Vote on Operation Double Edge Plan

[Tiberius]

Anyway, since the majority seems to follow "blindly" your plan, I will obey with the desire of the team.

[ZargonX]

Anyway, since the majority seems to follow "blindly" your plan, I will obey with the desire of the team.

Actually, I don't think we're in agreement at all. Everyone seems to have a different (albeit slightly) view of how the whole "grand scheme" will work out. I wouldn't say we're blindly following, I'd say we're all stumbling in generally the same direction The worker shortage you've pointed out is a very real problem, and one that I think needs to be dealt with, regardless of O2E or not.

[redstar1]

Tib, i don't think there is an objection to building new workers. As a general rule of the game you should have one worker per city. Currently we have this. By the time we lose 2 workers to panama we will have built at least 3 more. in 16/17 turns from now we will have 2 more cities, or have 1 and almost have another. I imagine the first build of these cities will be workers. I agree that we need workers to build the roads and clear the Jungle but I think we are accounting for that.

Unfortunately we can't build everything much as we would like to. Personally I would like it if we had more settlers but I realise the importance the 2 wonders could have for us. We are going to be placing more importance on REX than the other teams imho, therefore we fall behind in military and possibly infrastructure for a while. Great Library allows us to keep in touch in the technology race and the Pyramids allows us to get to the point of total expansion a lot sooner.

I gather that you don't like the plan Thats fair enough, it does no harm to have differing opinions I think its a bold plan, risky in some senses but the payout will be considerable. There are some things I would prefer were different, such as producing more workers but in the end the long term gain outweighs the short term one. Having one city sprinting towards the Pyramids is much better than 6 or 7 cities slowly building granaries.

[lmtoops]

I would blindly follow great Vondrack to the edge of the cliff.....but no further.

ZargonX, Tiberius and others are correct about the worker shortage. I feel the new cities can be worker farms, but that is a general statment; NOT A PLAN. From which cities, when, and what will they work must be answered by a plan.

OK this is where I present my grand plan. Well I don't have a plan or a clue. But I do have a basketball game in 30 minutes, so I better go.

[Sharpe]

I am gravely concerned about the workers being added to Panama and the fact that a LOT of our available resources are being directed to Panama.

One of my arguments against the double wonder plan is that it reduced our flexibility to do things. In just the past few turns:

- It was suggested that we should road the dye that is now in our territory
- I suggested moving a unit to the coast in case we want to land explore mystery isle
- We really should be getting rid of those jungle squares between Legopolis and RedBricks to connect our northern areas to our southern areas by road in order to reduce corruption a little bit there and to get our Legopolis settlers down there faster

All of these were rejected by you because "we need these for the O2E plan" - if it isn't restricting our flexibility I don't know what will! This is becoming extremely frustrating!!

The truth is that we have 2 of our 4 cities building wonders - no I am not including RedBricks - which isn't yet a viable city but really just a size 1 labour camp at the moment building nothing but workers and will continue to do so for 20 turns to replace the workers that we will use up by adding to Panama)

With the Bob civs closer than we thought we desperately need to accelerate our REXing - especially with our long lull between building cities that we are now in. Radek talked about "we are ready to explode in growth" but I hardly call 2 cities REXing exploding - we will still be getting only 2 settlers every 10 turns plus travel time - and if we have to accelerate our REXing we probably need a 3rd REXing city. Forkmouth won't be able to for 15 to 20 turns and under the O2E plan, RedBricks will have to replace the workers that Panama will use up. (We need at least one worker per city - which is what we are at now)

Working on 2 wonders at one time was fine when we thought we were isolated and no one could reach us, but that is clearly not the case anymore.

My proposal for delaying in Panama is to give us a little flexibility. I am fundamentally opposed to adding the 2 workers to Panama - we need them for other things especially the dye and clearing jungle situations listed above.

We can decide whether we want to continue building a wonder in Panama at this slower pace or switch the production in Panama to something else for a while.

For instance, if we built a temple in Panama we would have need for one less military police there and the borders would expand to include an additional plains square and a forest square (and lots of coastline admittedly ) If the dye is connected that might help out too.

