Neu Demogyptica - correspondence & foreign affairs

[redstar1]

Sounds like a plan

[lmtoops]

I didn't think about the spying...Zargon, I like the way your mind works. Glad your on my side

I agree with the trade.

[vondrack]

As nobody seems to object the trade, I am PMing Zayxus with the following trade agreement proposal:

Hello, Zayxus!

Find the precised trade agreement draft below. I've checked the tiles that are to be improved and I believe you made one mistake - there is no hill N-NE of Daki. I assume you meant N-NW. If not, feel free to correct the text - as long as it is still a hill, it makes no difference for us.

Legoland-ND Theory of Gravity trade agreement

1) Legoland agrees to provide ND with Theory of Gravity no later than in 720AD (Turn 188). ND agrees to not resell/trade/gift Theory of Gravity to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it.

2) Legoland agrees to use 3 of its native workers to complete the following tasks for ND:

1. roading & irrigating the grassland tile SE of Bonigo
2. roading & irrigating the grassland tile S of Bonigo
3. roading & mining the iron mountain tile NW of Bonigo
4. roading & irrigating the grassland tile SE of Daki
5. roading & irrigating the grassland tile S of Daki
6. roading & mining the hill tile N-NW of Daki
7. roading & irrigating the wheat grassland tile S-SE of the mountain near Essigbar
8. roading & irrigating the wheat grassland tile E-SE of the mountain near Essigbar
9. roading & mining the gold hill tile N of the mountain near Essigbar

The terrain improvements as described shall be started in 700AD and completed with no unnecessary delays.

3) In exchange for Theory of Gravity and the terrain improvements outlined in the Paragraph 2 of this trade agreement, ND agrees to provide Legoland with a 20-turn supply of gems (starting from the turn, which the current gem trade expires on - 690AD, Turn 185) and a 15-turn supply of silks (starting from the turn the current silks trade expires on - 870AD, Turn 203).

On behalf of The Senate of Legoland,
vondrack

I will do my best to attend the regular Thursday chat as usually - though I'm likely to be late by about an hour again.

Cheers,
vondrack

[vondrack]

The regular Thursday chat with Zayxus. I suggest you skim through it. Nothing important agreed upon (aside from finding out that our ToG deal will most probably be accepted), but you will get a feeling of how well we are doing with respect to our "get ND closer to us" plan.

