Vox Controli - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Tiberius]

I've had an exchange of emails and PMs with BetaHound, who is the Voice of Foreign Affairs of Vox Controli. In the first email I've sent to him (which I can't find now; I've probably sent it from work) I asked for a minimap exchange, arguing that we will be able to sail soon and we would like to meet them, establish diplomatic relations, etc. I assured them that we are peaceful people, wanting to trade, that we don't have any intentions of settling their land, and stuff like this.

Getting a little impatient after not getting a response after several days, I've sent a PM asking if they got my email. The response:

Yes we have it. It is currently inder debate on the floor of the Voxian senate chambers. These things take time. I believe however, that the concensus will be that we do not trade minimaps. This is more a question of morality than strategy. Our team does not feel it is in keeping with the spirit and intent of the game. We can, and will howvere, give you a detailed written description of both geography and politices from Vox's point of view - in return of course, for you view.
How does that sound? ... Beta

My next PM:

It does sound good for me but I have to talk with my team and will come back with an answer. It would help if you could tell me in more detail what do you mean by "detailed written description of both geography and politices from Vox's point of view" ?

The answer:

What I mean is that I will provide detailed written description of where we are in the world, what our land looks like, who are neighbours are, what kind of relations we have with them, etc. And you do the same. It is widely understood that you are on a landmasss by yourself, but we asssume you have made contact with other civs over a straight of water of some sort. Otherwise - you would be in a deep technological hole.

Hope this clarifies what I mean. Let's talk. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by being friends and open with each other. We are not nearby neighbours, so we won't be vying for the same piece of geography in the near future. Looking forward to hearing from you.

To clarify: I've said absolutely nothing about us (except for the upcoming discovery of Map Making), so everything he says about us (that we are alone, for instance) are speculations or info from other civs.

I think that from here Redstar (with or without the involvement of the President himself ) could take over these negotiations or at least help me phrasing a proper answer to their proposal.

[Nimitz]

Thats good that they think we have contact it means we are close to par on tech.

[Kloreep]

Hmm... interesting that they think we've made contact. They're in for a surprise when we send our write-up...

It may not be as helpful as mini-maps, but this information trade sounds good to me.

[vondrack]

Sigh...

I must admit I am somewhat hesitant about this deal. A straight minimap exchange would be perfectly okay, but what they ask for is, IMHO, too much. We do NOT want to tell them (or anyone else, for that matter) any details about our landmass. Details like its size, the amount of good land we have... and at the same time, I do not want to lie to them...

This is my personal opinion only, but... I would probably tell them we discussed their proposal, but regretfully have to decline, as there is so little we could tell them, that we would not consider it a fair deal. Let's tell them we're alone on a fairly well-sized island with quite some bit of desert and mountains, separated from others by a vast looking ocean, thus having no ingame contacts yet. I would not be afraid of telling them that we got lucky with actually "beelining" for Map Making almost from the very beginning (having researched just one tech, BW, that was not on the path to MM). That will explain our tech level, while not telling too much about the goody hut tech orgies we have had here.

Maybe telling them we are pretty much screwed on luxuries, having only one kind of it... (that might suggest our landmass is not that large) might be ok. I'd tell them we do have some second- and third-hand outgame info on the events on the 4-civ continent... but our knowledge of what's happening is far from complete.

If they feel like telling us something about them, we will appreciate that, but for the moment, we are so "well" isolated that there is actually hardly anything to report.

[Tiberius]

Vox Minimap

This is what I've got from Vox Controli, after delivering them some information (more or less what Vondrack said).

Tiberius, my friend.

Good news. The 'rules' fundamentalist movement in Vox has crumbled, and a mini-map is on its way to you from Dissident. Commerce rules!

We are very keen on establishing solid and long-term relations with you. We industrious civs need to stick together, eh. Speaking of which - we have a good relationship with the people of the Gathering Storm, our neighbours.

I can give you much more detail on our technical achievements. We are world leaders in this regard - and are currently researching Philosophy, as part of a joint-team research arrangement on our way to The Republic.

