Master Builder Thread

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Hmm, actually I'd be for building the camps earlier. All we need to build in these camps are barracks and immediately after that they could churn out units after units.

This way we could focus in the permanent new cities on infrastructure (temples, markets, libraries, cathedrals) without having to worry about the lack of a proper army.

Well, you need the camp to grow to about pop 3-5 to be useful. That takes time (~20-30 turns). So, the camp cities would not be very useful until about 20-30 turns from now. But that's almost what we consider a possible timeframe of our GA. Given that the permanent cities are going to need as much time to grow, I would really prefer having the permanent cities (that will use the GA to get the basic infra done) founded before the camps.

Keep in mind that we can have the newly founded cities function as military camps for some time, too - with the added benefit of actually developing (even if only with barracks) permanent cities.

If we had improved tiles that would often/all the time be not worked by any permanent cities, then camps would be in order, IMHO. But I do not see any tiles like that, not enough for camps - plus, our cities are growing, so even those few tiles still not used permanently should soon be worked as well.

We would have to develop tiles for the camp cities. So, why not develop tiles for permanent cities, using them temporarily as camps?

[ZargonX]

I would also be agreeable to founding 1 or 2 of the camps before some of the latter "permanent" cities. At this point, I would value a camp more than some of the regular sites. Camps will let us take some of the military build load off the main cities, and let us focus on infrastructure there, as Tiberius says.

[redstar1]

Well as Vondrack says, can't we use the position of a permanent city as a camp site for as long as we need it to be?

I'm in favour of utilising cities for this purpose, but I'm also in favour of completing our expansion plans as quickly as possible. So why not combine the two?

[Tiberius]

The trick (problem?) with camps is that the earlier you found them, the better. A camp with a production of 10 spt is great to build 30 shield mercenaries, is OK to build 60 shield musketmen, but with more and more advanced units it takes longer and longer to build them, since the city is not growing, it is not developing. A Cavalry or a Rifleman are already 80 shields, which means 8 turns to build them. Not so efficient anymore. In our GA a camp could produce ~ 15 spt, which is great to build even knights (5 turns/knight is not bad), but when the GA will be over, their efficiency will fall sharply (even though only hospitals will render them completely useless).

Besides why would we use new cities as camps, when we could build infrastructure in them, while the camps are building units? This is the beauty of it. When the camps become obsolate the new cities could take their places, with all the infrastructure already in place.

I'm very strongly against using new cities as military camps. We would basically waste our GA doing that. During our GA the camps could build a musketman every 4 turns or a knight every 5 turns, while the new cities would build markets and libraries. It is just so much better.

We can grow the camps quickly adding workers to them. We have the capacity to build quickly a lot of workers; this is the power of the Pyramids.

I'd suggest to found 2 new cities with the settlers currently being in production, and the camps with the following two. We need also a lot more workers, to have the improvements done.

If we wait with the camps until all the cities are built, and they won't be ready in time for our GA (pop. 5 + baracks), then we better drop the whole thing.

[Sharpe]

I still strongly favor building a camp E of the iron (North-east of Karina).

It could borrow up to 3 squares of Karina (2 irrigation and one plains) to accelerate its population growth, but also have access to 2 hills of its own that will never otherwise be in any city radius. Also it has a saltpeter that could be easily linked up. It could also borrow additional hills from Karina, Crossing, Zargonia and perhaps even Logville.

I was mostly thinking of using it as a "build artillery" type of city, which wouldn't even need a barracks.

Its one weakness compared to Goliath and David is that at the position east of the iron hill it would only have access to the 3 "food" squares in Karina, while Goliath would have access to 7 and David 9. However, that would also mean that it wouldn't need a temple either.

Locating it one square further south would increase the available "food" squares to 7 but would perhaps delay getting that saltpeter into our borders (unless Zargonia expanded that is).

I agree that we need to consider building some of these camp cities even before some of our permanent cities.

