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**Tiberius** · February 5, 2003, 04:10

Re: Production Proposals, 1910+

Originally posted by ZargonX
(or is that 1910-...)

Jackson: Finish Num. Merc., then commence placeholder building for wonder. I would use palace to begin with, so as to not alert any other teams that we are going for a wonder.

Agree

Panama: Finish Merc.
-Build worker
-Build galley. This is conditional on the fact that the western lands may have some good areas to settle. A ship would get settlers there much quicker. If this proves untrue, we may still need the galley to explore off the west coastal lands.
-Settler (dependant on above issues...)

I agree, with the exception of the settler. Panama is growing too slowly to build settler, while at a size of 4 or 5 ih has a great potential to build units (after barracks) or a wonder.

Farmerville: Settler (for Forkmouth)
-Settler (For southern settlement)
-Worker (to begin roading)
-Settler, ad nauseum

OK

RedBrick: Finish worker
-Escort unit (warriors are quicker, but Mercs would be better.)
-Escort unit
-Worker (to assist in deforesting)
-Escort unit or barracks (I feel at least one city should soon have the capability to produce veteran units)

After the first worker, I'd build another one. This is top priority for RedBricks; they must clear the jungle ASAP, otherwise they won't be able to build anything in a reasonable period.
So IMHO:
- finish worker, worker

Legopolis: Finish granary
-Settler
-Settler
-city improvement (My lean would be towards a library or a temple (I know, I know, I'm a culture lover

))

NO, no no! Let Legopolis grow. After the granary, a mercenary and only after that a settler.
Legopolis is very well suited to build mercenary-settler pairs; run a sim to see how well it works (see my previous table with the granary test).

**vondrack** · February 5, 2003, 04:44

Re: Production Proposals, 1910+

Originally posted by ZargonX
Jackson: Finish Num. Merc., then commence placeholder building for wonder. I would use palace to begin with, so as to not alert any other teams that we are going for a wonder.

Agreed.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Panama: Finish Merc.
-Build worker
-Build galley. This is conditional on the fact that the western lands may have some good areas to settle. A ship would get settlers there much quicker. If this proves untrue, we may still need the galley to explore off the west coastal lands.
-Settler (dependant on above issues...)

This I am not sure about... are we sure we need yet another worker in the Panama area so soon? I thought Leopold was going to take care of the most urgent matters... I would prefer building a galley first, using a Merc as a placeholder (galley will take 10 turns to build - considering three more turns we now need to finish the Merc, I believe we would get a galley immediately after discovering Map Making). An early galley would be, IMHO, more of a value to us than an early worker.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Farmerville: Settler (for Forkmouth)
-Settler (For southern settlement)
-Worker (to begin roading)
-Settler, ad nauseum

I believe we will have to build a worker in Farmerville first. We currently cannot afford to have Farmerville at pop 3 because of the post-rush sentiment (the archer alone would not be enough to calm 3 citizens). The only unit we could use to strengthen our MP there is Merced in Red Bricks... and I do not think I would be happy to move him to Farmerville, leaving Red Bricks undefended - there is too much dark space to the East and West of R.B. So, I'd suggest a worker first (5 turns, just enough to counter the pop growth), then an endless flow of settlers - the next pop growth will be 20 turns after the rush anyway, when the effect of that unfortunate incident shall wear off...

Originally posted by ZargonX
RedBrick: Finish worker
-Escort unit (warriors are quicker, but Mercs would be better.)
-Escort unit
-Worker (to assist in deforesting)
-Escort unit or barracks (I feel at least one city should soon have the capability to produce veteran units)

I agree with Tibi - I would build another worker there. Two workers should be enough to start developing the city radius efficiently and fast enough. As for future production... I may surprise you, but I would probably go for a Temple to increase the city radius - there is quite some bit of fine land in its outer ring (three grassland tiles). I would not use Red Bricks to build military units... the shield potential is too low at the moment, IMHO. OTOH, I do agree that one of our cities could use barracks... however, my choice would be Panama. Panama grows too slowly to be an efficient settler/worker producer, so let it grow, rarely or never depleting its population, and make it our production powerhouse.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Legopolis: Finish granary
-Settler
-Settler
-city improvement (My lean would be towards a library or a temple (I know, I know, I'm a culture lover

))

I agree with Tibi on this one, too - his sim showed quite nicely that having Legopolis operating at pop 3/4 is very efficient. The main difference compared to a lower pop operation is that it is not only able to provide a steady supply of settlers, but their escorts, too. I am for starting a long line of Merc+Settler pairs.

**Tiberius** · February 5, 2003, 06:24

I think I've said this already a few times, but just to be clear:

As a Military Architect, I demand

barracks in at least one of our cities. Preferably in a city that will be assigned to build most of our units. I'm not saying that right now, but in the near future. Good candidates are Legopolis or Panama (and later Jackson). Please take this into considerations when planning future production orders.

