Do we want to try for the Great Library?

[delmar]

Jackson is not next to a river so realistically 6 pop is max right now. And I suspect that 5 would do just as fine, ie. we wouldn't need a temple. Temple costs 60 shields, +1 pop generates +2 shields if we are lucky -> you would need that +1 pop for 30+ turns to bring in the cost of the temple. Plus you would need to improve one more tile and mining the hills is not a pleasure even with industrious workers.

Or did I miss something?

[Tiberius]

Yes, the pleasure of building a temple.

[Tiberius]

The production of Jackson:
size	production	waste	real output
3	7	1	6
4	9	1	8
5	11	2	9
6	13	2	11

Working at full capacity, the difference between a size 5 and size 6 Jackson is:
- 4 turns for the Collossus
- 6 turns for the Great Lighthouse
- 8 turns for the Great Library

If we build now a temple, then the Lighthouse, it will be ready in ~ 1010 BC (~ 44 turns from now). After that, Jackson would finish the Collossus in 19 turns.

If we start the Lighthouse now (with a placeholder) it will be ready with ~ 5 turns earlier.

Btw, Jackson doesn't need that northern hill. It has a cattle, 3 bonus grasslands and 2 hills to SE (so a total of 6 workable tiles; furthermore, mined hills give 2 shields in despotism, just like mined bonus grasslands).

One more thing: we can fight against the unhappiness caused by the 6th citizen with a second unit in Jackson, instead of building a temple. Or we can build a temple in Legopolis to let its borders expand quicker and then build a road on the closest dye.

formatted by vondrack's SmartFormat 1.0 (previously everyCR_remover 0.99ß) to make Tibi happy

Edited by Tiberius to correct a stupid typo. The table is finally OK, thanks to Radek

[Tiberius]

WTF is wrong with my table ?? Why do I have that huge space before it?

Edited: Now what? Following Kloreep's advice, I eliminated any carriage return from the beginning, and the table is still there. BAH!

[Kloreep]

Hmm... if we only need two garrison units, Jackson could start on a wonder pretty quickly. We could use a warrior (I'm always pushing for those guys ) and a Merc to keep happiness at size six. Jackson could jump right in to the Palace in a matter of turns if we want.
Of course, a temple and/or granary first would be nice; we could skip the warrior with a temple.

Re table: Happens to me, too. I think that while the forum uses the HTML correctly, any carriage returns to make that code more readable counts as a space before the table proper.

[vondrack]

Oops, I had my math wrong... that's what happens when I make no notes and do everything in my mind only. Somehow, I assumed pop 7 (thus, 15 shield output), even though pop 6 is the ceiling for Jackson. Yes, everybody is correct, we do not need a temple in Jackson, two garrison units will do.

So then, let's finish the settler and go for a wonder! But I would suggest using as many prebuilds as possible, to keep others from knowing we've decided to go for a GW (I mean, let's keep building prebuilds that do not show in the F7 screen as long as possible).

[lmtoops]

Oh yes, an excellent point. We must use the pre-builds.

[Tiberius]

Thanks for the table

Just for the record, I'd still like to start building soon some temples. We are supposed to be a culture powerhouse ... Maybe in Legopolis, to make expand its cultural borders faster, to cover the luxuries.

Btw, interesting is that even though building the temple lasts (if we start it now) ~ 12 turns, the wonder would be ready with only 5 turns earlier, not 12.

More: in my simulation, I've built in Legopolis a granary after the current merc, then a worker, and after that kept building merc+settler pairs (and a temple at some point). It worked quite well.

Also Farmerville is doing fine building only settlers. It grows to 4, builds a settler, grows to 4, builds a settler, etc.

[delmar]

So what's the conclusion? Will we start a wonder placeholder in Jackson right away? Or we build a settler first (that's something I wouldn't do for sure, but I might be missing something)? Or will we have a poll about this?

Btw, are we sure about this:

One more thing: we can fight against the unhappiness caused by the 6th citizen with a second unit in Jackson, instead of building a temple.

What level are we playing on? I thought that 2 units + 1 luxury will be necessary even with pop 5.

[delmar]

Originally posted by vondrack
But I would suggest using as many prebuilds as possible, to keep others from knowing we've decided to go for a GW (I mean, let's keep building prebuilds that do not show in the F7 screen as long as possible).

Exactly. I had a MP game where I drove crazy the others with this, they thought I had a Great Leader for every wonder...

[Sharpe]

I am still not sure that we should start building a wonder immediately. Even after founding Panama next turn we still only have 4 cities. I would wait until we have at least 6 before we even consider starting a wonder. Our main priority IMHO, aside from contacting the other civs, should remain to colonize as much of this continent as fast as possible.

[delmar]

Then perhaps we should have a poll. I almost created one but I realized that I have no idea how happiness works, so I for one don't have enough information to actually vote on this (mainly whether we should build a temple or not). Anyone has a pointer to a good document (thread) describing this?

In case you think it's trivial, please PM me with an explanation as to why I have 2 happy faces in a pop 5 city, at Monarch level, with 1 type of luxury (2 piece of it), palace+barracks+granary in the city, 0% on entertainment, no entertainers, no military police.

Even though I am apparently clueless on this topic, I thought I would mention that (according to the message that comes up when I open the SAV file) we are playing at Regent level, which IMHO means that the 3rd citizen will be unhappy, ie. my estimate is that a pop 5 city with 2 military police and 1 type of luxury (without temple) will have 1 happy, 3 content and 1 unhappy citizens and would go to disorder if we had a 6th citizen in there without a temple. As we can see from the above example, this is not generally true, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Tiberius]

Delmar, did you hear about the "PBEM always on chieftan" bug? The game was started on regent, but it is surely not regent, because at some point there were 3 pops in Legopolis without any unit in it and it wasn't in disorder. So most probably it is the chieftan bug.

[vondrack]

Yep, Tibi is correct, the game is lower than Regent due to the known bug, that is for sure. Although I can't be 100% sure it's Chieftain, I would bet my monthly income on that. We will be able to make sure once any of our cities reach pop 4. Thus, a pop 6 city (wonder-building Jackson) will be 4 contents plus 2 unhappies needing two MPs to become content. We should be able to do even without a luxury.

I would suggest finishing the settler in Jackson first. Sharpe is right that our priority #1 is expansion. Thanks to the Farmerville free settler, we are now on par with ND, I believe, and with Panama, we will take the lead. It is important we maintain the lead as long as we have room to expand to.

However, after finishing the settler in Jackson, I would no longer build any pop-depleting units there, aiming for pop 6 ASAP. I would probably build a Merc prior to starting the wonder prebuild, just to have Jackson take care of itself and not require other cities to help it with garrison units. Until it hits a higher pop, it doesn't matter that much if we start right now or in 10 turns, as the actual time difference in finishing the wonder will be minimal, because of the low shield output in the early turns of building. Besides, I'm quite sure we are the very first team to even consider a wonder that early in the game.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
Besides, I'm quite sure we are the very first team to even consider a wonder that early in the game.

And that pleases me mightily