Neu Demogyptica - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by vondrack
What do you think about the idea of arranging a general tech-for-lux-and-gold pact with ND? We feed them with techs (conditions? rules?), they supply us with luxuries and gold.

Now that I know the geopolitical situation a bit better, I think it is a great idea. ND isn't going to be a threat anytime soon, so we can help them with good deals. Besides, if they need us to hope coming back to the game, it is unlikely they ever side against us when GS and GoW will declare war on us.

Making the pact permanent and systematic is the best way to reach this diplomatic goodwill. If they count on our goodwill for their long-term strategy (i.e, if we are the main factor in their scientific strategy), it is unlikely they ever accept to sacrifice a long term good asset for the short term spoils GS or GoW could offer them.

Since ND's situation should be radically different by the modern era, I suggest we make a parmanent science pact with them until both our Civs reach the modern era. This way, it opens to renegociation as the game's situation change.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Since ND's situation should be radically different by the modern era, I suggest we make a parmanent science pact with them until both our Civs reach the modern era. This way, it opens to renegociation as the game's situation change.

I find this point/idea very good. Suggesting a pact for the full length of the industrial age sounds very good. ND should be happy to have it, as they can research pretty much nothing on their own, being too slow. With our backing, their planning would have a much more solid base.

Now, how much do we ask for all those techs...? ND is apparently quite happy to pay 20t of ivory & 500g for Steam Power, which was 2880-20%=~2300g after we discovered and sent it to them. So, perhaps making it like "ND keeps Lego supplied with all its luxuries and pays 20% of the actual tech cost after Lego discovers it? Or, say, 15% of the nominal cost? Maybe 15% of the nominal beaker cost would work best... 20% of the cost of a fresh new tech (i.e. our exclusive) is 20% of (100%-10%) = 18%. A bit more than 15%, but we will hardly be the first ones to discover every single tech...

So, perhaps two options?

Common: Lego supplies ND with dyes, ND supplies Lego with ivory, silks, spices, and gems.

Option A: ND pays 20% of the tech beaker cost effective immediately after Lego discovers the said tech (or at the moment ND receives it? they may wish to delay getting a tech, in case they do not need it and wish to keep it as costly for GS/GoW as possible).

Option B: ND pays 15% of the nominal beaker cost for every tech received from us.

It goes without saying that this would only apply to techs Lego researches on its own, not to techs acquired through trading. I would suggest we limit the pact to the mandatory techs. I do not think we should rush to trade, say, Amphibious Warfare to them...

The more I am thinking about this, the more I like it... imagine we striked such a deal... first: we could stop worrying about luxuries for the whole of industrial era (plus, we'd enjoy WLTKDs all the time). We would have a sure buyer for every single tech we'd pick/research. We'd indirectly force GoW/GS to trade with us, because it would be cost uneffective for them to research techs already researched by us (as they would only be able to trade between themselves). Means we would have no tech embargo to fear.

Plus, we'd strengthen our ties with ND to such an extent, that we'd gradually become the last ones they'd look towards when searching for a target. And if we manage to keep the rest of the world divided, we win.

With the fast pace of the game I expect (4t techs all the way, especially if we secure extra funding from ND), ND would not be able to properly utilize the techs (lacking the shields to actually build improvements), never able to fully catch up with us (we would utilize them better because of our gigantic head-start and huge shield lead). They'd catch up with others, while helping us stay ahead...

[Spiffor]

I favor option B. It is cheaper for them, and more flexible for them. As you said, their lack of shileds will make almost sure they won't use these techs properly, so there is no reason to hold back. Besides, I'm more comfortable thinking they consider us as a necessity for a quick comeback. The easier we make it for them, the more interested in keeping us around they'll be.

It is also a good idea to have this science pact only concern mandatory techs. It will still be very useful to them, without giving them some strategic advantages we will suffer from (espionage and amphibious warfare).

I also suggest the pact mentions they cannot trade our techs with any other team. We don't want them to tech-whore, and get humongous amounts of cash doing so. If they tech-whore successfully, they may very well end up building their infrastructure much, much faster than we expect (and this would be bad for us)

[Kloreep]

Considering we'd be getting three luxes out of this deal, I think we can give them cheap option B.

