Bach's Cathedral, Sistine's Chapel, or both?

[vondrack]

I know that Steve asked for postponing this debate for later, but I don't believe we have that much time to make our minds up regarding this issue (certainly less than 20 turns - 4 turns to Education and then whatever it will take us to research Astronomy... once having that researched, we will have to pick our next research goal, which - in case we go for the Bach's - would have to be the Music Theory, an otherwise useless tech), so we better not delay it too much. I'm carrying the discussion to a separate thread, since I believe this is a topic deserving one.

Just to know where it starts, I am including a copy of my post from the Next turn plans thread:

I may be missing something, but why was that urgent to rush the Cathedral in Legopolis? We have no-Sistine clauses with everybody except Spain, who we agreed that don't really have chances to build a wonder before us. The rush was quite expensive and I'm not sure that we couldn't have waited 2 or 3 more turns.

Edit: I know this is already too late for this question, so I expect an answer only to satisfy my curiosity.

The true reason for partially rushing the cathedral build in Legopolis is that we would like to build TWO wonders in Legopolis now - first, the Bach's Cathedral, second, the Sistine's Chapel. That will make us independent on the imported luxuries (and it is very likely that when the "assault at Fortress Legoland" happens, we will be lux-embargoed by everybody or almost everybody).

Thanks to our deals with other teams, the Sistine's is "almost safe" and can be (taking a reasonable risk) built later - the only team we will have to watch for wonder building activities will be Spain/RPers... and who knows, we may be able to get that clause later on...). RPers are definitely unable to beat us to the FIRST 600-shield wonder (which will probably be the Bach's for us). However, they might be able to beat us to the SECOND 600-shield wonder (which we assume will be the Sistine's for us), if they wanted to and tried hard. For this second wonder, we will need every single turn to be faster than them (if they really decide to go for the Sistine's, that is... which is unlikely, but not totally impossible).

Partially rushing the cathedral speeded up its completion by 3 turns. Legopolis will spend these three saved turns at pop 9, producing at least 20 shields per turn. That's at least 60 shields total - 10% of the total wonder shield cost. Considering we have no pressing need for gold, effectively "buying" 10% of the wonder for 232 gold sounds like a good deal.

Plus, this also means we will finish the happiness wonder 3 turns earlier - and since Bach's Cathedral makes two unhappy citizens content in every city, all our cities will be able to grow beyond pop ~6 these three turns earlier... which means further benefits, though their quantification would be difficult ATM.

The reason for building the Bach's Cathedral first is that it decreases the number of unhappy citizens in every city with no other prerequisites - unlike the Sistine's Chapel that needs a 160-shield cathedral to affect the city in question.

Personally, if we had to choose between the Sistine's and Bach's, I would prefer Bach's... though having both is what we should try VERY hard to get. With both of them, our cities with a temple and cathedral will be able to operate at pop 4+1+1+3+3+2=14! (base, dyes, temple, cathedral, Sistine's, Bach's). Add a colosseum, and it's 16. For most of our cities, this means working all fine tiles.

And here I am adding my comments to Steve's post:

Originally posted by Sharpe
No, I don't agree with this. We should get Sistine out of the way first, especially if RP is building it (yes I know we will beat them to it regardless).

Perhaps I didn't express myself properly in the other thread - not only that we KNOW (from the savegame analysis) that RPers are nowhere even remotely "close" to completing the Sistine's Chapel, but I strongly believe they are NOT prebuilding it AT ALL. And if all this ritual dancing around the "no Sistine clause" and all the talking about their prebuilds and plans are false, as we know for sure, then I believe it's just an attempt to extort us for as much as they can imagine. I do not believe they actually ever planned to build it... it's just another example of their "smart diplomacy".

Originally posted by Sharpe
As for Bach, I don't think we will get the chance to build it as I suspect some other team, especially one on Bob will try to get it first. As it is we are having to race RP for Sistine. If by some unusual situation RP does beat us to Sistine, then we can feel free to switch to Bach.

