1st Constitutional Congress

[Kloreep]

Nice work guys. Jack_www (or ZargonX), could you outline the differences between your drafts? (I'm too lazy to find them myself. )

I have some comments on your version, Jack_www:

On senators: the team is the senate. Why require a certain number of posts? I might be in danger of failing this requirement, as I won't have PTW at the start of the game. But I think I can honestly determine whether or not to recuse myself, and I think every member should do the same.

If we set a max cap, we will have to worry about when and how to kick truly inactive (in other words, gone) members. But that's an if; and if we do, I think we should have a specific thread every other week or so for citizens to say "here" or some such, so they don't have to go find a thread to spam.

On other post requirements in general: I also don't see the point of requiring posts of governmental candidates; on the other hand, I hope anyone with enough interest to run for office would meet these requirements.

On the judiciary: currently, our team is small enough that I hope major issues can be settled out of court. That said, we do need one just in case. The SP game has had several cases go to trial (the court must agree to hear a case), two of which have been major.

But why tie up members with what will hopefully be a minor branch of government? I think we should operate in more of an open jury system.

Here's a rough idea: one Judge somehow takes office (appointment, election, whatever). This Judge will decide whether cases have enough merit to be heard. (Perhaps the Prez and VP can form a triad to vote on this part of the process.)

Any citizens interested in judging cases may sign on for jury duty. A certain number from this pool (perhaps 4) who had signed up prior to the case in question would be randomly selected to hear any case brought to trial.

I know this system sounds like it might become corrupted, but I think we're small enough we can avoid that. The random selection, and signing on before a case, would hopefully avoid having a slew of opinionated jurists.

What do you think?

[Jack_www]

Kloreep I added the post stuff so that everyone who has a position in government is also active in team. I want everyone to participate. Remember too just a draft, so dont worry nothing finally yet.

So for jury system you sugest. Maybe, I dont know. I want to see what other people think. Since we need at least 2/3 at least to agree to this consitution.

So for the court I can see two proposals, one is we have a commitee of Judges, and anther is having jury trail.

Also too I want to have fun with this. Even if it is minor, it lets people have some fun. So keep that in mind everyone. I want everyone in team to be able to have some position in the government.

Also I just added more stuff into the first draft that was made.

[Jack_www]

Second Draft:

Preamble:
We the people of Legoland seek to better the world around them through the development of our lands and the growth of our sciences. We are a peaceful people, but not a passive one. Our lands will be defended at any cost, and our troops are willing and able to march forth against any enemy that deigns to threaten us. The world can be a better place, and it is our job to make it so. In order to reach this goal we the people of Legoland here by form the government that willl rule the Legoland team.

Article I, Section I:

Executive Branch
The qualifications to be President of the Legoland team:
He/she must have PTW, so as to be able to play the game.
He/she must be an active member of the legoland team.
(Posting every 3 days)
The duties of the President:
He/she is the one who will acually play the game for the team according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate.
When the wishes of the Ministers and Senate are unclear or do not come to the President in time, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.
The President can veto any treaties or laws passed by Senate.
The President is the Head of State, meaning the foreign minister reports to him, and can not make deals with out the President and Senate approval.
Also if on one is holding the Vice President or any minister spot, then the President can appoint a new one to that spot, who will serve untill the next election.

Section II:
Vice President:
Must be able to serve as President any at time.
He steps in when President cannot play the game.

Section III:
Ministers:
The qualifications to be a Minester or Ambassidor of the Legoland team:
They must be an active member of Legoland team.
(Post every week)
There are five minesters in Executive Branch:

-The Labor Minister (Head Engineer)
-The Interior Minister (Master Builder)
-The Defense Minister (Military Architecht)
-The Budget/Science Minister (The Enlightened)
-The Foreign Minister (TBD)
-The Head Engineer (HE) shall be responsible for movement of all workers and the improvement of lands.
-The Master Builder (MB) shall be responsible for planning of city production, as well as selecting suitable sites for new cities.
-The Military Architecht (MA) shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term strategic plans.
-The Budget/Science Minister (TE) shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting future courses of research.
-The Foreign Minister shall coordinate information from all ambassadors and keep track of treaties, etc.

Section IV:
Ambassidors:
They deal directly with all other teams in the game.
They are primary ones who talk and negoicate deals with other teams. Allthough the President can also do this when he feels it is very improtant matter.
They report directly to the Foreign Minister.

Article II, Section I:
Senate:
Qualifications for Senators:
They must be active members of Legoland team, Posting every ten days.
Everyone is member of Senate, expect the President, Vice President and Justices of Court.