[lmtoops]

I agree with Option B

[vondrack]

Yesterday's chat with Zayxus:

Session Start: Thu Apr 01 21:20:55 2004
Session Ident: Zayxus
vondrack: hello!
Zayxus: hello!
vondrack: ok, straight to the point:
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: the feedback in our forum
vondrack: regarding your MPP idea
vondrack: was pretty much along what I responded with
vondrack: NAPs MPPs and that sort of stuff is usually just words
vondrack: and seldom stop people/teams from acting in their best interest
vondrack: we (Lego) are a very good example
vondrack: since we basically broke a treaty with RP by siding with you and GoW
vondrack: but RP was an extremely difficult partner
vondrack: no good trades, strained relations etc.
vondrack: so we did not see it as a big problem to reason our way out of the treaty
vondrack: and follow our primary goals
vondrack: so...
vondrack: what we really value is deeds, not words
vondrack: I have come up with a pretty new idea in our forum
vondrack: and so far, the response was very positive
Zayxus: interesting
vondrack: 3 people supporting it
vondrack: nobody against
vondrack: I believe it's as good as "universally supported"
vondrack: here is what the idea is about:
vondrack: basically, you could call it "a general tech-for-lux deal for the duration of the industrial era"
vondrack: the basic points:
vondrack: 1) Lego provides dyes to ND
vondrack: 2) ND provides ivory, spices, gems, and silks to Lego
vondrack: 3) Lego provides ND with every mandatory tech researched for 15% of the nominal beaker cost
vondrack: there is a number of subtleties
vondrack: but this is the crux of the whole thing
vondrack: means that we trade you every tech we discover
vondrack: for 15% of what its costs in the editor is
vondrack: optional techs would not be subject to this arrangement - but that's not to say we would not trade them
vondrack: honestly - I do not expect us to do many optional techs in this era
Zayxus: right straight the line
vondrack: more or less, yes
vondrack: not sure how all this sounds to you, but from our PoV, it's probably more than an NAP or MPP
Zayxus: about sanitation, would that be important for pop over 12?
vondrack: yes, important
vondrack: but we hope to trade for it
vondrack: it's not decided yet, but we hope to get it through trade
Zayxus: ND already checks deals about it.
vondrack: we are currently doing Industrialization
vondrack: and plan to continue with The Corporation
vondrack: and then onwards through that part of the tech tree
vondrack: it's obvious you would still need to get some techs from other teams
vondrack: but we would guarantee that whatever WE discover, you get
Zayxus: About the Deal instead of a pact: that sounds adaquate.
Zayxus: For me, I would like such a deal.
vondrack: speaking of deal/NAP/MPP
vondrack: it's obvious that if we have a deal like that
vondrack: we would come to your aid if you were attacked
vondrack: since losing such a good partner would be a bad thing for us
Zayxus: I understand
vondrack: it's an implied "guarantee", nothing explicitely said/promised
vondrack: but I believe that implied guarantees work better than NAPs/MPPs
vondrack: so...
vondrack: if you can present this idea to your team and see what they think about it
vondrack: we would be happy to discuss and hopefully arrange such a "pact"
Zayxus: I would like to present it.
Zayxus: But our forum is just moved to another host.
vondrack: oops - is that a problem (the forum move)?
Zayxus: let us go on first...
vondrack: ok
vondrack: as for the "subtleties" I was mentioning...
vondrack: there would still be the issue of optional techs
vondrack: there would be the possibility of you researching optional techs and trading them to us
Zayxus: The last turns, ND did not research at all.
vondrack: that was reasonable
Zayxus: There was no sense in research.
vondrack: it's best for you to go full tax now
vondrack: yes
Zayxus: ND would like to support other in exchange for the researched tech.
vondrack: support other in exchange? not sure I understand...
vondrack: oh, I think I get it
vondrack: you would like to support someone else with gold/lux
vondrack: in exchange for getting the techs
Zayxus: yes.
vondrack: ok, I get it now
vondrack: that's basically what I offered, I think
vondrack: ...and the last thing would be
vondrack: the placement of your city which would be "across the sea"
vondrack: we have Crossing on our side
vondrack: you will undoubtedly have one of your cities on the other side
Zayxus: Legoland offers a city on the other side?
vondrack: no, that was not what I meant
vondrack: I meant:
vondrack: you are going to place a city of yours on "your" side of the "channel"
vondrack: on the coast between Bonigo and Daki (?)
vondrack: there are several possible locations
Zayxus: I'm opening a picture...
vondrack: we would be very pleased if we agreed on the location of that city
vondrack: ok, me too
vondrack: ok, look at those two Ansars
Zayxus: there is only a hill left to settle
vondrack: your city can be placed where the Northern Ansar is
vondrack: your city can be placed where the Southern Ansar is
vondrack: your city can be placed somewhere between them
vondrack: from our PoV, the preferred location would be S-S-S of Bonigo
vondrack: here is why:
vondrack: - in case you are attacked and need help QUICKLY
vondrack: you could gift the city to us
vondrack: and we could move a significant number of troops from Crossing to there
vondrack: in a single turn
vondrack: being able to immediately use the troops to counterattack
vondrack: as loading and unloading in a city does not consume movement points