If you could sail in our direction with your first galley - we think that would be due west from your locale - the mini-maps should help here - and help see if your galley can make it - then we could establish formal trading relationships. We could also guarantee you a good trading deal on a wide selection of technology at a very good rates. We believe that reasonable deals pave the way to a solid friendship. In fact - we are willing to offer very, very good deals if we were to be your first contact.

Please give this some consideration, and I can provide more details later. Alas - it is late - and I must be off to bed. The mini-map should be on its way. We look forward to yours in return. Dissident at Krusher3x@yahoo.com is the best address to use.

Cheers my dear sir. And regards to the industrious folks of Legoland. We salute you!

Sincerely - BetaHound, Voice of Foreign affairs, Vox Controli

[vondrack]

Re: Vox Minimap

Originally posted by Tiberius
This is what I've got from Vox Controli, after delivering them some information (more or less what Vondrack said).

3500BC minimaps exchanged, update to be found in the Chronicle update later today.

[Tiberius]

I've sent the following message to BetaHound today, at 8,35 AM GMT. Sorry, I was busy and I didn't have the time to post it earlier.

Hello again my friend,

Woof, woof! Khmm, hmm, sorry, I mean, glad to see you again

We haven't talked for a long time, and I'm really sorry for that. I know it was a difficult decision and yet I haven't even thank you for the minimap exchange. Thank you Unfortunately the GodZ of Civ3 have put us on very distant locations on the map and this has clearly influenced our (lack of) relations until now. This will hopefully change in the near future (the relations, not the location ), and in regard to this issue I have good news for you: first, we are going te get your contact soon and second, I'm the new ambassador to Vox Controli

With the official contact being almost established, we should maybe begin working on those mutually beneficial arrangements we were talking bout.

The first trade that is doable right now is perhaps a tech exchange, or more precisely a future tech exchange arrangement. Like I said in my previous message, we are not behind in the tech race. Let's just say that the lesser tribes living in huts were very, very friendly with us Also in the last couple of turns we managed to sign some very good tech deals, therefor we can offer you the following proposal:

In less than 10 turns we can offer you Construction and Currency. This would allow to your nation to enter the next age. In return we would like your free tech, the one you get once you go medieval.

Well, this is just a rough proposal, please feel free to make a counter proposal in case you want it changed, have other ideas, want some other tech, etc. We thought this would be the best solution in this case, as we could start from the same point in the medieval times, but we are open to discuss any proposal.

Just one comment in regard to my ambassadorship: given my limited online time, please contact me in PMs or emails for any businesses related to Legoland but in case you need urgent talking with us (chat), please contact Vondrack (our President) or Nimitz (our FA). However, in case we agree on scheduled chats, I will try to be there.

Best regards to the Voxian people.

Cheers,
Tiberius the Enlightened (Minister of Economy and Science)
Legoland

[Tiberius]

Is there a possibility to delete a PM that wasn't opened yet? If so, we might consider deleting one of them (Radek, do you mind posting yours too, to see which one to keep?). If we can't delete one of them, it will be quite embarassing.

Btw, BetaHound didn't open my message yet.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Is there a possibility to delete a PM that wasn't opened yet? If so, we might consider deleting one of them (Radek, do you mind posting yours too, to see which one to keep?). If we can't delete one of them, it will be quite embarassing.

Btw, BetaHound didn't open my message yet.

Yes, it is possible, I think - go into your "Sent Items" folder, tick the checkbox mark to the very right and push the Delete button at the bottom of the screen. It should delete the PM both from your box and BH's.

Be so kind and delete your message, if possible - there is one thing I would not like to make so obvious (that we have or will have Construction). I was very vague in my PM, just proposing "providing Voxes with techs needed to go medieval in exchange for their free medieval tech).

However, keep the text somewhere - much of it can be reused later on.

[Tiberius]

What's the problem with Construction? It is needed to go medieval, so "techs needed to go medieval" means construction, too. What other tech could we possibly trade with them? I don't understand what is wrong with saying "construction".

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
What's the problem with Construction? It is needed to go medieval, so "techs needed to go medieval" means construction, too. What other tech could we possibly trade with them? I don't understand what is wrong with saying "construction".