Although I like the idea of Goliath, David and IronPeter -
I suspect that we can't afford to have 3 camp cities surrounding Karina - probably only 2 at most - as we don't want to hinder Karina's growth too much (although for shields, Karina is already nearing its maximum only having 1 hills and some plains to go).

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
FYI, I have spent some time with the plan for Jackson. I believe it's our best city for the GA trigger wonder build. Low corruption, decent growth potential and shield output up to 22spt at pop 12.

I have come up with an IMHO pretty viable plan of having Magellan's built there in about 25 turns from now (after finishing the current knight build, squeezing in a marketplace, and then the wonder).

Be so kind, have a look here and tell me what you think.

The plan looks pretty solid, even though I have to admit that I didn't check thoroughly every single line of it

I was thinking what to do with Legopolis if we start our GA in 24 turns, and I believe we should use it to build infrastructure and wonders.

(Disclaimer: I'm not aware how exactly Legopolis will grow and how many spt will produce in the process; all my numbers are therefor estimates, not exact calculations. Please excuse my laziness; I'm at work )

Legopolis will finish Bach's in 4 turns. I believe we should build a university after that, to boost our science output. This would take ~ 9 turns. By the time we start our GA, we will have ~ 240 shields "stockpiled" in Legopolis (Sistine prebuild). During the GA the raw output of Legopolis will be 37 shields (according to Radek's calculations), which means 740 total shields. Now, my idea would be to switch from the Sistine to Smith's, which would be ready on the 10th turn of the GA. In another 10 turns Legopolis would produce another 370 shields and would finish the Sistine Chappel in ~ 10 turns after the end of the GA.

Alternatively, we could skip the uni and start the Sistine immediately after Bach's Cathedral (we would switch later to Smith's, of course). This would mean stockpiling ~ 440 shields in the 20 turns before the GA, and 740 during it for a total of 1180 shields. We would have both wonders ready one turn after the end of our golden ages!

The only downsides of this plan are:
1. Delaying Sistine again. I believe that with the Bach's ready, we won't really have happiness problems and we can delay the Sistine with another 20 turns.
2. We could use Legopolis to build military, instead of wonders. Well, IMO we have enough cities to do this. Let's improve our finances; we could need a lot of money for future upgrades (musketman -> rifleman, knights -> cavalry, catapults -> cannons -> artillery).

This way we would use only 2 cities to build wonders (and Jackson could very well build ships and knights while in GA), all the others being able to focus on infrastructure and military production.

[Tiberius]

@ Logville:

Something I wanted to ask ever since I saw the turn summary:

why is Logville building marketplace? Are we done with the settlers? I'd still favour buidling two camps, to crank out units during our GA (and after), allowing for some infrastructure builds in other cities.

We also need more workers, to prepare our cities for the GA (plus still a lot of jungle to clear). We can join them later back to cities to maximize the GA output.

@ Kloreepville:

Let's build the cat for now, we are short of them anyhow. After that, perhaps barracks instead of market or library? Only 4 cities have more spt than Kloreepville, while the commerce output is not that great, so perhaps building military here (and later ships) would make more sense than infrastructure. Perhaps a cathedral after we cut some more jungles to let the city grow, but until then (and after that) I'm for dedicating it for military production.

[ZargonX]

I have to agree with Tiberius on both points. Kloreepville would make a good military production city, and we should switch it over to such sooner rather than later. Also, one or two camps have been called for before, so we might as well work out a full plan for them. Our military still needs improvement, and it will never get better if we keep putting it off.

[Tiberius]

I was thinking what to build in Legopolis after Bach's. Unless I'm wrong, most of us favour a university, to boost our science output, especially during our GA.

Now, I have a (wild) idea:
What if we build Copenicus' Observatory instead?