vondrack: our transports will be able to move 6 tiles thanks to the Magellan's
vondrack: so we could keep about 4-5 of them in Crossing
vondrack: and in case of emergency, we would be able to rush troops to Bob in a single turn
vondrack: through these two cities
vondrack: - second
vondrack: I will be honest
vondrack: that location presents the least threat to ourselves
vondrack: we are talking good friends now
vondrack: but who knows what's going to happen 100 turns later
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: if you place your city "outside" of range
vondrack: it would certainly increase our feeling of "safety"
vondrack: I admit I have not evaluated the locations with respect to their terrain
vondrack: so the location I described may be an inferior one
vondrack: so... this is not a "request" or "condition" for our research pact
vondrack: rather something that would make us happy
Zayxus: the left points to settle are all the last places except for 1 or 2 in the east
vondrack: you mean you plan to settle this part as the last part of your half of Bob?
Zayxus: there is a settler free to be moved south next turn.
Zayxus: and could settle south-west in several turns
Zayxus: after a long way
vondrack: well, I am not saying we feel you SHOULD settle that part ASAP
vondrack: I am saying that ONCE you decide to settle it
vondrack: we would be happy if it was the place I described
Zayxus: - why not at the place of the Rider ?
vondrack: well
Zayxus: next to Bonigo
vondrack: you mean E-E-E-NE of Crossing?
Zayxus: can't see the city on my picture
vondrack: ah
vondrack: S-S-SW-SW-SW of Bonigo?
Zayxus: yes like s-sw-sw-sw
vondrack: that's a mountain...!?
Zayxus: you are rigth is is your choice, because my picture is not good enough
vondrack: know what? I will send you a picture and a detailed explanation
vondrack: of why we would prefer the city where I said
vondrack: it's not really part of the research/lux/gold deal
Zayxus: s-s-sw-sw-sw of Bonigo; ND would have to build a harbour anyway
vondrack: so you could discuss it completely separately
vondrack: harbour? well, yes, to allow the city to grow, of course
vondrack: the city will be a piece of **** either way (pardon the language)
vondrack: too many mountains there
vondrack: but it will be strategically important
Zayxus: next step would be to build a railway
Zayxus: to the north
vondrack: yes
vondrack: perhaps our workers could do that
vondrack: once they are done with their assignments
vondrack: around Bonigo, Daki, and that third city
Zayxus: if you like
vondrack: depends on how fast you want that city to be founded
vondrack: I do not think it's urgent
vondrack: but better not delay it for too long
Zayxus: there is a lot to build in ND about railways
vondrack: agreed
vondrack: we, too, have a lot to railroad
Zayxus: connection between capitol and forbidden Palace first
Zayxus: some cities need irrigation
Zayxus: still a lot of jungle to clear
Zayxus: and so on
vondrack: understood
Zayxus: up to now there are two topics:
Zayxus: tech-lux-deal
Zayxus: city and railway
vondrack: yep
vondrack: separate issues
Zayxus: thank you for the steam power
vondrack:
vondrack: you are welcome
Zayxus: ND has to hurry to connect the coal
vondrack: yup
vondrack: hmmm... come to think of it...
vondrack: we could provide you with coal for some time if you need
vondrack: we have an extra (connected) source
Zayxus: that would be fine, to start railways sooner
vondrack: yep
Zayxus: every rail gives ND one more gold
Zayxus: what would Legoland like to get for coal?
vondrack: nah, that would be for free
vondrack: we know you do have your own
vondrack: it would just be a matter of helping friends
Zayxus: Thank you.
vondrack: shall I send it next turn then?
Zayxus: Yes , please.
vondrack: ok, will do
vondrack: well - that's about all for today
vondrack: at least from my side
Zayxus: Right.
Zayxus: About that game Civ:
Zayxus: It is really interesting, how it came to such a sharing of tasks:
vondrack:
vondrack: yes
Zayxus: one civ concentrates on research, building universities...
Zayxus: the other is on money, provides the other with Gold
Zayxus: ... and another may be building forces
vondrack: oh, which one that would be?
Zayxus: ND has to do decisions from time to time in general.
vondrack: everybody has...
Zayxus: I do not know which civs concentrate on troops, really.
Zayxus: we all have to think about that topic
vondrack: I cannot really tell either... we have been strong vs. everyone for quite some time now
Zayxus: ND would like to upgrade defense, of cause.
vondrack: have you managed to arrange the deal with Vox? for Nationalism?
Zayxus: Checking key F8 I wonder about the reasons of changes.
Zayxus: yes the deal is in game on the way
vondrack: cool, glad to hear that
vondrack: I asked them to be easy
vondrack: I knew you were very keen on getting Nationalism
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: alright then
Zayxus: About the forum:
Zayxus: ND changes the host
Zayxus: For technical reasons of the forum
Zayxus: - host
Zayxus: Anyway, could you send a agreement?
Zayxus: I mean a collection of the ideas?
vondrack: yes, I can
vondrack: I will try to do so tomorrow
Zayxus: about lux-tech
vondrack: yup
Zayxus: does not hurry
vondrack: ok
Zayxus: after all I can post it at Apolyton
Zayxus: in the ND.forum there
vondrack: yep
Zayxus: that is my part
Zayxus: for today
vondrack: ok
vondrack: see you in a week then!
vondrack: 21:00 CET again?
Zayxus: hope so , too!
vondrack: ok, take care
vondrack: bye
Zayxus: you too
Zayxus: bye
Session Close: Thu Apr 01 22:18:20 2004