Session Start: Thu Mar 04 21:37:55 2004
Session Ident: #chatdeal
* Now talking in #chatdeal
vondrack: hi, Zayxus!
Zayxus: hello!
vondrack: ah, great!
vondrack: thought everybody was away...
vondrack: gow_cofa is silent
vondrack: MZ away
Zayxus: yes, he has to meet other people
Zayxus: he told me
vondrack: I see. Anyway... just one thing today - in case you accept the ToG deal
vondrack: where would you like us to start?
Zayxus: about the workers: at Bonigo , I suppose, moving arround costs moves, right?
vondrack: yes, unless moving along roads
vondrack: alright, then, we will do it as follows:
vondrack: this turn, the three workers sail from Crossing
vondrack: next turn, they land on the iron mountain
vondrack: next but one turn, they start building a road there
vondrack: so that they do not lose movement points while leaving the mountain
vondrack: ok?
vondrack: then they irrigate
vondrack: then they mine the mountain
Zayxus: all right, I watched a ship coming.
vondrack: watched a ship coming?
Zayxus: members of ND can see a ship on sea
vondrack: which one?
vondrack: the one that will carry our workers cannot be seen yet
vondrack: will be finished in Crossing only this coming turn
Zayxus: near Bonigo
Zayxus: or near Sirtiago
vondrack: ah, that's Nicholas Copernicus
vondrack: that's not a transports ship, really
vondrack: it's there on lookout only
Zayxus: yes, seems not to move any more
vondrack: yup, anchored now
vondrack: just like the other ones along the coast
vondrack: how's the city transfer going?
vondrack: I noticed GoW founded Death Valley
Zayxus: Oh dear, about the cities
Zayxus: MZ demands one of our biggest cities, still
vondrack: Dar-El-Killam?
Zayxus: yes, and Members of ND would like to keep it...
vondrack: hmmm... frankly, I do not see how that could be worked out - if it was part of the original deal between you and them
Zayxus: in the beginning it was a small city...
vondrack: the city sort of seems to be in their sphere of influence
Zayxus: indeed, it is in their influence of lower curruption
vondrack: are there many city improvements there?
Zayxus: Oh yes, even improvements are there
vondrack: well, if GoW were supposed to get it, you can't really complain about them demanding it now... it might be an idea to crank out few quick settlers out of the city to settle the unclaimed parts of the Southern Bob faster
Zayxus: Members of ND wish to keep it.... they want to discuss this with MZ
vondrack: understood
vondrack: btw... what it was you celebrated last turn?
Zayxus: Celebrated?
vondrack: or did you just join the GS party?
Zayxus: the party - smily?
vondrack: yes
Zayxus: that was just a joke
vondrack: ah
vondrack: btw... what is the response to the ToG deal proposal in your forum?
Zayxus: moment
Zayxus: only agreements
vondrack: cool
vondrack: I will dispatch the workers this turn then
Zayxus: thank you.
vondrack: our pleasure
vondrack: the deal is fine for both sides
vondrack: you get a costly tech and quite a lot of terrain improvements, we get luxuries, which we lack
vondrack: plus, we help you to develop faster
vondrack: which is part of our global strategy
Zayxus: right
Zayxus: the save is just open
Zayxus: gems is for a turn
Zayxus: Ivory is for 8 turns left
vondrack: yup, that's correct
vondrack: we will certainly be interested in trading for ivory again - just that until we enter the next age, it's not really possible to formulate a solid proposal
vondrack: our first industrial research project will depend on what tech Vox get for free
Zayxus: oh, let us see
vondrack: so we will get back to you with a proposal in about 4 turns, I believe
Zayxus: that is in time
vondrack: yup
vondrack: alright... unless there is anything else you would like to discuss, I will go now - feeling sleepy today
vondrack: btw... have GS approached you with any trade proposals?
Zayxus: Of cause.
vondrack: it's kind of funny... we haven't received ANY communications from them for many many turns
vondrack: just two of their boats charting the Big Ocean
Zayxus: The council of Neu Cemogyptica had to decide, which offer of which civ had to be accepted.
vondrack: we feel honoured it was us your council chose
Zayxus: Trading was to only important for goods, but for politics, too.
vondrack: understood
Zayxus: My part is to conduct the decisions as Diplomat of ND
vondrack: what is your post in ND, actually? Minister of Foreign Affairs?
vondrack: Chief Diplomat?
Zayxus: As you see, it is me, who writes and talks, thus I am the Diplomat, or Chief Diplomat for the people of ND.
vondrack: I see... but the key decisions are taken by the Council (through voting), right?
vondrack: no President or King or anything like that
Zayxus: Yes, in ND it depends strongly on the decisions of the people of ND.
vondrack: pretty much the same in Lego, I'd say
Zayxus: There is just a council.
Zayxus: Of cause, there is someone, who is suggesting a poll.
vondrack: how many members still active?
Zayxus: I am not sure, perhaps half a dozen.
vondrack: 5-6 of us in Lego, too
Zayxus: There are more hits than votes at each poll.
vondrack: lurkers
vondrack:
Zayxus: seems so.
Zayxus: Are you involved in other DGs?
vondrack: sort of
vondrack: only in ISDG
vondrack: and then as a lurker in the MZO C3C demogame
Zayxus: At other DGs I'm the lurker
vondrack: I used to be one of the Apolyton Consuls during the first stages of ISDG
vondrack: spent an awful lot of time with that game
vondrack: but I was not able to maintain my level of participation
vondrack: and had to step down for my own good
vondrack: now I am mostly lurking there, posting only occasionally
Zayxus: In this DG with ND the decisions are more abstract in politics and deals, in other DGs they still discuss every move
vondrack: while it's very "democractic", it's not overly productive...
Zayxus: I just try to find some important things running to be improved
vondrack: alright, I guess I will go get some sleep
vondrack: see you in a week?
Zayxus: yes.
vondrack: ok, looking forward to it
vondrack: take care
vondrack: bye
Zayxus: bye
Session Close: Thu Mar 04 22:31:38 2004