The comparison between a uni and the wonder:

                cost   science boost    upkeep     culture      
University .... 200         50 %         2 gpt        4
Observatory ... 400        100 %         0 gpt        4

So basically building Copernicus' Observatory is like building two universities, both in cost and in outcome, except for the upkeep cost. Since we want to build one, why wouldn't we build two, and for no upkeep? The only disadvantage is the (relatively) long time it takes to build it.

The Observatory would be ready just before the beginning of our GA, so unless we have something more urgent to build here, I say go for it

[vondrack]

I haven't tried to compare these build in this way... but shown side by side, building the Observatory does not sound like a bad idea... I believe the only other contesting option would be to build a uni and a bank... however, with all our big cities getting marketplaces (but not all of them libraries!), this sounds better.

Yes, I think I would support the Observatory (we can pretend to be building the Sistine's... again ).

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
we can pretend to be building the Sistine's... again ).

Of course

Btw, the Observatory would boost our science output by ~ 10 %, which is not bad, if you asked me.

[Kloreep]

It occurs to me that once Invoice completes its harbor, it will be ideal for a 2-turn worker pump. I think we should make it one; the workers can help out with railing the nation and finishing off improvements & jungle clearing, and can then join the many cities that will no doubt have hospitals and be growing metros by then.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
It occurs to me that once Invoice completes its harbor, it will be ideal for a 2-turn worker pump. I think we should make it one; the workers can help out with railing the nation and finishing off improvements & jungle clearing, and can then join the many cities that will no doubt have hospitals and be growing metros by then.

You are speaking post-GA, right? I think it's a very good idea post-GA (irrigating 1 bonus grassland, getting the city to +5fpt and 5spt). However, I think we should use the GA (10-12spt) to build as many city improvements as possible - courthouse (to keep the waste/corruption low), marketplace (for the extra "free" gold), and temple (to increase to city radius as much/fast as possible, countering the influence of Panama Vox, too) come to my mind.

[vondrack]

As promised in the Next Turn thread, here is a summary of all our cities and their tentative build queues for the next 10-20 turns:

Legopolis - fully equipped; shall focus on 2t arty, while growing as fast as possible. In order to optimize the city output, we'll work 5 hills, 1 mined bonus grass, 1 mined regular grass, and 1 irrigated desert - this will bring the city output to exactly 40spt (we may be able to drop the desert after growing to pop 13, getting an extra shield in the city tile). Everything else (i.e. the two new tiles being currently cleared and grasses W, S, S-SW, S-SE, & E-SE) shall be irrigated to maximize the city growth. We shall add no workers to Legopolis, as the city will grow enough by itself - plus, the added workers would only increase the commerce/research output, not the shield output.

Jackson - after finishing the hospital in 1050AD, we'll need a harbour here (2t build, finished in 1070AD). Unfortunately, even with its shield production maxxed out, Jackson shall be few shields short of the optimal 60spt output needed for 2t destroyers & 3t carriers - it would only be suitable for building 2t submarines & 4t battleships. Jackson will never be able to build a hydro plant anyway, so I would strongly consider building a coal plant here. It will bring Jackson to 70+spt, allowing 2t destroyers/submarines and 3t carriers/battleships. If we go for the coal plant, we shall finish it in 1100AD, moving on to building navy on that very turn. While not really needing any, Jackson might have a couple of workers joined, as its own growth will be very limited.

Farmerville - for the forseeable future, I believe that our mighty 1t worker pump is just golden. No changes planned here.

Panama - finishing its hospital this turn (1040AD), Panama shall be fully equipped with all meaningful city improvements. With 45spt at pop 13, we will be able to use the city for 2t arty, 2t infantry, and 3t destroyers. I'd start with 3 arty pieces, moving on to infantry once Red Bricks take the arty production over.