Aside from presenting our tech-for-lux-and-gold (T4L&G ) pact and touching the issue of their city facing Crossing over the channel, there was only one thing I sort of improvised. I promised Zayxus we would provide them with coal. Sorry for not consulting this, but I thought it was no big deal - they do have their own source, so it's just a matter of few more turns before they get their own supplies, and we have an extra source we do not need at the moment.

A gesture of good will that costs us nothing...

[Spiffor]

I think it was a good idea. They will connect the coal source anyway (because they don't want to be mortally dependent of our coal when they can easily rely on theirs), and it's a gesture of goodwill

Also, it is good to see the idea of the science pact is welcome, although Zaxyus will clearly want to think about it with his teammates. I suppose they'll guess our intentions to make them polite and dependent to us, but I think they'll accept it without hesitating: they are clearly fearing for their survival, and I suppose they'll accept pretty much any hand that feeds them.

[Kloreep]

I'm okay with gifting it to them while they connect their own source.

Zayxus: connection between capitol and forbidden Palace first

A slip, or misinformation? Or even neither?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
A slip, or misinformation? Or even neither?

Not-so-secret information, I would say. I recall Zayxus mentioning they'd have their FP finished "soon" quite a long time ago.

[vondrack]

BTW... am I just ignorant, or is Zayxus wrong about railroads bringing more commerce in? I thought only roads did... no other terrain improvement increases the commerce production, right?

[redstar1]

I thought they gave +1 bonus to everything......

[Jon Shafer]

RRs only increase food and shields.

[vondrack]

RRs only increase whatever it is that was already increased by irrigation or mining. Mined tiles get +1 shield, irrigated tiles get +1 food (just checked that ingame).

So... Trip... are you with us now? Advisory post?

Just kidding - glad to see you still watching our forum. How's writing the History of PtWDG going?

[vondrack]

As per Zayxus' request, I have emailed him with the following summaries today:

Hi, Zayxus!

Sorry for the delay. Various stuff has kept me busy until now. Poly is having hiccups right now, so I am going to sum our Thursday chat up in this email. First, the idea of a research/luxury pact in points:

a) Lego would trade dyes to ND
b) ND would trade ivory, spices, silks, and gems to Lego
c) Lego would trade every mandatory industrial tech discovered through research to ND for 15% of its nominal beaker cost in gold
d) the duration of the pact would be the whole of industrial era

ad a+b)
~~~~~~
This is very simple - we share our luxuries for the whole of industrial era. More or less, it's a simple 1-for-1 lux trade, with the remaining 3 luxuries on your side being part of the "payment" for the techs.

ad c)
~~~~
The pact would apply to all MANDATORY INDUSTRIAL techs RESEARCHED by Lego. This is not to say we would never trade optional techs – just that those would not be part of this deal and would be negotiated on a case-by-case basis. Techs that Lego might gain through trading would not be covered by the pact.

You would be free to ask for a tech to be delivered pretty much any time, starting from the turn we discover it (though we'd appreciate, if you asked only after you had some use for it, so that the tech price would not go down prematurely. In return, we would ask 15% of its nominal beaker costs (plus the ongoing luxury supplies) as found in the editor. As an example: Steam Power would have been 15% of 2880 beakers = 432g.