Or we could build a 2nd galley there to speed up the exploration of the west coast if Galleyleo has a lot to explore in Mystery Isle (given that we are still no where near the north there I am not discounting the possibility that the island could be fairly large)

Building one wonder this early will be an amazing accomplishment - building 2 at once until we are able to have enough cities to work with may be putting us in a real bind. We must try to minimize the time that we have 2 cities working on wonders. Delaying the Panama wonder a bit will allow us some flexibility to do other equally important things.

The funny thing is that more important wonders in my opinion are in the middle ages - such as Leo's, Sistine, JS Bach etc. And yet we may be using up too much energy building these early wonders - and we also have to build the Forbidden Palace small wonder as well. By the time we get to the middle ages we may not be able to afford to fully work on these more important wonders.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
- It was suggested that we should road the dye that is now in our territory

Steve, why the rush to connect the dyes? We are not suffering from happiness problems, so why the rush? There is the luxury slider. The fact that it was suggested to connect the dyes does not mean that it is something we really need and in turn does not mean that not being able to do so is actually making us less flexible. The flexibility of doing unnecessary things is something we can do without.

Originally posted by Sharpe
- I suggested moving a unit to the coast in case we want to land explore mystery isle

This is the only drawback I will grant you. We really are running thin on military and I readily admit that. There is no plan without drawbacks. Yes, O2E makes us need every single unit we have here, at Legos Major.

Originally posted by Sharpe
- We really should be getting rid of those jungle squares between Legopolis and RedBricks to connect our northern areas to our southern areas by road in order to reduce corruption a little bit there and to get our Legopolis settlers down there faster

Just BTW, when doing my sims for Farmerville, the first thing I did was I connected it to Legopolis with a road. Guess what... NO change in corruption/waste! The city is already so far away that under despotism, the 10% or 15% corr/waste road-related reduction (can't remember the exact number now) actually has no visible effect... at least now (Tibi, could you check it? I am not exactly sure how far I went with my sim at that time... though I distinctly remember that at least for the current Farmerville it had no noticeable effect).

And I have already pointed out that building the road between Legopolis and Red Bricks would save every Merc+Settler combo of ours two turns. Considering the output of the cities we are going to found with them, that would be like 4-6 food and 2-4 shields per every combo. Is THAT worth lowering our chances to get The Pyramids (and every turn of delay IS lowering our chances)? Only the accumulated shield output increase in Panama is higher than that...

So neither corruption reduction nor movement speedup make clearing that jungle and building a road between Legopolis and Red Bricks a priority higher than trying to get The Pyramids as the second "edge".

Originally posted by Sharpe
All of these were rejected by you because "we need these for the O2E plan" - if it isn't restricting our flexibility I don't know what will!

Flexibility is not doing this or that without a well thought-out plan. I do realize that connecting dyes, maybe exploring that island, and building a road from Legopolis to Red Bricks would be nice. But IMO, the benefits are far lower than a good chance to get The Pyramids. With the sheer area of our landmass and number of cities we intend to build, The Pyramids would be awesome. And I have already explained why I consider The Great Library so important.

Originally posted by Sharpe
With the Bob civs closer than we thought we desperately need to accelerate our REXing

WHY? Do we see anyone coming? As far as we know, there is no other civilization having Map Making ATM. Do you consider the possibility that another team would land a settler on our landmass within the next 30 turns REAL? Why would they do that? They have absolutely NO idea about how our landmass looks like, they (with the exception of RPers) have no idea WHERE to go. And they would have almost no means to hold against us, if we decide to wipe their "overseas colony" out. So WHY would someone bother wasting a settler, galley, and an escort unit?

Even Trip, whose PRIMARY goal is to get here, estimates that it will take him AT LEAST 30-40 turns to show up. But at that time, we shall have one wonder finished, the other very close to completion, and at least 5 more cities.

So WHY do you think that we desperately need to speed up our REXing? Do we see another civ REXing with like two cities?

Originally posted by Sharpe
For instance, if we built a temple in Panama we would have need for one less military police there and the borders would expand to include an additional plains square and a forest square (and lots of coastline admittedly ) If the dye is connected that might help out too.

One or two MP units we may need if unwilling to use the luxury slider may be warriors built at 10 shields each. Temple costs 60 (SIXTY!) shields. Under the current plan, Panama will have 7 improved tiles in the current city radius. So what exactly would be the benefit of a Temple?

