of arties and cavalries we can hold on. The problem is not to lose the tech race well into the modern era, but this is too far away right now. Until then a lot of things could change. For example ND can change their mind, should they fear an invasion.

[Tiberius]

I don't think GS+GoW are trying to attack us in the near future. IMHO they are only trying to outresearch us and then cripple us in a big and fearce attack, should they have the opportunity to do so. I wouldn't fear an attack anytime soon. Howevere, after marines and tanks, and especially after MAs and bombers, it could happen.

[Kloreep]

We have a lot of Arty already. I don't think we need to worry about anyone deciding to land on a coast tile; we won't need to worry till Marines enable them to get a shot at our railroad network from turn 1 of the assualt.