"Getting the chance" is relative. Unless we build the Sistine's first, I'm quite sure we will be able to build the Bach's almost uncontested. Only 2 other teams will get Education from us in the near future (we can safely delay others, as we have no pressing need for gold or other techs) - GS, which is recuperating from the war, goes for Banking. While we can't rule out the possibility of them trying to build Bach's, we will be in a very good position - if they beat us, we simply fall back to the Sistine's... OTOH, if we beat them, they cannot do the same because of the treaty they signed with us. The other team receiving Education is GoW - and they have agreed to waive Bach's in our favour.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Plus as I have been saying frequently the other civs will regard the building of Bach as fulfillment of the "no-Sistine clause". And most of all, the other civs WON'T allow us to have both happiness wonders. In the MP games that I have played (admittedly Civ 2), Bach and Michelangelo/Sistine Chapel were rarely built by the same civ and when they were, each time that civ was targeted for extermination by all the other civs.

Now this is an argument I refuse to accept. Our treaties are absolutely 100% clear and unambiguous - with the exception of RPers, we are granted the Sistine's Chapel by everybody (and Bach's by GoW). There is not a single word about this clause being voided by any other build. Another team claiming the fulfillment of the "no Sistine" clause through building the Bach's is simply dead wrong. It is totally unacceptable.

As for "the other civs WON'T allow us to have both happiness wonders" argument... well, that's pretty much like saying "the other civs WON'T allow us to win this game". It is not (and SHOULD not be) about what they allow us - it should be more about what we allow them. With the strength of our economy and our huge potential, we are one of the primary candidates for winning this game.

The Pyramids, our industriousness, commerciality, and the landmass we have at our disposal make us a target no matter how many happiness wonders we have. We are growing into a juggernaut and everybody can see that - topped only by GS at this moment. "Flying under the radar" is not a feasible strategy anymore - we WILL get attacked sooner or later and we better do our best to be prepared. The happiness wonders are important parts of our strategy, as they make our dependency on imported (read: embargoed during the war) luxuries minimal.

This is not to say that we should not trade our dyes for other luxuries - sure we shall! But trading for luxuries will be fine until the war breaks out - once it breaks out, I am almost sure we will be (openly or de facto) embargoed by everybody or almost everybody (even by teams that will not attack us with their troops). Simply because they'll want to see a strong team weakened - just like we sided with Vox in order to hamper GS' progress. This logic is cruel, but 100% understandable and correct.

Now, imagine what would happen to our fine-tuned economy if we lost 3-4 luxuries almost instantly... that's like 3-8 happy faces gone! We would have to spend a LOT of gold on keeping the cities in order, if they heavily relied on these luxuries. OTOH, if the only thing that happens after the luxembargo is put in effect is that most our cities drop from the WLT*D status and we'll have to use an entertainer in our 2-3 biggest cities, then we are fine...

Originally posted by Sharpe
Besides, there are other very necessary things we have to build aside from happiness wonders - as well we do have a monopoly on dyes that we can trade for other luxuries too.

I can see only two improvements that may make sense in Legopolis: University and Bank. Neither of these has an effect on our economy dramatic enough to balance the possible nation-wide benefits from the second happiness wonder. Besides, there is still a possibility of building the other happiness wonder somewhere else, not in Legopolis (though we're unlikely to have another site as productive as Legopolis within ~30 turns). We will have enough second level cities to keep our military on par with others (keep in mind that within ~20 turns, Karina will finish the Forbidden Palace, improving the usefulness of our non-core cities dramatically), so Legopolis will not be needed for building our military up.

The monopoly on dyes will help us a lot in the peace times, but will be utterly useless during a war - while the other teams can lose one luxury (dyes), we can lose up to 7 luxuries (all non-dyes), which makes luxembargo a very viable strategy.

I am going to add a couple more ideas and reasons in a new post.

[vondrack]

Bach's vs. Sistine's - utility comparison

As I stated in another thread (and in the post quoted in the beginning of this thread), I consider Bach's a better wonder than Sistine's for us. Why?

The Sistine's Chapel

The Sistine's Chapel doubles the effect of cathedrals. Since cathedrals add three content faces it means that the Chapel adds three more content faces - but only on condition the city has a cathedral. Without a cathedral in the city, it does nothing. A city must first build a cathedral to enjoy the benefits of the Chapel. That's 160 shields (and to build a cathedral, you need to build a 60-shield temple first). Now, say, Panama - it is a pretty decent city, but it will still take ~14 turns to build a cathedral there. That's a lot. And what about, say, Forkmouth? A decent site, but it would take 32 turns to build a cathedral there ATM... even after reaching the max pop and fully improving all the tiles there, it won't be less than ~20 turns. That's a lot. Plus, cathedrals cost 2gpt on upkeep.