Section II:
Powers of Senate:
They can remove any minister, the President, Vice President, or Justices of Court if they find they have been on a consistent basis ingoring the wishes of the Senate and or Minsiters, or if the if that person has become inactive for 2 weeks, or has broken treaties with anther team.
The Senate will have the power to declare war on anther team, and this power will always stay in Senate.
The Senate has power aprove or dissaprove treaties the President signs. Untill Senate aproves the treaty it is not binding on the Legoland team. Once the treaty is aproved it is the law of the land.
The Senate has power to aprove all apointments made by Senate, and the apointee can not take office untill the Senate aporves him or her to that office.
Also if their is a tie in the Election of and one to executive branch then the Senate will break the tie.

Article III: (open for ideas please, we need a lot here)
Judical Branch:
There will be Supreme Court of Legoland.
They will settle all dissputes with in the team.
They also have power to interept the Consitution of the Legoland team.

(Etheir we will have three judge planel that is apointed, or one Judge and a jury of Legoland team members.)

Article IV:
Amdening the Consitution:
Once a admendment is drafted it must be introduced to Senate. The Senate must aprove it be a two thrids vote. At least half the Senate must be present during vote. Once the Senate aproves the Admendment, the entire team votes on the Admendment and must have 3/4 votes to pass. At least half of the team must vote on the admendment.

[Tiberius]

Gosch! I must read this at home. Dont have the time to read it properly at work.

[ZargonX]

Hmm... how about this for the court?

Article III: Supreme Court
-The supreme court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the Pres. at the beginning of his term.
-Judges can either be retained or removed by an incoming, new Pres.
-If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial.
-The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle.
-Any case rejected by the court may be settled by the citizenry.

[Tiberius]

I'm sorry, I didn't have time to read it all, so I apologize if I say something that has been said already, but:

- the The Master Builder (Interior Minister) should also be responsible for keeping the citizens happy (if possible) and to take care that law and order are applied in all of Legoland's cities. (in cooperation with other ministers, when the situation requires it).

Explanation: he must do everything to reduce corruption, to increase productivity and to avoid civil disorders. Cooperation with other ministers: ask for luxury taxes from the Budget Minister, or troops from the Defense Minister, request road to luxuries, etc.

[Tiberius]

I must point out some inconsistencies in the second draft:

1. The President can veto any treaties or laws passed by Senate.

but

2. The Senate ... can remove any minister, the President, Vice President, or Justices of Court if they find they have been on a consistent basis ingoring the wishes of the Senate and or Ministers,
and The Senate has power aprove or dissaprove treaties the President signs.

Now, if the Senate remove the President who then veto their decision ...

My proposal:
1. The President can veto and send back any treaty or law passed by the Senate. The Senate must rediscuss it and vote again. If the treaty/law passes again with a majority vote of at least 75% of the senators, the President must obey and sign the treaty/law.

2. The Senate can remove any minister, the President, ... with a majority vote of 75% of the senators.
The Senate has power to approve or dissaprove treaties the President signs with a majority vote of 50% of the senators.

If you like the idea, feel free to reword it.

[Spiffor]

Sorry, Jack, but I disagree with your presidential vision of our constitution, as I'd prefer a senatorial democracy. I fear your draft gives way too much power to the prez :

- The prez decides when there is no order available. Very good, he's the one who must do it.

- The prez can veto any treaties or laws passed by the senate. Why ? How come the voice of one person can be more important than the voice of 20 ? Sorry, but this clause s a firm NO. I don't see how the team will profit from such an imperial clause.

- The prez' approval if needed for treaties, along with the senate's approval. Again, I don't see why the president should be bestowed so much power (an active veto power on any deal). For the same reason as before : why would one guy's opinion be more important than 20 ?

- The prez can deal directly with other teams when he feels it's important. Good, but he should do this only if the ambassador is unavailable. The ambassador position has been created to make a permanent and solid link to other teams. Having the president negociate on most important issues will show our rivals if they are deemed important or not. It will also reduce the importance of ambassadors, and partly demotivate them.

- The prez isn't member of the Senate, along with the VP and justices. I don't see why. We are a team, and everybody should have his say like anbody else. So, I say every member of the team without exception is a member of the senate, and gets to vote in all polls. It will be much more simple to keep track, and we won't fear the polls are rigged. Of course, you may disagree on this if you consider the Prez should be able to veto everything.

- If the senate disapproves a treaty signed by the prez, this treaty won't be binding. You can be sure to anger our partners if you betray a treaty "because the senate didn't vote it". Hence this clause is likely to ruin or reputation, or to have the senate always say "Yes" to the prez for fear of reputation loss.

Jack_www : sorry if I sound a little harsh, but this is a Democracy Game, and I don't think one player should have half the responsibility, otherwise the others will lose interest in the game.
I understand your views on the constitution are inspired by your country (I recognized many things coming from the US), but giving such power to the prez is useless in our 20-people Democracy, unlike in the 300-million-people American Democracy.
I'll write another draft representing a parliamentary view of the Democracy, which I think is much more adapted to our situation.

[Tiberius]

I'd change this section:

When the wishes of the Ministers and Senate are unclear or do not come to the President in time, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.

as follows:

When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.
The President has the power to veto the wishes of the Ministers. After such a veto the ministers can ask for a Senate approval. The Senate must listen what both sides (President and Ministers) have to say and then decide which of the 2 paths to follow. The Senate's decision is mandatory.