Red Bricks - after finishing its hospital build in 1060AD, we will have one last useful city improvement to build here, a stock exchange (I think it's worth those 5t here, because of the extremely high commerce base of Red Bricks). Afterwards (from 1100AD on), R.B. shall be an ideal arty production center (40+spt, no barracks). R.B. will be a prime airforce production center once it grows just a little bit (and we acquire the tech). It's worth mentioning that after we cut all the remaining jungle down, mine it, grow the city to pop 20, and build a hydro plant there, it's very likely R.B. will be producing 80spt (1t fighters, 1t arty).

Forkmouth - after finishing the cathedral this turn (1040AD), there will be only 2 city improvements missing here, a stock exchange and hospital. We plan to keep our tax rate mostly low (around 30%), which means a stock exchange would increase the tax by some 3gpt only. I would say we can leave it for later. Hospital is a bit different story, but with all land tiles being worked already and the city growth rate minimal to none... I suggest 2 ironclads (till 1080AD) finishing the WNS rebuild, then a hospital (1120AD), and then artillery/navy all the way (ideal 2t arty, 3t destroyers, and 5t battleships).

Karina - after finishing its hospital this turn (1040AD), the city is going to be fully equipped. Shall focus on building infantry, while growing as fast as possible (by irrigating the grasslands SW and later W of the city, we will have a 45spt production centre with +6 to +8fpt). A new infantry unit every 2t. No workers to be added, as Karina has its own fine growth potential plus not that many free tiles to work...

Zargonia - after finishing the hospital in 1050AD, the city will be missing university & stock exchange. While I believe we will be able to do without the stock exchange for some time, the university is a must (to be finished in 1090AD). Afterwards, Zargonia can be used for all kinds of military/naval builds - 2t arty, 2t infantry, 3t destroyers... however, should we choose to build naval units here, I'd suggest a coal plant, since the situation in Zargonia is pretty much the same as in Jackson - a coal plant would bring the city to 70+spt, cutting production times significantly for all naval units.

Dye Fields - a fully equipped city already. After finishing its current build (an ironclad completing the ironcladisation of ENS) in 1050AD, I'd suggest 2-3 arty pieces, then navy (or barracks & infantry, depending on the situation). Again, as with Jackson and Zargonia, a coal plant here would be reasonable, if going for navy, as it would bring the city from ~50spt to 60+spt.

Sandonorico - a very "slow" and so far useless city... which is not going to change in the near future. Very low shield potential, so even the basic builds take forever - after finishing the temple, we will have to do an aqueduct here. This is one of the cities we should disband our obsolete rifles in - every disbanded rifle is worth like 3-4t off a production time. This city will not contribute to the country in a way worth mentioning.

Logville - currently building a cathedral (to be finished in 1060AD), planning to move on to a hospital afterwards (to be finished in 1110AD), growing back to pop 12 in the meantime. Logville is going to stay under 40spt unless we mine both irrigated tiles, stopping the city growth - which I would suggest to after completing the hospital. We shall add a number of workers then and focus on builds costing multiples of 40S (arty, destroyers, battleships).

Sharpehaven - after finishing the uni in 1050AD, the city will be missing harbour, stock exchange, and hospital. I guess we can do without a stock exchange here for a couple of turns and the harbour will only be needed after building a hospital & growing to pop 13. I thus suggest we make good use of the 45spt we can generate here (working the mountain instead of coast) and set S'haven to 2t infantry builds.

Oasis - the current factory build (to be finished in 1080AD) shall be followed by a university, cathedral, hospital, and stock exchange. Should be left on infra until fully equipped, as it has some decent commercial potential, while having only a so-so shield potential (it will be under 40spt even with a factory and pop 12).

Tarzania - currently building its last city improvement, a cathedral (to be finished in 1070AD). Afterwards, the city will be available for military production - 2t infantries or arty pieces. Despite high corruption & waste, I would skip police station for now, as savings would make no difference in production times anyway, we'd only be paying maintenance. A coal plant does not seem to be needed either, as Tarzania should be able to generate 45spt as it is (just needs few more pop points to work all available tiles).