Originally posted by Sharpe
Building one wonder this early will be an amazing accomplishment - building 2 at once until we are able to have enough cities to work with may be putting us in a real bind. We must try to minimize the time that we have 2 cities working on wonders. Delaying the Panama wonder a bit will allow us some flexibility to do other equally important things.

Pardon me, but this looks like you think it is possible to "delay" building wonders. But it is not. You come late to the party and there is no champagne left. One single turn and all your shields are pretty much wasted. You do have the dyes connected and there is a nice clean road connecting Legopolis to Red Bricks, but if you want to get to the same point as if you had gotten those bloody Pyramids, there are about 24 granaries to be built, each at 60 shields, many of them in hopelessly corrupt 1- or 2- shield cities.

Honestly, I am getting a bit tired of this... I believe we have discussed all the possibilities. Everybody expressed his concerns, everybody had the chance to contribute. But nothing from what I've heard so far made me think we should alter O2E - and that's not because it would be "my" plan. It is because I strongly believe it is the best thing we can do.

This game will not be won by trying to take care of everything at the same time. This game will be won by doing the right thing at the right time. I am convinced that for us, building The Great Library together with The Pyramids IS the right thing to do now.

Sorry, I will not be adding any more comments on the O2E. Unless those that voted "full speed" ahead say here they change their mind, I am going to follow the plan as proposed.

I am not that concerned about what we build in Legopolis and Farmerville. I know that the current plans guarantee us 1 settler every 4.5 turns, one of them escorted by a Merc. If you believe that this is not a Big Bang and want to "speed up" our REXing by building a couple of workers, let it be your way. Put together a plan, I will put together mine and let the team choose. But be so kind and start presenting your concerns and objections as PLANS, not just concerns and objections. If there is another plan presented, an ALTERNATIVE to O2E and Legopolis/Farmerville on full REX, I will be happy to have the team choose.

But so far, I have not seen any other detailed plan submitted, but O2E.

[Sharpe]

Honestly, I am getting a bit tired of this...

Actually Radek, so am I . I initially favoured only working one wonder, but I compromised to delaying it or by slowing it down to use our workers better. You don't think we should change anything - that's your opinion - I am entitled to mine - and truthfully we never did fully vote on O2E before now.

All right, if no one changes their mind, we have the votes for O2E as is and the matter should be closed.

It will just have to be a matter of disagreement between us on our strategies for the game Radek. I am worried that this is becoming personal, and there is no reason for that - it is only a game.

This discussion though does worry me as it seems that we seem to have a variety of ideas even among those that are in favour of O2E - some favour Colossus, others Pyramids, some Gr Library - I personally could care less if we get the Gr Lib as we aren't that far behind in tech - and once we get Libraries and Republic up and going we will be flying through techs - Gr Lib or not

Some have said the Colossus is a backup. Ok, it is a decent wonder - but we can't built it if someone beats us to the Gr Library as it and the Pyramids would trigger our golden age. We need a backup for the Gr Lib and to be honest I don't see one.

So I fervently hope that we get the Gr Lib as I don't believe that RP is going for the Gr Wall. It is rated among the worst wonders by a lot of people - with 200 shields they could get 10 cities walled for the same cost - and I doubt they would wall that many cities - I think that it is a decoy for another wonder.

[Kloreep]

I'm probably gonna vote for both wonders, but I agree the RPers claim about pursuing the Great Wall sounds ludicrous. If they have to be lying to not be going for it, then they are lying; it's one of the worst wonders in the game, and it doesn't even match any of their civ traits (which would help with a peaceful GA). So what are they going for? I'd imagine pretty much anything is up for their consideration: Colossus, Great Lib, Pyramids... we may have to race them to it.

Which, of course, makes every turn all that more important if we do go for both; so if we do go for both wonders, we should devote all we can to them.

[Sharpe]

My guess is that RP is actually going for Pyramids with Colossus as a backup.

While Pyramids doesn't fit with getting a GA from it, it would be a great advantage on such a large continent and might give them an edge over ND as with their religious trait they can keep the unhappiness under control easier (but so can ND of course).