Also - notice, how it seems that ND and GoW no longer "sleep in one bed". The ND's membership desire to keep the city of Dar-El-Killam is sure to rile GoW up. We naturally do not know what kind of an agreement ND had with GoW and how precisely it was worded, but I bet that ND promised to give Dar-El-Killam to GoW - so GoW is going to be rightfully pissed off now.

[vondrack]

Our ivory deal is just about to expire (only one more turn to go as of this coming turn, I believe), so it's high time to strike a new deal. Obviously, we can try trading Steam Power to ND - I'd suggest trading Steam Power for either 40t of ivory (which I do not believe ND would agree to) or 20t of ivory plus a modest amount of gold... somewhere around 300-500g.

I would very much prefer to keep all our cities in WLTKD throughout the rest of our GA. We have quite a lot of builds pretty tightly scheduled...

Besides, we want to keep ND on our side...

Any objections?

[ZargonX]

Make sure to get a No-Retrade clause in it (which I'm sure you would have, anyway ), and let's keep our people loving us

[vondrack]

Yep, standard legal mumbo-jumbo...

[redstar1]

Speaking of mumbo jumbo.... lots of African countries don't have an airline so they hire aircraft for official visits etc. One aircraft 'belonged' to 5 different african nations in one month. The plane was official name the 'Mumbo Jumbo'.

[vondrack]

Hmmmm... I cannot say this was entirely expected... fresh in my mailbox (from Zayxus):

Hello!

A poll about a Mutual Protection Pact with Legoland had the result, that many of ND would like it. How is the opinion about such a pact between Legoland and Neu Demogyptica?

Sorry, I could not meet you to chat, but after 22:00 (Middle Europe) I was too tired. In future we need to appoint a time for each chat by Email or PM.

Best Regards
Zayxus

[lmtoops]

Hmmm....I would kindly say no. I don't see any benefits, to us, of a MPP. It also can be used against us, in the future, by pulling us into a fake war. It eliminates any element of surprise. It requires us to go to war without any vote or logical thinking, before hand.

So I don't think this is a good idea.

[Kloreep]

What lmtoops said. We can always join them in war as if we had a MPP, but if we don't sign one, our hands aren't tied and we can side with someone else if ND is meeting with too much success.

[Spiffor]

What lmtoops said

ND are the yellow ones, right?

I think we should sign a pact of non-agression, and a pact of goodwill (meaning we'll help if they are fighting a losing war), but definitely no MPP that would bring us to war without a vote, nor a RoP that often goes with MPPs.

[vondrack]

Yes, ND are the yellow ones.

I happen to agree with all of you regarding the MPP - I even indicated this stance as my personal opinion while briefly acknowledging the receipt of Zayxus' message.

There is no need to sign any treaties at all. Spiffor, just FYI, NAPs and this kind of stuff was proven to be pretty much useless, as both major wars started with at least one team breaking his word: Voxes backstabbed GS at the dawn of the Stormian War, GoW backstabbed RP at the outbreak of The Great Bobian War, we more or less betrayed RP in the same war (by siding with GoW&ND). NAPs are only good to create a false feeling of safety and to sparkle flames in the public forum once they're broken.

So, my approach would be the same as all of you suggested. Let's assure ND of our intentions regarding the mutual cooperation. I will, again, explain what our long term policy is - Bob split in halves, GS on Stormia. Anything and everything messing with this balance of power is sure to push us towards the attacked, whoever it would be.