**ZargonX** · February 5, 2003, 13:20

agree with Tibi - I would build another worker there. Two workers should be enough to start developing the city radius efficiently and fast enough. As for future production... I may surprise you, but I would probably go for a Temple to increase the city radius - there is quite some bit of fine land in its outer ring (three grassland tiles).

I am shocked!

Here I thought I was the only pro-Temple party around. In that case, I would gladly support another worker, followed by a temple.

My thoughts on delaying the worker, by the by, were that we could use the straight forest tiles for a while for the production boost, pump out a few escorts, and then chop the forest down.

This I am not sure about... are we sure we need yet another worker in the Panama area so soon? I thought Leopold was going to take care of the most urgent matters...

The reason for building the worker there was to get it out while the city was still small. The new worker could be used to begin jungle clearing along the Panama-Legopolis highroad. I also consider the galley a high priority.

**Tiberius** · February 5, 2003, 15:59

I am very pro temple

, but since we agreed to REX, we might delay them a bit. However, on a case to case basis, we could start building them.

**Tiberius** · February 9, 2003, 09:25

One more settler

Seeing all the latest contacts with other teams, many of them knowing already that we have a continent on our own, while 4 of them are crowded on the same landmass, I was thinking that maybe we should build yet another settler in Jackson before the wonder.

If the tension on the crowded continent will erupt into war, we are safe, 'cause no one will have the resources to come here and land with settlers. However, if they all agree to cooperate and rather than fighting they will try to reach us with coordinated suicidal galleys, we may be in trouble. There are still a lot of free land and we don't have the military power to push them away. This is why I was thinking that one more settler from Jackson would be wellcomed. Only one. I doubt very much that any team would try to build a wonder soon, but many of them seem to be close to map making and consequently to galleys and sea exploration.

What do you think?

**vondrack** · February 9, 2003, 12:14

let's go straight for the wonder

I would go straight for the wonder and build no more settlers in Jackson. Trying to reach us with suicidal galleys is out of question, IMHO - others would be risking too much: settlers, military units, unreliable military reinforcements, extra high corruption... Even if they are crowded over there, nobody will try settling our landmass unless he builds the Great Lighthouse. Plus, the crowded teams quite apparently don't trust one another (unless RPers lie to us).

Besides - don't forget, we have almost no intelligence on Gathering Storm and Voxes. Those two teams are quiet and especially GS is likely to use surprising tactics. They may very well already be considering a wonder build.

Legopolis, Farmerville, and later Forkmouth will be very good settler farms. I would stick to the original plan and go for a wonder in Jackson (which one, remains to be seen).

**ZargonX** · February 9, 2003, 21:59

I would also be against another settler in Jackson. Even should another team manage to somehow reach us with a suicide galley, they would have an untenable position trying to hold a city on our island. I think we are fairly safe through the age of galleys.

**lmtoops** · February 9, 2003, 23:50

I don't see a benefit for any of the other civs to plant a city on our continent. I can see them sending out galleys for contact. Of course we still can't trade for a few hunderd years. So even that has limited benefit.

Let's stick with the original plan.

**Tiberius** · February 10, 2003, 03:17

Think a bit what other civs might think or know about us:

They know that we are alone on our own continent, and they can assume that it is big enough for more than one civ. They think that we are peaceful and don't emphase on the military, thus we wouldn't start a war because of foreigners landing on our continent. They may be also quite desperate about the lack of space to expend on their own land. Even because of corruption they won't expect much early on from a distant city, they may hope to maintain peace with us, grab land for more cities and later launch an attack, get a leader and build a FP on our landmass.

Does this sound to you so very improbable?

I'm not pushing it, just making a point.

**ZargonX** · February 10, 2003, 03:51

I see your point, Tiberius, but I don't think the danger is that severe. Anyone who manages to even get a galley to our landmass at this point will have done so purely by luck. And with things that tight on the mainland, I don't think they'd be willing to sink the resources into sending a potentially suicidal galley with a settler or two off into the long dark of the oceans. So, basically, what I'm saying, is I think by the time anyone could get to our island solidly, we'll have most of the land settled, irregardless of whether we use Jackson or not.

edit: sometimes I should try to string sentences together in a way that makes sense...

**ZargonX** · February 10, 2003, 03:56

On a side note, we may want to start mulling what sort of diplomatic action we'll take the first time somebody pulls up to the island. At that point, they'll still have no idea how large a landmass it is, and we should keep it that way as long as possible. I would be for posting several military units around the southern end of the island until we get cities there, so if somebody sails up by sheer chance (an empty suicide galley, or something) it will send the message that it is our land. Depending on how stern we want to be, we could announce that any settlement attempts on our lands will be regarded as an act of war. Though, at the same time, we don't want people to gang up on us if they think we're too powerful. Perhaps bribing people to not land, if they are really determined...

Anyway, just food for future thought.

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