The pact would not cover techs researched by ND (so it is not about sharing techs MUTUALLY) - Lego would be happy to trade for techs you might research on your own, paying (most probably) with gold, but you'd never be obliged to trade us techs you would have researched.

ad d)
~~~~
The pact would expire with both teams entering the modern era. This is not to say we will not be interested in prolonging the pact then, but modern era is quite far in the future and it's sort of difficult to estimate what the situation is going to be that many turns later from now. We would prefer renegotiating the pact then. One of the issues to precise would be how to handle the luxury deals going on at the moment the pact would expire. Perhaps we could agree on a certain amount of gold per every turn of a luxury going "beyond" the duration of our pact, payable upon the expiration of our pact?


That's just about it. It's a rather fresh idea at this moment (though it's supported pretty much universally in Legoland) and we are open to discuss everything you might see as a problem. We believe a pact like this would be more valuable than an MPP, because you would have a good reason to come to our aid (as we'd be your main source of reasonably priced techs) and we would have a very good reason to come to your aid, should the need arise (as you would be our major luxury supplier and a "great" customer). This, we believe, would create a bond going far beyond any MPPs we could agree on.

I am going to sum the city location issue in a separate email.

vondrack,
on behalf of Legoland

Now, the other issue I touched last Thursday - the location of your coastal city that is to be founded somewhere between Bonigo and Daki.

To make it easier to describe/understand, I am attaching a picture. It's obvious there are 6 different locations a city can be placed in. I'll now try to explain what our preferences regarding this city are. Mind you, we are not asking, nor requesting, nor demanding anything - this is not even related to the "research pact" in any way. This is mostly to explain our concerns regarding the area - if you eventually decide to settle in a location not preferred by us, we are going to respect that, of course.

Several factors come into play here:

A. ND's defenses against Legoland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Very little difference between the locations. Once Legoland galleons are upgraded to Transports (movement: 5+1 because of the Magellan's), all of the locations will be within a single-turn range of transports anchored in Crossing. Means that, purely theoretically (we do NOT plan anything like that!), loading few transports with marines that would take the city by a surprise (read: backstab) attack, we'd be able to move more transports loaded with fast attackers into the city, unload them and immediately use them to attack Bonigo, Daki, or another city in the area connected via a railroad (as un/loading in a city consumes no movement points).

Prior to Transports, locations denoted with "7" would be safe from this kind of an attack.

B. ND's defenses against other teams
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The manoeuvre described in the previous paragraph may, however, be beneficial to ND, if ND comes under attack from GoW or GS. On the very turn you would come under attack, you could gift the city & RoP to us, so that we could, on our turn, use Transports anchored in Crossing to ferry large numbers of our troops to that city, unload them losing no movement points - and immediately deploy or counterattack with them wherever needed.

Prior to Transports, this would only be possible through the cities denoted "5" & "6", starting with Transports, all locations would allow this. There is, however, one prerequisite - the city would have to be connected to your railroad network.

C. Legoland's defense against ND
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The same surprise seaborne attack described in the first paragraph may be carried out by ND against Legoland (still speaking theoretical only here). Transports loaded with marines, sailing off from locations "5" or "6", would be able to attack and possible take the city of Crossing in a single turn, allowing more transports loaded with fast attackers to be ferried, unloaded in Crossing, and immediately used to attack Zargonia or Logville.

Prior to Transports, only the location "5" would allow such an attack. Once Transports come into play, the location "6" would allow that, too. With the discovery of Nuclear Power, all locations will allow that.

D. Economics
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ignoring the strategic use of a city placed in one of the locations in question, there is the "quality" of the surrounding terrain to be considered:

"5" - fish and 2 hills in the outer radius, otherwise only mountains
(4) and water (13)

"6" - 5 hills in the inner radius, 3 plains and 2 more hills in the
outer radius; the rest is mountains (4) and water (6)

"7A" - 2 hills in the inner radius, desert and 4 more hills in the
outer radius, otherwise only mountains (10) and water (3)

"7B" - 5 hills in the inner radius, 2 plains, desert, and 2 more hills
in the outer radius, the rest is mountains (7) and water (3)