I would use this opportunity to talk about what we perceive as "threatening" and about what kind of policy regarding potential threats we intend to maintain. This should help avoid misunderstandings and make it easy for us to strike once we spot a threat coming from ND - as they will be unable to say "we didn't know you'd mind".

Speaking of which... we might try negotiating for the placement of a city that will be within the striking range of Crossing. This city will be a double-edged sword. ND will be able to use it as a launching point for a seaborne invasion of Legos. OTOH, if ND gets suddenly attacked, such a city would be a blessing - we could move our troops via Crossing and that city in a single turn (am I right? does loading/unloading in a coastal city consume any movement points?), if keeping a properly sized transport fleet in Crossing.

The best location for us (aside from no location at all, just having the tile railroaded and a settler always kept in reserve) would be S-S-S of Bonigo. That would allow ND to attack Crossing via single sea tile only (speaking pre-Nuclear Power), allowing us to block that tile with a strong fleet, making such an invasion even more difficult to carry out. I could try raising this issue, explaining that we see this as a tricky issue and that we would prefer either no city at all or a city S-S-S of Bonigo. Fortunately, no other ND city will ever be within the striking distance of a coastal city of ours.

Furthermore, we could (and should!) use this great opportunity to further strenghten the bonds between us and ND. Just imagine we'd be able to sign a deal ensuring ND buys every single tech we discover for a pre-negotiated price of luxuries and gold (following a formula we'd agree upon, like 1 tech = 20t of a luxury + certain percentage of the nominal beaker cost)! Now that would be absolutely awesome... guaranteed lux supplies and cool gold income for us, guaranteed tech competitiveness for ND. A smaller market for GoW & GS. I believe this is something we should really try hard to get.

To make the long story short: I agree we have no need to enter anything like an MPP. Our side in a potential future conflict shall be determined with respect to our momentary needs, not because of a treaty written hundreds years earlier. However, I believe we should respond very positively, warmly appreciate their interest in signing an MPP with us, countering with an offer effectively even better than what they ask for.

What do you think about the idea of arranging a general tech-for-lux-and-gold pact with ND? We feed them with techs (conditions? rules?), they supply us with luxuries and gold.

[vondrack]

Sounds like we have another deal lined up...

Hello Vondrak!

Thank you for the Mail.

About:
> BTW... have you secured Nationalism from Vox? They got it as their
> free industrial tech... and I specifically asked Beta (chatted with
> him few days ago) to be easy and trade with you, suggesting a
> lux-for-tech deal.

Yesterday I did send a PM to Rhothaerill (Rhoth) about Technology Nationalism - two times: 24. and 7.03.2004 , but as I just checked, I got no answer yet - and the last PM is from 24.03.04. I just wrote a PM to Beta about the deal.

About:
> Well... dunno how much you have and how much you can spend, but
> something like 20t of ivory plus about 400-500g would sound just about
> right. We haven't discussed a precise amount in the Lego forum, only
> the very idea of trading the tech to you, so I am pretty much free to
> negotiate the gold part on my own. If you can spare 500g, we would be
> able to use it well. But if it's too much, say how much you can
> spend and I am sure we will be able to work something out.

All right, ND can offer
- 20t of ivory plus
- 500g

Best Regards
Zayxus

I will send Steam Power to ND as 'unaccepted' this turn, PMing Zayxus with the usual legal wording (though I doubt it's necessary this time, as GoW is getting Steam Power from GS, Vox from us, and RP are stuck in the medieval era).

[vondrack]

I am PMing Zayxus with the following trade proposal (it's just a formality, as I sent Steam Power as accepted this turn):

Legoland-ND Steam Power trade agreement

1) Legoland agrees to provide ND with Steam Power in 760 AD (Turn 192). ND agrees to not resell/trade/gift Steam Power to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it.

2) In exchange for Steam Power, ND agrees to provide Legoland with 500g and a 20-turn supply of ivory. The gold is payable immediately upon the receipt of Steam Power (760 AD, Turn 192). The ivory supply shall start in 760 AD (Turn 192), too.

On behalf of The Senate of Legoland,
vondrack