Nothing really wrong, I would just prefer not naming the tech directly. If we phrase it vaguely, we can always bargain, 'cause they will consider the Construction tech more valuable (assuming we have to get it somewhere together with rights to resell it). If we plainly admit we are able to provide them with the tech, we give them a hint we have already secured it... thus weakening our position a bit. Not a big deal, of course... it's just a minor detail.

[Tiberius]

They are somehow secretive and not very open to "special" deals, so to speak (see the minimap exchange). Therefor, while I agree with you that this will slightly weaken our position, I think we must give them something really attractive otherwise they won't "bite" the deal. My impression is that if we go only with a vague proposal right now, they will just say that "sorry, we already have a deal with the GS, blah-blah". I might be wrong, but I'd rather not risk this deal. We just don't knwo what arrangement the GS will offer to us for Monotheism.

Edit: this is futile now. Beta has opened the PM more than half an hour ago, I just forgot to refresh the tracking screen (where I was preparing to cancel it). Let's see what kind of answer we get.

[Tiberius]

In case they accept the trade (no words from them until now), what is the exact date when we want to make the exchange? Turn 84? (to syncronize it with the GoW and GS exchanges)

[vondrack]

As announced in the GS diplo thread, I have had a chat with BetaHound of Vox Controli this night. First, here is the log (only very slightly edited):

