Neu Demogyptica - correspondence & foreign affairs

[lmtoops]

So is GoW really upset about our relationship with ND OR are they just using that as an excuse to attack? I guess either answer could be true.

My opinion, GoW wants to keep ND weak so they can take them in the near future. If Legoland continues to help ND, then ND not stay weak for long, which does not help GoW. So GoW will attack sooner rather than later; either way the attack is coming.

If war is eminent, we may need to speed up some research (Combustion) and alter from our path (Replacement Parts). All this will be discussed in detail by the team.

Leo

[vondrack]

Originally posted by lmtoops
So is GoW really upset about our relationship with ND OR are they just using that as an excuse to attack? I guess either answer could be true.

I guess that what really made GoW think hard about the nature of our relationship with ND was when they spotted our workers on Bob last turn.

I believe that there is one more possibility - GoW is in fact blackmailing ND, trying to make them cut their ties with us, threatening with war if they keep cooperating. GoW undoubtedly realize that as long as we have one other (major) team on our side, we are in the driver's seat.

Originally posted by lmtoops
My opinion, GoW wants to keep ND weak so they can take them in the near future. If Legoland continues to help ND, then ND not stay weak for long, which does not help GoW. So GoW will attack sooner rather than later; either way the attack is coming.

Pretty much agreed here. Perhaps even more than keeping ND weak, GoW wants to somehow check us - they must feel that every turn we are left unchecked, we're widening the gap between us and the rest of the world (we need just 3-4 turns to complete our RR backbone, which will make any invasion of Legos an extremely bloody affair until marines - every turn is important).

Originally posted by lmtoops
If war is eminent, we may need to speed up some research (Combustion) and alter from our path (Replacement Parts). All this will be discussed in detail by the team.

The only really tricky part will be acquiring Replaceable Parts. We need Electricity first, which GS may refuse to trade to us. In the long run, they will probably do more harm to ourselves than to us (as they will have to do Ind on their own), but we would have to do Electricity ourselves, which might complicate things in the "main" part of the techtree (our beeline for Combustion).

I believe that for the moment, we shall wait for others. GS shall need Ind for factories (no factories = Hoover useless), so maybe they will contact us on their own, who knows. And if not, we can still try in a couple of turns...

[vondrack]

Regular Thursday chat with Zayxus - this time, it is worth reading, I'd say. Aside from working out a deal for The Corporation, we found out that ND shopped for Replaceable Parts elsewhere... I did my best to tell Zayxus we were not happy about it, while not sounding upset.