Camp David - well, what do you think... it's a camp... 5t infantries all the way.

Kloreepville - after spitting out one last ironclad (to be finished in 1050AD), K'ville will be missing a uni and stock exchange. We should be able to do without a stock exchange, but the uni is a must (to be finished in 1090AD, maybe already in 1080AD). I'd suggest a coal plant here then (same reasoning as with Jackson and Zargonia - brings the city to 60+spt) and naval production - 2t destroyers/submarines, 3t battleships/carriers. Kloreepville will most likely have some workers joined, so that it can neglect growth and focus on production.

Invoice - the way I see it, 2t workers are way more useful than anything else this city could do for us. Let's keep it at 2t workers.

Ahhmyfoot - after finishing the cathedral (1070AD), we should do a uni in 4t here (borrowing the bonus grass from Abilene and disbanding 1 rifle here). Arty (returning the bonus grass to Abilene) or infantry (keeping it) afterwards. The city will be missing a stock exchange (not a priority ATM) and hospital (not really needed - the city is already working almost all available tiles in its radius).

Crossing - currently finishing its marketplace (1040AD), the city shall remain on infra for some time - built most of our Eastern ironclads, so let it spend some time on itself now. The marketplace should be followed by an aqueduct, factory, cathedral, university...

Tiberium - after finishing its cathedral in 1060AD, the city will still be missing some fine improvements: hospital, bank, & university. With a less than stellar shield output of about 30spt, I'd leave Tiberium on infra at least until finishing these (in the given order).

Quanto Mechanico - after finishing its current factory build in 1060AD, Q.M. shall become one of our best production centres, with close to 50spt. I'd follow with a cathedral (4t), uni (5t), hospital (4t), coal plant (4t; see Jackson, Zargonia, & K'ville for the reasoning), and eventually navy. Which, however, means that for the foreseeable future (almost 20t), Q.M. is not going to contribute to our military/naval production at all.

Abilene - after finishing its factory in 1050AD, Abilene will still be missing a number of rather basic city improvements: harbour (2t; not needed before hospital, though), cathedral (4t), bank (4t), and university (5t). Then a hospital (4t). I'd suggest we leave the city on infra until fully equipped - we seem to have enough cities available for military/naval production.

Horsefish - still a number of turns to completing its factory build; pretty much the same as with Abilene.

Castlea - lousy shield output, should stay on slow infra probably forever

Tipperary - factory, uni, bank... infra all the way, the spt output of the city is too low to make any real contribution to our military/naval production.

Nou Camp - yeah, you guessed it... 5t infantries with 1t workers inbetween.

Port Hammer - lousy shield output, should stay on slow infra probably forever

[vondrack]

Now, let's look at the summary from a bit different perspective:

Artillery (updated as of 1080AD)

Legopolis: 1 arty/turn from 1140AD to 1150AD
Panama: 0,5 arty/turn till 1100AD
Red Bricks: 0,5 arty/turn starting from 1110AD
Dye Fields: 0,5 arty/turn till 1170AD
Logville: 0,5 arty/turns starting from 1100AD
Sharpehaven: 0,5 arty/turn

units finished:

1080AD - 9 pieces in service
1090AD - 2 (D.F., S'h)
1100AD - 1 (Pana)
1110AD - 2 (D.F., S'h)
1120AD - 2 (R.B., Log)
1130AD - 2 (D.F., S'h)
1140AD - 2 (R.B., Log)
1150AD - 3 (D.F., Leg, S'h)
1160AD - 3 (Leg, Log, R.B.)
1170AD - 2 (D.F., S'h)
1180AD - 1 (Log)
1190AD - 1 (S'h)

That's 30 pieces altogether. Means we shall have 30 arty pieces by 1190AD, 11t from now (1080AD). Once at 30 arty pieces, I'd only set 1-2 non-barracked cities to keep building more, depending on the situation.