Session Start: Mon Mar 24 23:14:13 2003
Session Ident: BetaHound
vondrack: Hello!
BetaHound: hello
BetaHound: how are you?
vondrack: quite fine, thanks
vondrack: you?
BetaHound: good thanks; sorry for the slight delay; whats' up
vondrack: well, some trading issues to discuss
BetaHound: okey dokey
vondrack: let me make a short summary first:
vondrack: 1) we will have Currency in 4 turns
vondrack: 2) we will have Construction at the same time
vondrack: now, we had an idea
vondrack: to make you, us, and GS enter the medieval times at the same time
vondrack: giving every one of us the same techs
vondrack: Curr+Constr, Rep, Monotheism
vondrack: we thought it would have been a fair deal, beneficial to everybody
vondrack: now, things got a bit more complex than we anticipated
vondrack: there seems to be something going on between you and GS... like you may be sharing techs or something... dunno
vondrack: either way, we would like to discuss a possible trade between you and us
vondrack: are you free to arrange your deals without having to consult GS?
BetaHound: yup
vondrack: great
vondrack: now, what techs do you need to leave the ancient times?
vondrack: if any, of course
BetaHound: that may be the problem - we have everything arranged
BetaHound: we think
vondrack: ok, let me ask - is that "arranged" through GS?
vondrack: at least partially?
BetaHound: hmmmm - rather not say - if that is OK.
vondrack: well, then I will explain
vondrack: we had a deal pre-discussed with GS
vondrack: but it later turned out that both parties understood it in a different way
vondrack: and there is now a major problem
BetaHound: which is?
vondrack: since our original idea was to trade Curr, Constr, Rep, and your free medieval tech between our team, yours, and GS
vondrack: no extra money involved
vondrack: just techs
vondrack: the costs are approximately equal: Curr+Constr, Rep, Mono
vondrack: so every team would throw in the same and get the same
vondrack: more or less
vondrack: the problem is
vondrack: that it seems like we may be supposed to throw in more to get Mono
vondrack: which we do not really like
vondrack: it seems rather unfair to us
vondrack: now, what we do about it?
BetaHound: so - your trade with GS was republic for curr and construction?
vondrack: possibly
vondrack: not sure how much I can reveal
BetaHound: hmmm - OK
vondrack: basically, yes
vondrack: now, how much of what we are now talking about will get to GS?
BetaHound: zip
vondrack: k
vondrack: there were more clauses in the deal
vondrack: we at first wanted to swap curr+constr for rep
vondrack: with them
vondrack: and curr+constr for the "free" tech with you
vondrack: assuming they would swap rep for your free tech with you
vondrack: which would be fair
vondrack: maybe they'd have to throw in some more cash in the deal with you
vondrack: the problem now is
vondrack: that GS wants us to give them curr+constr
vondrack: for rep
vondrack: then trade these for mono with you
vondrack: and provide mono to us "for a favourable price"
vondrack: but we do not feel like agreeing to such a deal
vondrack: see my reasoning above
BetaHound: ahhh..I see.
BetaHound: yup
vondrack: this would clearly be beneficial only to GS
BetaHound: for sure
vondrack: both of us would get less
BetaHound: question.
BetaHound: Do you have cash?
vondrack: reasonable amount of, yes
BetaHound: OK - how about this?
vondrack: and likely to get a bit more - we have this Barbarian Express Card Platinum, you know
vondrack: yes?
BetaHound: Wait till I am finished before you respond.
vondrack: ok
BetaHound: You give us 100 gold now and 50 when we give you the free tech.
BetaHound: We will give you the free tech.
BetaHound: Within 30 turns of that deal being finalized, we will give you 100 gold back.
BetaHound: So in effect - we sell it to you for 50 gold
BetaHound: We need a loan.
BetaHound: Finished.
vondrack: plus curr+constr, right?
BetaHound: No - they are coming. We have other sources.
vondrack: or would you get those form GS?
vondrack: ah, ok
vondrack: on condition we make the deal with them...
BetaHound: OK - sounds fair.
vondrack: we are the only source of construction in the world
BetaHound: And we solenmly promise to repay.
vondrack: well, what about this:
vondrack: you throw in Mono resale rights for one more team of our choice, we add 25 more gold and the deal is done
BetaHound: OK - can I suggest you make that deal now - and that RP may be the only team left to deal with.
BetaHound: Sorry - we have been busy.
BetaHound: Is that still worth 25 gold to you?
vondrack: not sure what you mean now... can you clarify?
BetaHound: We may have deals with all the other teams but RP sewed up for mono.
BetaHound: They may not pan out - but if they do - RP will be the only one left.
vondrack: sounds doable... but I would probably prefer getting back to the original 100+50 deal
BetaHound: understood. Maybe we should leave it flexible - if we can't strike a deal - we give you the re-trade rights for 25 gold only if two or more teams are involved. Fair?
vondrack: may I make a small side-step?
vondrack: this may clarify something for me
vondrack: how serious your situation on Bob is?
BetaHound: not pretty - but we are talking
vondrack: we may be able to provide you with a little bit of intel
BetaHound: OK - I'm all ears.
vondrack: how much do you know about bob (geography I mean)?
BetaHound: We know it is large.
vondrack: but no map, right?
BetaHound: no
vondrack: weeellll...
vondrack: what if Lego has an almost complete map of Bob?
BetaHound: hmmm
vondrack: with no strings attached
BetaHound: Would be helpful - very helpful.
vondrack: well, back to the main topic
vondrack: how much money do you need ATM?
BetaHound: 4000 gold
BetaHound: hehe
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: the idea:
BetaHound: 100 at a minimum. More would be great
vondrack: what if we make the loan bigger
vondrack: but you pay it pack later on in full?
BetaHound: Or provide a future tech?
vondrack: good idea!
vondrack: that would certainly be a way
vondrack: yes
BetaHound: So - how much are you talking?
vondrack: ATM, we can scrap only 80, I think (wait till I am finished)
vondrack: but we will get more from our deals very shortly
vondrack: I believe that we would be able to make it 200 together
BetaHound: OK
vondrack: may even be better than that, but I would be promising too much
BetaHound: so we provide mono when we get it
BetaHound: you provide 100 gold as soon as you have it and 100 more when we provide mono
BetaHound: and we either pay 150 back, or offer up a free tech
BetaHound: is that the deal?
vondrack: just a sec
vondrack: yes, that sounds like an acceptable deal
BetaHound: great - and what about the map. pretty please.
BetaHound: I asked nicely
BetaHound:
vondrack: we would be able to provide you with an outgame image
vondrack: as a special courtesy
BetaHound: OK - sounds good
vondrack: ingame is not possible, since it would include our own land
BetaHound: Thank-you. Great doing business with you!
vondrack: one more thing
vondrack: nah, forget it
vondrack: I was going to ask
vondrack: how long will Vox last (to be able to repay the loan)... but that was obviously a very stupid question
vondrack: how much would you value that map?
vondrack: I mean
vondrack: I know you would not be able to pay for it
vondrack: but let's say
BetaHound: Don't worry about that. We may appear to be off-balanced in public - but we are not crazy.
vondrack:
vondrack: I thought so
BetaHound: North Estonia is like a fortress
vondrack:
BetaHound: there is only one tile into it
vondrack: re: map
BetaHound: and we have Elipolis built there
BetaHound: we may not have much room to expand - but we would be hard to take out.
vondrack:
vondrack: ok
vondrack: well, let me summarize:
vondrack: 1) Lego will provide Vox with 100 gold ASAP (3 turn max)
vondrack: - we can do 80 immediately, 20 in 3 turns, if it helps
BetaHound: no - 100 in 3 is good thanks
vondrack: 2) Lego will receive your free tech (most likely Monotheism) as soon as you get it
vondrack: and provide more 100 gold in exchange
vondrack: out of those 200 gold, 150 will be repayed within 30 turns of the Monotheism exchange
vondrack: the possibility of "paying" back with a technology will be negotiable
BetaHound: yup - sounds good.
vondrack: plus, as a special extra, Legoland will provide Vox with an outgame image of Bob that will not be paid for
BetaHound: deal.
vondrack: - hope you will keep this "gift" in mind later on...
BetaHound: and you are getting a good price on the tech
vondrack: yes... one more question:
BetaHound: but yes - we will keep it in mind
BetaHound: yes - shoot
vondrack: if we stall the deal with GS (for whatever reason), shall it affect our own deal (read: delay the Mono delivery)?
vondrack: just to be sure what affects what, so that we do not mess up
BetaHound: to a certain extent - yes.
vondrack: ok, we will keep that in mind
BetaHound: oh - btw - can you send me the relevant part of this conversation with the actual deal.
vondrack: I can send you the full log, if you like
BetaHound: OK - that would be great thanks.
vondrack: fine
vondrack: pleasure talking to you
vondrack: wish you good luck with the war
BetaHound: and with you - as always
vondrack: and we will make sure the money is with you ASAP
vondrack: take care
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Tue Mar 25 00:29:57 2003