"7C" - 4 hills and 3 plains in the inner radius, 2 more plains and 3
more hills in the outer radius; the rest is 1 mountain, Daki,
and 6 water tiles

"7D" - 2 hills and 2 plains in the inner radius, 2 more hills and 2
more plains in the outer radius; the rest is 11 water tiles and
Daki

Now, all this said - Lego would very much prefer that city of yours to be placed in one of the locations denoted with "7". We would feel very safe then and would greatly appreciate that as a gesture of good will and friendship. At the same time, such a city would very soon (once we have Transports available) allow us to immediately come to your aid in case you needed us to. From the economic PoV, we however do admit that some of the "7"-positions may be economically inferior and partially overlapping with Daki.

"7B" would probably be the best "7"-location - working irrigated and railroaded plains N and N-NE of Daki, the city would be able to work up to 4 mined hills (plus the irrigated/railroaded desert and - with a harbour - up to 3 coastal tiles), getting to a pop 10 and a pretty decent shield output.

If you consider placing your city to one of the locations preferred by us, I'm sure our workers would be happy to help you with improving the terrain around it - perhaps to an extent of doing ALL the terrain improvements needed by such a city.

And once again - this is only a matter of preference, not a matter of life and death. We will be able to live with "5" or "6", too - even if any one of the "7"s would make us much happier.

Best regards,
vondrack
on behalf of Legoland

And here is the picture I attached:

[vondrack]

This time, you better read the chat for yourself... it is worth reading it, I'd say.

Session Start: Thu Apr 08 21:32:24 2004
Session Ident: Zayxus
vondrack: hello!
Zayxus: hello!
vondrack: so... anything new?
vondrack: Zayxus - feel free to finish your other chat
vondrack: we can talk once you are ready, ok?
Zayxus: when would be the next deal?
vondrack: next tech?
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: Industrialization
Zayxus: ND needs to spare Gold, much much for witch turn would that be?
vondrack: we will be able to deliver Ind starting this turn (we are going to discover it this coming turn)
* Zayxus is in 3 chats in the moment
vondrack:
vondrack: no problem - finish your other two chats
vondrack: and let me know
vondrack: I have some stuff to do while you finish your chats
Zayxus: Today darekill is with MZ, and it is your time now.
vondrack: yay, Darekill online?
vondrack: perhaps we can meet together after Darekill finishes his chat with MZ?
Zayxus: yes, for this chat, very important diplomatic contsnts
vondrack: contsnts?
Zayxus: ok see you in 15 minutes again?
vondrack: ok, 15 minutes
Zayxus: it is too much at MZ-channel...
vondrack: no problem
Zayxus: see you..
Zayxus: .
vondrack: yep?
vondrack: sorry, overheard your dot
Zayxus: tested the connection
vondrack: still talking to MZ?
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: k, np
Zayxus: but silence at the moment
vondrack: LoL - someone pondering about a difficult decision?
Zayxus: no, long sentences
vondrack: ah
Zayxus: About our deal: Could ND pay in several turns for the next tech?
vondrack: I believe that would be no problem
Zayxus: What about 100 G / turn ?
vondrack: that would work, I believe
Zayxus: do we set up a contract?
vondrack: you mean an Industrialization-specific contract?
Zayxus: moment.
vondrack: or the "pact"?
Zayxus: that tech only, our last contract was about Steampower, is this correct?
vondrack: well, yes... but to be honest, we would very much prefer to cover Ind with the general pact rather than with a separate deal
Zayxus: That is good, too.
Zayxus: vondrack, the situation between the civs is critical. ND is fighting on a level of diplomacy.
vondrack: between you and GoW?
Zayxus: between all big civs
vondrack: this sounds a bit mysterious to me...
Zayxus: For the matter of peace, and I mean a peace in diplomacy, ND has to search for an adequate way.
vondrack: I am not sure I understand
Zayxus: The chat with MZ is a fight.
vondrack: oh... he's always like that
vondrack: brings in the fond memories of Aggie...
Zayxus: For the peace, it might be better a way of deals step by step.
Zayxus: Thus I suggest, we make a contract about the tech ind. first.
vondrack: Frankly, I do not think I am authorized to strike a separate deal on Ind - I will have to consult with the team
Zayxus: ND wants to build, but our neighbour wants to fight.
vondrack: hm, they want to fight Lego?
Zayxus: Or ND, it depends, how strong ND would reveal a pact with Legoland.
Zayxus: But me and Darekill are not so keen on a war of the world.
vondrack: wel, that's understandable - you've got the least to gain in a war like that
vondrack: and we've got most to lose in a war like that
Zayxus: ND and Legoland prepared ideas to defend, but we are rather near to that, it seems. GOW wants to fight.
Zayxus: Fight in the sense of winning the game.
Zayxus: This game is not decided yet.
vondrack: true
Zayxus: If it was decided, we could stop it.
Zayxus: Every nation seems to be building units, still.
vondrack: could be - I know we still are building a unit here and there
vondrack: though most of our shields now go to infra
Zayxus: It is a question, not if, but when these forces come into action, but I hope not.