[Spiffor]

Draft to a parliamentary approach of our institutions. It's not very different from Jack_www's draft, except that it slims down the power of the Prez, and boosts the power of the senate.

Preamble
We the people of Legoland seek to better the world around them through the development of our lands and the growth of our sciences. We are a peaceful people, but not a passive one. Our lands will be defended at any cost, and our troops are willing and able to march forth against any enemy that deigns to threaten us. The world can be a better place, and it is our job to make it so.

Article I : The executive branch

Section 1 : The President
- The President is eleceted every [TBA] by the members of the team.
- Only a member having PtW can run for presidence.
- The President physically plays the game, according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate
- When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.
- Should an ambassador be unable to negociate with another team, and the Foreign minister unavailable to take over him, the President must negociate directly with the other team.
- If an executive post becomes vacant, the President can appoint a member to that spot, who will serve untill the next election.

Section 2 : The Vice President
[debate : should the VP be elected or appointed by the Prez ? Since this position is rarely in use, I'm not sure an election is necessary]
- The Vice President replaces the President when he becomes unavailable.
- A member must have PtW to be allowed to become Vice President.

Section 3 : The ministers
- The ministers are elected by all members of the Legoland team every [TBA]
- There are 5 ministers : the Head Engineer, the Master Builder, the Military Architect, the Enlightened and the Foreign Minister (to be renamed)
- The Head Engineer shall be responsible for movement of all workers and the improvement of lands.
- The Master Builder shall be responsible for planning of city production, as well as selecting suitable sites for new cities. He is also responsible for keeping the citizens happy if possible, and to take care that law and order are applied in all of Legoland's cities.
- The Military Architecht shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term strategic plans.
- The Budget/Science Minister shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting future courses of research.
- The Foreign Minister shall coordinate information from all ambassadors and keep track of treaties, etc. He shall negociate whith other teams when the ambassadors are unavailable.

Section 4 : Amabassadors
(whether the embassadors are regularily elected, in place for life, appointed by the FAM or the Prez is still up to debate)
- Ambassadors deal directly with all other teams in the game.
- Ambassadors are primary ones who talk and negoicate deals with other teams.
- Ambassadors report directly to the Foreign Minister.


Article II : the Senate
- Every member of the Legoland team is a member of the Senate.
- Only the Senate can declare war to another country. (the needed majority is up to discussion. I say 50% : since we are builders, we'll be prudent about declaring war anyways)
- The Senate can issue any order that could be issued by a minister. Such an order requires an absolute majority (50%) to pass. This decision cannot be overruled by a member of the executive branch. This order is treated like a normal order by the President.
(I itilicized it because I feel it's the greatest difference between my draft and Jack_www's, along with the end of the veto power of the President. I'm aware it's debatable, that's why I bring this to your attention)
- The Senate can veto any decision coming from the Ministers or the President, with absolute majority. However, if such a decision has already been applied in the game, the veto has no effect.
- The Senate has power to approve or dissaprove treaties the President signs with a majority vote of 50% of the senators.
- The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President, or Justices of Court. This removal requires 66% of the senate to pass.

Article III : The Supreme Court
- The supreme court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the Pres. at the beginning of his term.
- Judges can either be retained or removed by an incoming, new Pres.
- If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial.
- The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle.
- Any case rejected by the court may be settled by the citizenry.

Article IV : Amending the Constitution
- The constitution may be amended if (debatable figure)% of the Senate favors a suggested amendment. At least half of the Senate must take part in the vote for the amendment to pass.

Edit : modified a bit with Tiberius' suggestions
2nd Edit : added ZargonX' ideas for the Supreme Court

[Spiffor]

Please do not take my critics too seriously : your draft is generally good, even if I disagree with the too big powers awarded to the Prez.
I just wanted to show more discussion is necessary before having a very satisfying constitution, and we shouldn't poll on this at once.

BTW, regarding amendments of the Constitution, I say they require the same majority as what the constitution needs to pass for the first time. If we want only 50% of the Legomen to adopt the constitution for the first time, we'd want 50% to amend it as well. Same for 66% or 75% majority.

[Tiberius]

Spiffor, did not find anything useful in my last 3 posts to include it in your draft?

[Spiffor]

Don't worry Tiberius, I was writing my draft in comparison to Jack_www's (and I couldn't read your latest posts while I was writing myself)
You have said intelligent things, I'll try to see how I can edit my draft
Edited my draft again, to include ZargonX' ideas regarding the court. I like them, because they are simple and precise enough IMHO.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Spiffor
You have said intelligent things,

OK, I feel better already

[Spiffor]

Done editing, but I didn't keep your paragraphs about presidential veto. Like I said, I'm against a presidential veto, because I strongly think the Prez' voice is as worthy as anyone else's, no more and no less.