Session Start: Thu Apr 22 21:09:30 2004
Session Ident: Zayxus
Session Ident: Zayxus (~mail4mcmk@p5084AF02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
Zayxus: hello
vondrack: hi!
vondrack: Zayxus, what happened with the dyes I sent to you?
vondrack: I sent them accepted 1 turn earlier
vondrack: hoping we would avoid the "gap"
Zayxus: thank you very much, I got it. Played already the turn.
vondrack: but it seems you did not accept them
vondrack: only this turn
vondrack: have you had any turn WITHOUT our dyes?
Zayxus: Cannot remember that.
vondrack: nevermind then
vondrack: two of our workers will irrigate this turn
vondrack: the remaining one will road
Zayxus: I so them at Daki
vondrack: yep, finishing their assignments around Daki
vondrack: before moving on to Esibar
Zayxus: it is so surprising peaceful...
vondrack: yes...
vondrack: Zayxus, do you have Sanitation?
Zayxus: Sanitation for hospital? yes.
vondrack: is it available for trading? or is it GoW-exclusive?
Zayxus: I cannot remember for an trading stop about it.
Zayxus: thus it would be awailable.
vondrack: I mean - would you be allowed to trade it to us?
vondrack: I guess not...
vondrack: but I am just asking...
Zayxus: Usually such techs are not allowed to be dealed.
Zayxus: But I cannot remember about, if it is not allowed to deal it.
Zayxus: Probably, GOW would not like such a deal.
vondrack: not if it is done before the NDA expires
vondrack: I am basically asking about how long the NDA is
vondrack: IF there is an NDA set, that is...
vondrack: well, no big deal... we will probably trade for it anyway
vondrack: is Darekill going to take over?
Zayxus: The deals with GOW had no such NDA, as I remember, but sure GOW would not like it.
vondrack: understood
Zayxus: Darekill is probable still on travel until weekend. I don't know exactly.
vondrack: k
Zayxus: I could dare to send Legoland the tech Sanitation accepted in exchange for something, but I donnot know what happens in the public relations to GOW.
vondrack: nah, no need to go there
vondrack: I was just asking about Sanitation... if there was a clear NDA set, it would be ok to trade it to us once the NDA expires. If there is none, we just let it be - souring your relations with GoW is the last thing we need.
vondrack: so, just forget I asked about it
vondrack: Zayxus - are you going to be interested in prolonging the arrangement with our workers improving your terrain?
Zayxus: Yes, prolonging: there is a lot to do, at least for railways.
vondrack: will you put together a list of what you'd need from us?
vondrack: we do not need those three workers all that much, so we can use them to help you some more
Zayxus: all right, I will see. Hope to rmember that list then, too.
vondrack: k
vondrack: it would be best to designate an area that would be exclusively done by our workers - so that they do not block your workers and vice versa
Zayxus: yes, probably Borcem and Esiba
vondrack: k
Zayxus: Esiba just gets a mine on a hill, hope it was not Lego's job, but Esiba is growing fast.
vondrack: we were supposed to road/mined a gold hill N of a mountain near Esiba
vondrack: so if you've already done that, just give us a different tile to improve
Zayxus: all right, I noticed the list for 870AD.
vondrack: Zayxus, do you have any tech deals prearranged with other teams?
vondrack: we shall be able to deliver The Corporation & Replaceable Parts within about 4 turns, I believe
Zayxus: both?
vondrack: either both or any one of them you choose
vondrack: we are not going to push you to buy them both
vondrack: but they will be available for trade to you
vondrack: standard terms
Zayxus: Corporation would be fine, because ND expects the R.P. from another side in 2 turns.
vondrack: ah, ok
vondrack: GS?
vondrack: if you cannot tell, just say so
Zayxus: better not.
vondrack: k
vondrack: was it cheaper than from us?
Zayxus: No, not at all.
vondrack: so - a matter of strategic decision? not to look like too much in the Lego bed?
Zayxus: For R.P it was for polical reasons, too.
vondrack: understood
vondrack: well - as there seems to be very little to discuss today, what about going to bed then?
Zayxus: ND could start giving Gold for Tech C. in 2 turns, interested?
vondrack: no, that would be too early
vondrack: we need to finish R.P. first
vondrack: trading The Corporation to you before that would just make it easier for GoW to research it faster
vondrack: as I assume they are researching it right now
Zayxus: But ND could get the next deal offer soon, and ND could support the research of Legoland by this too.
vondrack: ?: But ND could get the next deal offer soon
vondrack: like you mean that someone else can trade it to you?
Zayxus: If one trade is finished, the next offer from other civs would be possible.
Zayxus: ND would like to support Legoland to support researching.
vondrack: that sounds good
vondrack: we can certainly use some more cash for our research
vondrack: let me see
Zayxus: yes?
vondrack: it's 860AD now, right?
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: would it be ok if we sent The Corporation in 880AD (so that you would get it in 890AD)?
Zayxus: this is 3 turns?
vondrack: for us, it's 2 turns - for you, you could say it's 3 turns, yes
Zayxus: how many turns is it until the next result of researching of Legoland?
vondrack: that's not 100% decided yet
vondrack: but either 2t or 3t
vondrack: depends on how much we invest into the research
Zayxus: divide the Amount of Gold by ND by that number of turns: that could be the Gold/turn by ND.
vondrack: well, that would not be necessary - we do have some cash we can use
vondrack: you would pay upon delivery only
vondrack: it's just that we sort of hoped you would buy R.P. from us, as you said nothing to indicate you would trade with someone else...
vondrack: and now you are getting it from somewhere else
vondrack: so we are not making any money out of it
vondrack: that complicates things a bit
Zayxus: ND would pay between 50 and 100 G/T for the next deal.
vondrack: next deal = The Corporation or next deal = Refining or Steel?
Zayxus: ...from 880AD, for Corporation; ND could not pay it all in one turn, anyway.
vondrack: ok, that would be no problem
vondrack: we would be happy to take a gpt deal
vondrack: btw, can you tell me what turn you are getting R.P.? not where from, just the date...
Zayxus: I'm not sure, perhaps in 880AD
vondrack: there is no date set?
Zayxus: it would be 880AD , if it is not 870AD. Depends on the timing of the other side of the deal.
vondrack: ok, so it's no later than in 880AD, right?
Zayxus: hope so. some deals are not written.
vondrack: k, understood
Zayxus: You would see it in the deal screen, right?
vondrack: so... what about this: we send you The Corporation in 880AD, you get it in 890AD, and you start paying 60gpt in 890AD - six installments total (15% out of 2400 is 360g). Would that work for you?
Zayxus: yes, that would work fine, but ND could start 880AD to pay.
Zayxus: also
vondrack: I would leave that up to you
Zayxus: all right.
vondrack: also... what about future tech deals?
vondrack: to be honest
Zayxus: yes?
vondrack: we sort of hoped you would buy all or almost all our techs - that was why the price (15% of the nominal research cost) suggested was so low
vondrack: now, if you buy only some of them and shop for others elsewhere
vondrack: it's a bit different business than what we have hoped for
vondrack: could we at least pre-arrange or pre-discuss deals so that we'd know what you'd be going to be interested in?
Zayxus: sorry, I did not see it that way up to now.
Zayxus: I did not know it that way.
vondrack: nope - we did not state it that way
vondrack: I am not blaming you in any way
vondrack: just trying to clarify things
vondrack: we can live with either way
vondrack: you can buy all our techs
vondrack: you can pick only some
vondrack: just that we'd like to know
Zayxus: All right, it is only important to know, how to pay for Legoland continuing.
vondrack: ?
vondrack: I am not sure I understand
Zayxus: ND could pay Gold / Turn all the time without a stop.
vondrack: that's not necessary at the moment
vondrack: we do have some gold to work with
vondrack: it's not a matter of that we would be unable to research or unable to research fast if you pick only some techs
vondrack: but it's a matter of an overall gold balance
vondrack: of how much we throw into the research
vondrack: we can research a bit faster (if there is more gold from you)
vondrack: and we can research a bit slower (if there is bit less gold from you - only some techs purchased)
vondrack: I am not pushing it either way
vondrack: I would just like to know what to expect
Zayxus: That is interesting. Perhaps from 880AD ND would spend the Gold for another subject like defense.
Zayxus: After Tech Repl.Parts ND is in the state to improve defense rapidly.
Zayxus: But it would be expensive.
vondrack: Not sure if I expressed myself clear enough... I hope you will keep buying techs from us. But you can either buy every single one ("lot of gold from you") or you can only buy some ("less gold from you")
vondrack: depending on what you choose
vondrack: we will need to adjust our research pace slightly
vondrack: nothing major, a turn here or there
vondrack: but certainly, if we are only able to sell every other tech to you, we will have to consider that
vondrack: and make sure we do not run on a deficit budget for too long
Zayxus: All right. For the next time that would be fine.
vondrack: ok, great
* Zayxus assumes, he was in a hurry to get Repl.Parts.
vondrack: I understand - R.P. is extremely important
vondrack: why do you think we made this detour for R.P. ourselves
vondrack: which tech you would prefer after The Corporation?
Zayxus: Oil or steal.
vondrack: well, yes, oil or steel, that for sure - but which one?
vondrack: I am not saying we would go for the one you prefer, but it would be fine to know
Zayxus: could be oil first.
vondrack: k
vondrack: I will keep that in mind
vondrack: frankly, I would also pick Refining
vondrack: it's an important tech, too
Zayxus: would be nice to know, where oil is.
vondrack: true
vondrack: alright... I guess that's it for today:
vondrack: we've worked out The Corporation deal
vondrack: you will prepare a list of what our workers could do for you
vondrack: and we will consider going for Refining once completing the R.P. research
vondrack: hoping you would buy Refining from us once it's discovered
vondrack: ok?
Zayxus: yes.
vondrack: fine
vondrack: so, then... good night!
* Zayxus wrote a notice.
vondrack: and see you next Thursday
Zayxus: yes, good night
vondrack: bye
Zayxus: bye
Session Close: Thu Apr 22 22:48:07 2004