Infantry (updated as of 1080AD)

Panama: 0,5 infantry/turn from 1090AD to 1160AD
Karina: 0,5 infantry/turn till 1160AD
Tarzania: 0,5 infantry/turn
Camp David: 0,2 infantry/turn starting from 1030AD
Ahhmyfoot: 0,5 infantry/turn starting from 1110AD
Nou Camp: 0,167 infantry/turn starting from 1000AD

units finished:

1080AD - 11 units in service
1090AD - 2 (C.D., Tar)
1100AD - 1 (Kari)
1110AD - 1 (Tar)
1120AD - 3 (Kari, Pana, Ahh)
1130AD - 2 (N.C., Tar)
1140AD - 3 (Kari, Pana, Ahh)
1150AD - 1 (C.D., Tar)
1160AD - 3 (Kari, Pana, Ahh)
1170AD - 1 (Tar)
1180AD - 1 (Ahh)

That's 29 infantry units total by 1180AD, which means half of our defenders modernized within 10t from now (1080AD). I am putting emphasis on artillery here, as rifle upgrades are quite cheap (20g/unit) - we can afford to upgrade ALL of our rifles any time without actually going under 1000g in bank. Cannon upgrades are way more expensive, at 80g/unit.

Depending on the situation in 1180AD, we may either (if everything is calm and we do prefer saving gold) finish the rifle-to-infantry upgrades in this way or simply upgrade the rest for about 500g.

Navy (updated as of 1080AD)

Jackson: 1/3 battleship/turn starting from 1100AD
Panama: 1/2 DD/turn starting from 1210AD
Kloreepville: 1/2 DD/turn starting from 1120AD
Dye Fields: 1/2 DD or sub/turn starting from 1200AD
Zargonia: 1/2 DD/turn starting from 1090AD
--------: 1/3 carrier/turn starting from 1210AD
Forkmouth: DD in 1090AD, ironclad in 1110AD
---------: 1/2 sub/turn starting from 1200AD
Horsefish: 1/3 sub/turn starting from 1110AD
Logville: 1/2 sub/turn starting from 1240AD

destroyers finished:

1090AD - 1 (F'm)
1100AD - 1 (Zar)
1110AD - 0
1120AD - 1 (Zar)
1130AD - 1 (K'v)
1140AD - 1 (Zar)
1150AD - 1 (K'v)
1160AD - 1 (Zar)
1170AD - 1 (K'v)
1180AD - 1 (Zar)
1190AD - 1 (K'v)
1200AD - 1 (Zar)
1210AD - 2 (D.F., K'v)
1220AD - 1 (Pana)
1230AD - 2 (D.F., K'v)
1240AD - 1 (Pana)
1250AD - 2 (D.F., K'v)

This would be 19 DDs - not sure we will not go that far... OTOH, it's 10 DDs per theater (Western/Easter Ocean). Assuming two task forces per theater, that's 5 DDs per TF - and that sounds just about right.

battleships finished:

1130AD - 1 (Jack)
1160AD - 1 (Jack)
1190AD - 1 (Jack)
1220AD - 1 (Jack)
1250AD - 1 (Jack)

Approximately 1 BS per task force. Less than what I'd like to see (2 per TF), but we do not really have anywhere to build them...

submarines finished:

1140AD - 1 (Horse)
1150AD - 0
1160AD - 0
1170AD - 1 (Horse)
1180AD - 0
1190AD - 0
1200AD - 1 (Horse)
1210AD - 0
1220AD - 1 (F'm)
1230AD - 1 (Horse)
1240AD - 1 (F'm)
1250AD - 1 (Log)

This sounds just about right... from 1240AD onwards, Logville will take over, relieving Horsefish of the submarine production duties.

carriers

3t carriers will be coming from Zargonia (first one to be finished in 1240AD), being equipped with bombers from Legopolis and fighters from Red Bricks.