vondrack: agreed
vondrack: there will be at least one more big war
Zayxus: GOW knows by in-game-infos about facts
vondrack: ?
Zayxus: the art of all is the diplomacy
vondrack: like us helping you out with terrain improvements? and trading techs?
Zayxus: quite open is this improving terrain, yes.
vondrack: yep - their riders spotted our workers this turn
vondrack: I actually thought the riders were your ansars - all the time
vondrack: silly me
vondrack: only realized they were riders this turn
vondrack: seeing a real ansar of yours
Zayxus: state of research by deal screen
Zayxus: luxury is quite secret, except , if ND has no left to deal
vondrack: hmmm... GoW fears a strong Lego+ND alliance, right?
Zayxus: More easily, GOW fears not to win.
vondrack: well, yes...
Zayxus: All we need: that is a balance.
vondrack: honestly - there is only so much balance that can be achieved in this world
Zayxus: important is the impression to all involved, to be at a chance to win
Zayxus: the balance is in our mind
vondrack: I see
vondrack: that's true
vondrack: well, understanding your situation a bit better now...
vondrack: what is the reason for asking a separate Ind deal?
vondrack: I mean
Zayxus: if it is obvisiously to GOW, if the balance is not given - at this moment
Zayxus: yes?
vondrack: we can certainly make our pact secret
Zayxus: the best secret is: no written pact.
vondrack: I think it does not matter too much to us whether a pact is written or not
vondrack: as I said - pacts and treaties are only good to be broken by either party
Zayxus: yes, the kind of doing it counts.
vondrack: when they are no longer beneficial to both parties
Zayxus: MZ demands the next city.
vondrack: which one is that?
vondrack: Stonedina? Mavdad?
Zayxus: Mavdad is wanted
vondrack: I see
vondrack: give me a sec - I will open the save
* Zayxus waits
vondrack: hmmmmm
vondrack: honestly
vondrack: they are not really acting like a considerate ally of yours
Zayxus: why?
vondrack: can they see what you have to work with?
vondrack: a bunch of newly found cities
vondrack: your old core partially gone
vondrack: while they are happily nurturing their lands
vondrack: oh, well
Zayxus: yes?
vondrack: have you got Nationalism from Vox yet?
Zayxus: Yes, ND did upgrade some units already
vondrack: cool! Anagramaskus is so vulnerable...
vondrack: and your capital...
vondrack: you paid dearly for your victory
Zayxus: ND can only defend either city with effect.
Zayxus: Anagramaskus has to be blocked by workers, we thought
Zayxus: that are some workers lost on the long time
vondrack: I see
vondrack: well, I can see why you are so keen on maintaining peace
Zayxus: of cause, that is the reason by geographics
vondrack: let's get back to Industrialization:
vondrack: do you need it at the moment?
vondrack: I mean - would you build factories?
Zayxus: yes, ND would build factories, after culture, instead of units.
vondrack: ok, let me check the current lux deals we have
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: gems till 890AD (Theory of Gravity + worker jobs deal)
vondrack: silks till 1020AD (Theory of Gravity + worker jobs deal)
vondrack: spices for dyes - ongoing
vondrack: ivory till about 990AD (Steam Power deal)
vondrack: so... seems like the lux part is good for a number of turns
vondrack: all 4 covered at least until 890AD, which is 10+ turns
vondrack: I guess trading you Ind for gold without covering it with the pact would be doable
vondrack: since there are no more luxuries you could trade to us anyway
vondrack: I still need to bring this back to my team
vondrack: but I hope there would be no problem
Zayxus: this is fine so far.
vondrack: after all, it is the fact that we do an ongoing business together which matters
Zayxus: yes.
vondrack: the whole pact is more of a guideline, so that we do not have to handle every deal separately
vondrack: and it is also an expression of our long-term intentions
vondrack: as even if we had the pact signed, we would not be getting anything above the gold for Ind
Zayxus: it is less easear to keep peace as to prepare a war of defense
vondrack: alright, a totally different question:
vondrack: do you consider researching something yourselves?
Zayxus: I have to check...
Zayxus: something, which is left:
Zayxus: Espionage, in 40 turns with one scientist
vondrack: nah... you better make that scientist a labourer
vondrack: 40 turns is way too long
vondrack: even for Espionage
Zayxus: if civ else researches it, ... ND does not spent Gold in own research yet.
vondrack: what's your maximum science output that is still not pulling you down to red numbers?
Zayxus: 60 % is in green numbers
vondrack: and that generates how much research (in beakers)?
vondrack: I am trying to figure out whether you can actually research something reasonably fast
Zayxus: I do not know in beakers, there is only payment in Gold
vondrack: F1, orange section (top middle of the screen), "Science"
vondrack: there will be a negative number before that label
Zayxus: yes, that is in Gold
vondrack: that's how many beakers you generate at that rate
vondrack: yes, 1 beaker is 1 gold for this purpose
Zayxus: ND cannot go to that, because ND has to pay to deals in the moment
vondrack: well, yes... but if, for example, Lego waived some or all payments for techs delivered to you, it could be different