[Sharpe]

But be so kind and start presenting your concerns and objections as PLANS, not just concerns and objections. If there is another plan presented, an ALTERNATIVE to O2E and Legopolis/Farmerville on full REX, I will be happy to have the team choose.

I did submit a plan - not as detailed as yours admittedly - it was a modification of the O2E plan to delay the start of the building of the wonder in Panama while continuing to build the Jackson wonder. By doing so we could move the workers to other tasks - my priority would have been to connect up the dye and to start clearing the jungle between Legopolis and RedBricks and to allow RedBricks to grow a bit so that it can be more useful. As for what Panama would be doing, I left that flexible - my desire would be for a 2nd galley, though a Temple or continuing to work on the wonder at a slower pace would have been acceptable too.

Perhaps I am influenced by my work as an accountant, but when it comes to mid-range plans, I leave my options more open to deal with unexpected events and not to close off any opportunity while striding toward more fixed long range goals and targets.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Actually Radek, so am I . I initially favoured only working one wonder, but I compromised to delaying it or by slowing it down to use our workers better. You don't think we should change anything - that's your opinion - I am entitled to mine - and truthfully we never did fully vote on O2E before now.

All right, if no one changes their mind, we have the votes for O2E as is and the matter should be closed.

Fair enough, I appreciate this. Unless there are members changing their minds, let's consider O2E the official plan we are going to stick to.

Originally posted by Sharpe
It will just have to be a matter of disagreement between us on our strategies for the game Radek. I am worried that this is becoming personal, and there is no reason for that - it is only a game.

Nope, nothing personal, Steve, believe me. If you look at my posts, I am always questioning your arguments, intentions, and reasoning, never your person or ability to submit ideas.

Speaking of this, I might mention something... Yesterday, when I was telling Karina news about our game, I was describing our heated debate over how to proceed from now on. She asked me whether it would be better to simply accomodate those of you that feel worried about the two wonder strategy, slowing down a bit. I hesitated for a moment and then told her that I believe my task here is not to keep everybody on the team happy... my task is to lead us to victory. Unless there is a majority of members disapproving my plans and intentions, I shall stick to what I consider best for the team. Knowingly going for an inferior option (read: for an option I consider inferior) would make me a bad, weak Prez.

To that purpose, I will go to great lengths defending and pushing my plans, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Sharpe
This discussion though does worry me as it seems that we seem to have a variety of ideas even among those that are in favour of O2E - some favour Colossus, others Pyramids, some Gr Library - I personally could care less if we get the Gr Lib as we aren't that far behind in tech - and once we get Libraries and Republic up and going we will be flying through techs - Gr Lib or not

Well, not sure if I understand the discussion correctly, but it is my understanding that we are in agreement that GLib+Pyr is the combo we want now. Only in case we lose the race to one or both of them, we will need a backup wonder to cascade to... and then, I agree, we differ in opinions. However, that's quite natural, I believe, since none of the remaining wonders offers any significant advantage for us.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Some have said the Colossus is a backup. Ok, it is a decent wonder - but we can't built it if someone beats us to the Gr Library as it and the Pyramids would trigger our golden age. We need a backup for the Gr Lib and to be honest I don't see one.

This is true only in case we failed on GLib, built Pyramids and wanted to go for Colossus as the second wonder. In that case, yes, we'd suffer quite a setback, having to waive Colossus in favour of another wonder that will not trigger our GA. However, if we miss on GLib, which I seriously doubt, btw, we will know it between turns 80-93, when Panama will be at 81-189 shields. Depending on the actual number of accumulated shields, we will have more than one option: waive a couple of shields, building a harbour or a library... slow the wonder construction down and switch to republic before finishing the wonder... slow the construction down and use the unfinished wonder as a prebuild for one of the early medieval wonders (SunTzu's AoW comes into my mind). That's pretty good as far as flexibility is concerned, I believe.

Originally posted by Sharpe
So I fervently hope that we get the Gr Lib as I don't believe that RP is going for the Gr Wall. It is rated among the worst wonders by a lot of people - with 200 shields they could get 10 cities walled for the same cost - and I doubt they would wall that many cities - I think that it is a decoy for another wonder.

Well, utility of a wonder depends on circumstances... RPers are apparently concerned about their security a lot. Building a wonder that will provide every new city with instant walls is not a totally bad idea, especially considering the low cost of the wonder.