[redstar1]

vondrack: well - as there seems to be very little to discuss today, what about going to bed then?

I thought we were happy to sell techs and sell the services of our workers but this is going a little too far surely.....

[vondrack]

[Spiffor]

I'd like to see an official statement from the ND team whether they accept to buy every single mandatory tech from us, or if they prefer to be window-shopping among all three main teams.

It would help us adjust our prices, but also our attitude toward them. It seems at least one other team had the same idea than us (buy ND's cooperation with techs), and it makes them technologically advanced. I mean, they have the sanitation that we don't, and they will have R.P. before us.

If ND has an opportunity to have such a double love affair, they'll take it without a doubt, as it favors them hugely. The best situation is that they have a single love affair (with us), but if they don't, we have to know exactly that they stop considering us as their unique tech partner.

[vondrack]

I believe we can take it for granted that ND prefers to have a 'looser' and more flexible relationship, at least as far as buying our techs is concerned. From one of my previous chats with Zayxus, I got the feeling that ND was under a pressure from GoW to not cooperate with us too much (to an extent of being a target of GoW's attack, if not complying). They even postponed agreeing to our research pact proposal in order to soothe GoW (I will have to dig that chat up - dunno if I posted it or not, but it seems not).

EDIT: it's the last but one chat - just scroll up a bit and there it is.