vondrack: well, I am not going to push it
Zayxus: ND could spent 100 Gold / turn for another research
vondrack: hmmmmm
Zayxus: in the moment
Zayxus: At 100% ND would loose aboout 200 Gold/T
vondrack: I will keep that in mind
vondrack: means that with a modest extra funding
vondrack: you could do techs in about 10-15 turns
Zayxus: correct
vondrack: as techs are usually around 2500-3000 beakers now
vondrack: that's not so bad
Zayxus: Really amasing after that long war.
vondrack: yup
vondrack: ok, nevermind... I may revisit the idea again later on
vondrack: but right now, it does not seem very feasible
vondrack: btw... what the hell are those two riders doing there? (between Bonigo & Daki)
Zayxus: these Riders were out there by MZ after the war and after Aggie of GOW went
Zayxus: as guards by GOW
vondrack: guards?
Zayxus: I did not dare to ask MZ to remove them
vondrack: well, do not ask him to remove them... "allow them to leave"
Zayxus: The settler is now near the place and one Rider may be moving away after that
vondrack: I see
vondrack: where is the settler going to?
Zayxus: if ND even settles at that cap, the other would leave...
Zayxus: the next settler is at the place you recommended
vondrack: 7B?
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: cool
vondrack: that's great
Zayxus: where the Ansar is
Zayxus: right?
vondrack: no, I do not think so - the Ansar is at "6", I believe
vondrack: 7B is NE of him
Zayxus: right, just found the picture
vondrack: I will have to think up a plan to get to Replaceable Parts ASAP
vondrack: we will really need to keep a couple of transports ready in Crossing
vondrack: so that we can, if you get under attack, rush units to your aid quickly
Zayxus: (replacable parts means better defense)
vondrack: true - infantry is good, too
vondrack: oh, silly me - transports come with combustion, not repl parts
Zayxus: yes, these transports would be adequate
Zayxus: galleons then
vondrack: which is better, however, as we intend to research along the Ind-Corporation-Refining/Steel-Combustion line
vondrack: not sure about making a detour for repl parts
vondrack: but it may be needed
Zayxus: finally we would have to research nearly everything
vondrack: true
Zayxus: what is the use of flight?
vondrack: bombers & fighters
vondrack: can be powerful, but you need large numbers of them
Zayxus: I assume, bombers are the compensation to railroads?
vondrack: if you mean that you use bombers to destroy railroads - then yes
Zayxus: yes, I would like to play more civ, to check it...
vondrack: well... the situation seems to be quite complicated...
vondrack: but for the moment
vondrack: there is only so much we can do:
vondrack: I am going to send Ind as accepted to you this coming turn
vondrack: the price is 432g
vondrack: payable in several installments
vondrack: it's up to you to decide how you do it
vondrack: 100+100+100+100+32 would be ok
vondrack: 80+80+80+80+80+32 would be ok, too
Zayxus: I'll check it next turn, perhaps ND can pay it at once.
vondrack: no need, Zayxus
vondrack: we have a reasonable cash reserve
Zayxus: Luckily nobody can see the flow of money in this game
vondrack: yes
vondrack: we shall then start researching The Corporation
vondrack: regarding the "pact":
vondrack: we sign no formal treaty for the moment
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: though we both agree that such a pact is in fact what we both are interested in
vondrack: and what we shall actually follow
vondrack: we offer techs to you at 15% of their nominal cost
vondrack: and you are easy on luxuries
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: the city goes to 7B
vondrack: and that's pretty much all that I need to know
vondrack: also, I will make sure to keep our relations at least veiled whenever talking to GoW
vondrack: I understand it's not a good idea to disclose the true nature of it
Zayxus: Yes, that is the point: the nature of it is important not to reveal.
vondrack: I will make sure all Legos are aware of that
Zayxus: But it is obvisiously to GOW, if ND has no Luxuries left.
Zayxus: in the screen F2
vondrack: true
vondrack: though they know little about how the deals are arranged
Zayxus: yes.
vondrack: ok, then - I guess that's it for today
Zayxus: About the "7B": could that desert between the mountains be irrigated?
vondrack: yes - once you have Electricity
vondrack: or us, if it is us irrigating it
Zayxus: fine, should know it
Zayxus: about Electricity
vondrack: I know it well because of Voxes
vondrack: they need Electricity badly
vondrack: no fresh water on Legos Minor (aka Voxtavia)
Zayxus: mostly big mountains arround
vondrack: yep
vondrack: very rugged terrain
vondrack: anyway... I feel like getting some sleep now
Zayxus: me too
vondrack: give my best regards to Darekill
vondrack: I kind of regret I was not able to talk to him
Zayxus: yes, thank you
vondrack: I hope we can meet next week
vondrack: same time?
Zayxus: yes, but D. is on trip
vondrack: ah
vondrack: ok, then
Zayxus: 2 weeks
Zayxus: me next week
Zayxus: here
vondrack: ok, looking forward to the next Thursday!
vondrack: take care
Zayxus: bye
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Fri Apr 09 00:04:15 2004

I will do my best to add a couple of comments tomorrow. Ummmm, later today.