I will add my comments and the trade agreement proposal in the next post.

[vondrack]

Here goes the trade agreement proposal I am going to send to BetaHound:

Vox-Lego Monotheism Trade Agreement of 1050BC

Hereby, Vox Controli and Legoland agree upon that:

1) Legoland will provide Vox Controli with 100 gold at its earliest convenience (no later than on its Turn 81, so that Vox Controli receives the money on its Turn 82).

2) Vox Controli will provide Legoland with the "free" technology granted to scientific civilizations upon entering the medieval ages (most probably Monotheism in this case) on the very turn Vox Controli receives it.

3) Legoland will provide Vox Controli with 100 more gold immediately upon the receipt of the "free medieval" technology mentioned in the previous paragraph.

4) Vox Controli will repay 150 gold back to Legoland within 30 turns of receiving the second part of the "loan" (see the previous paragraph).

5) Both teams agree that it may be possible to negotiate using a technology to repay part or whole of the 150 gold "loan".

6) Legoland will not be allowed to resell/trade/gift the technology received from Vox Controli, unless expressly authorized by an amendment to this trade agreement.

7) Both teams agree to disclose no details of this trade agreement to a third party.

Few comments: in the worst case, we'll get Monotheism for 50 gold, which is very reasonable (moreover, we will likely get some gold from GS, as we will now offer just a simplified deal, not covering Monotheism). In the best case, we will get it effectively for free...

For us, helping Voxes out in their war, even if secretly, is rather advantageous - the longer and more they slow down Bobians, the better for us. Plus, we will not actually need the gold until we go into Republic, which will not happen until we finish Pyramids (Turn 93, 10 turns into the "repay" period + some anarchy...), and even then, we will most likely have gold enough anyway... so the loan shall not really mess up with our own plans.

There is some risk involved, of course... if Voxes lose the war and get exterminated, we lose the loan... unless, of course, we offer them refuge on... oh! better not even think of such a turn of tides...