[lmtoops]

I think the chat is enough of an official statement.

I don't think this changes our overall policy toward ND. We still need to support them, because they could sway the balance of power on Bob. ND is our only chance at avoiding a World War where Legoland has no ally.

If we continously provide help to ND, then maybe then can get strong and challenge GoW for Bob supremecy. Also, this will help kep GS off of Bob.

If all 3 civs ally against us, our support of ND may(?) help us. Not sure about this.

[vondrack]

I have to admit this is quite a pleasant surprise:

Hello vondrack!

Some members of ND would welcome to deal Sanitation with Legoland, what would be the offer of Legoland?

[The forum of ND is still alive ]

Best Regards
Zayxus

As Diplomat of Neu Demogyptica

Now, it's obvious ND will make the original discoverer (GoW, most likely) upset by dealing Sanitation to us, no doubt about that... but if we actually delay the delivery by ~10 turns (we are not hard-pressed for hospitals yet), it may even go through largely unnoticed. And even if GoW gets upset, who cares... as long as ND sticks with us, we are fine - I am sometimes thinking that our huge industrial potential would be best used in a war - it would be there where it would shine best; but that's heresy for a builder, is it not?

What do we offer for Sanitation? All I can think of is gold (waiving gold payments for our techs) and worker jobs. Anyone having a better idea? Perhaps a settler or two (like we build a settler, found a city on Bob for ND, and immediately hand it over to them - we could also use that moment to trade them workers)?

[ZargonX]

If they're selling, I think we should buy Gold is probably what they'd be most intersted in, though some labor may tempt them as well...

[lmtoops]

Good News!!

Gold, workers, worker jobs, settlers....they all sound good to me. We could also rush build a city improvement (which is cheaper to us because of our traits) in the gifted city.

[Spiffor]

Gold and worker jobs should do the trick.

I think ND will prefer worker jobs over worker gifts, because one worker job is worth 6 worker gifts*

I don't think we should wait 10 turns. It is a long time, and ND may change its mind by then. Especially if they are further pushed by GoW to cooperate as little as possible with us. But indeed, we should ask them to absolutely make sure this trade won't hurt their diplomatic relationships.

I don't think we should found cities for them. It is a pain to bring settlers with boats, they'll found their cities faster than us. Even if we found cities for them, I don't think we should rush any building in there: it could be destroyed when the city changes hands, which will be a waste - and we pay exactly as much as them to rush a building (4 gold per shield).

*we are industrious under democracy, and employ national workers. If we give them workers, they'll become slaves employed by a non-industrious nation. Furthermore, if ND is under democracy, slaves do not benefit from the democracy bonus. The calculation is: 2x slower (non ind.) * 2x slower (slave) * 1.5x slower (no democracy bonus) = 6 times slower.

[lmtoops]

Very true Spiffor, just throwing out all possibilities.

As far as gifted workers, they are much slower but they continue to give for a lifetime. Of course, I agree that they should prefer worker jobs.

So basicly, I'm agreeing with you on all points, but continue to argue anyway.

[Kloreep]

I agree with Spiffor, let's offer them labor and gold. That should be enough. And trade as soon as the deal is signed, no reason to delay. They wouldn't have offered it if they wanted to wait 10 turns anyway.

[vondrack]

OK, I finally have some time to work on this. First, few more PMs that were exchanged between me & Zayxus:

This one was a follow-up to our chat last Thursday. I asked Zayxus what kind of terrain improvements they'd like us to do for them once we are done with the current contract. Here is Zayxus' response:

Hello vondrack!

1) Workers
The List of possible actions of Workers of Legoland:
1 Borcem: Hill: w
2 Borcem: Hill: nw
3 Borcem: Hill: n
4 Borcem: Hill: s-se
5 Essiba: Hill: n
6 Mavsu: Hill: e
7 Mavsu: Hill: nw-nw
8 Mavsu: Hill: n-nw
9 Mavsu: Hill: n-ne
Mines and Roads and Railways each.

Perhaps some are already done or in older list.

2) Technology
This turn you should get 60 G (sum 60 of 360) for Tech Corporation.

Best regards,
Zayxus
As Diplomat of Neu Demogyptica

I was not 100% sure whether he meant worker jobs available after we finish the last tile near Daki this turn or jobs available after we finish the whole contract few turns later (we still have a couple of tiles to do around Esiba) and responded to make sure there was no misunderstanding. Zayxus responded as follows:

Hello vondrack!

The List could be of what could be done after the older list. But if you like, you could mix the single tasks.

About the deal: We don't have to tell anyone, wether you researched the tech or got it elsewhere. There is no none -20turn-trade-agreement.

Best Regards
Zayxus