But I would like to point something interesting out. If you check the Top5 pictures from the last couple of turns, you will notice that RPer's capital is now at pop 5, NOT GROWING since Turn 60. They hit pop 4 on Turn 55 (pop 3 on Turn 50), which means they either have a granary or a +4 food source there. Now, they may be just building units or something, but even if they work on a wonder... count with me:

They built a settler on Turn 47 (since they dropped down in pop on that turn, by 2). As gaining pop+1 took them 10 turns between Turns 36-46 (while building that settler), they do not have a granary, but must have a +4 food tile in their capital city radius (I believe they chopped down and irrigated a game forest tile... that would explain the "normal" growth before Turn 47 and their fast current growth). What is the maximum shield output of a pop 5 city with such a tile?

city tile ... 1 shield, no exceptions
tile 1 ... +4 food, 1 shield max
tile 2,3,4,5 ... 2 shields each max (mined hills and bonus grasslands)

That's 10 shields. They don't have iron in their capital city radius, as I recall Togas or Arnelos mentioning that only ND had iron connected. If RPers had iron so close they would have connected it ASAP. So, that gives us the output of 10 shields...

They started at turn 47 with pop 2:

Turns 47-49 (pop 2), 3 turns at 3 shields max = 9 shields
Turns 50-54 (pop 3), 5 turns at 5 shields max = 25 shields
Turns 55-60 (pop 4), 5 turns at 7 shields max = 35 shields
Turns 61-63 (pop 5), 3 turns at 10 shields max = 30 shields
ATM, they would have 99 shields accumulated and need 31 more turns at 10 shields/turn to build the GLib. That's two turns more than we are going to need in Jackson, assuming we get no iron near that city.
I know that the actual progress could not have been as described - it must have been a little bit worse due to working that high food tile, but even this impossible best case scenario still puts them behind us.

We will be wiser in about 10-15 turns, since if they really are after the Great Wall, they should be done around that time (unless their shield output is much worse then I assume). If they remain at pop 5 and continue building, then they may be going after a bigger wonder. However, even in that case, we will still beat them to GLib as shown above.

And as for building a wonder in another city... that's highly unlikely. Keep in mind that they have non-ind workers. They would not be able to improve that city area enough...

Considering all this, I do not think RPers would be in a position to beat us to the Great Library.

Originally posted by Sharpe
I did submit a plan - not as detailed as yours admittedly - it was a modification of the O2E plan to delay the start of the building of the wonder in Panama while continuing to build the Jackson wonder. By doing so we could move the workers to other tasks - my priority would have been to connect up the dye and to start clearing the jungle between Legopolis and RedBricks and to allow RedBricks to grow a bit so that it can be more useful. As for what Panama would be doing, I left that flexible - my desire would be for a 2nd galley, though a Temple or continuing to work on the wonder at a slower pace would have been acceptable too.

Correct, this was a plan, even if not as detailed as O2E, I agree. So, we have had the poll and O2E gained the majority support - let's go for it at full speed then.

This said, there is the other part of my plans - keeping Farmerville and Legopolis on full REX, producing only Settlers (and Mercs in Legopolis). As changing this part of the plan does not interfere with O2E, I am open to discussion... if majority feels that sacrificing a settler for 2 workers is the way to go, let's do it (in Farmerville). We would need one less escort/garrison and we might start doing things Steve sees as priorities - connecting the dyes and building the road between Legopolis and Red Bricks. I am not THAT strongly convinced about this part... I can see that taking this way would have some benefits over spitting out only settlers... the difference in my eyes is small (even though I would still favour full REX with no more workers from Farmerville).

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by redstar1
Got MOO3 too, its damn hard going. Don't really see the point yet but i'll read the manual later.

The manual is definitly a must, I spent a whole day with the manual and still don't think I understand everything.

[quantum_mechani]

Oh I almost forgot, check out the Infogrames/MoO3/Strategy forums and look for posts by Chadmium; they are BIG help in filling in the gaps in the manual.

[quantum_mechani]

Ok, I realize I am responding to my own posts and threadjacking, but I know first hand how frustrating learning MoO3 is and this FAQ helps a lot.

MoO3 FAQ