If we wanted to fully benefit from the Sistine's Chapel, we would have to build a cathedral in every city of ours (24 of them planned for). That's 24*160=3840 shields (plus 600 shields for the Chapel itself). And 24*2=48 gpt upkeep. Whew...

Now, only 7 of all the cities existing or planned for have a river flowing by. That means the city either has to remain at pop 6 for the cathedral build (likely producing not more than 10 net shields, making the cathedral build a long term one) or has to build an aqueduct first (100 more shields... plus, the extra pop would need imported luxuries to remain content). This makes the benefit of the Sistine's Chapel quite "conditional". Especially for non-core cities, the benefit would be difficult to reap in time (read: before we have to fight our war).

The Bach's Cathedral

The Bach's Cathedral decreases the number of unhappy citizens on the same continent by two per city. In other words, it generates two content faces per city (only one less than the Sistine's). But: no prerequisites! Means the moment you finish Bach's, you can grow all your cities, no matter what, by two more citizens. And the cost? The same 600 shields to build the wonder plus 960 beakers to research the Music Theory.

Considering the huge commerce advantage we have over everybody but GS (which are, however, being drained by their military now), researching an extra tech sounds like a very reasonable deal to me. Compared to those thousands of shields needed to build cathedrals everywhere... or even in the biggest cities, for starters.

And one more thing: it may seem Bach's will do little for most cities without an aqueduct, since cities at pop 6 can operate just fine with only a temple and our dyes. But - at pop 6, with the Bach's Cathedral, all it takes to enter WLT*D is two imported luxuries (since the Bach's will get rid of the two unhappy citizens and the dyes and 2 imported luxuries will produce three happy faces, which is exactly what's needed for the WLT*D)! And that is quite imaginable in the peace times.

Time-related differences

As generally agreed in another thread, we will most likely be attacked during the age of Cavalry, before the railroads appear on the scene. The sooner, the worse for us. Now that moment is not that far away - I would estimate that to some 60-100 turns from now. That is certainly not enough to build cathedrals in all our cities, if we want to build something else there, too... ~20-30 turns per a cathedral build is about 1/3 to 1/5 of the total time available.

OTOH, at the very moment we finish Bach's, we can grow all our cities by two pop. All that could be needed would be aqueducts - but that'd apply for the Sistine's and cathedrals as well). So all our cities will be able to operate at a pop 2 points higher once the war breaks out. That's a HUGE difference!


So, that's why I consider going for Bach's first no matter what a better choice than building Sistine's first. Plus, there is only one more team allowed to go for Sistine's at the moment - all others agreed to let us build it. And RPers have some serious REX phase ahead of them (just look at the map)... not mentioning the fact that I believe they will soon be having a rendez-vous with a couple dozen Ansar Warriors coming from the North...

[vondrack]

The Happiness Wonders Combo - effects on our international relations

One important point raised against building both the happiness wonders is that other teams will then target us as a primary threat...

Now, let me first point out we have nowhere to hide. With the exception of GS, everybody else is hopelessly behind us: whether we have 1 or 2 happiness wonders, it makes little difference to how big a threat we look like to others overall. Waiving one of them will not make the others drop the idea of pruning us - and I personally consider it very unlikely that it would speed up their attack.

Actually - I think that building the Sistine's first would be more likely to speed the attack up, since other teams would be trying to strike before we'd be able to fully utilize the Sistine's (read: build cathedrals in our productive cities). With Bach's, however, they will have to assemble a larger invasion force, since we will gain an instant pop, shield, and commerce boost - they will have to face a stronger economy.

Now, let's discuss every team separately:

1) Vox will be happy with whatever we do, for obvious reasons.

2) GoW has already waived Bach's in our favour in the Theo+Edu for Chiv deal, so they are unlikely to be surprised - and unlikely to change their minds about us because of that. They already know we want both of these wonders. They will not see this as a "trick".

3) GS may frown upon the trick, but will have little choice. After annexing the Northern Estonia, their score and power will rise dramatically, making them look like THE primary threat to the Bobians - even more because it will be obvious GS will be lacking further room to expand into. GS themselves will be in no position to attack us on their own, because of the distance and because of the fact they would expose their homeland to an attack from Bob. If GS attacked us, I'm quite sure it would be us able to rally others to aid our cause, not GS - as GS will still be or look like a stronger power than us. Besides - as shown by the analysis, GS is our only competitor for this moment and for the foreseeable future. Adjusting our strategy to keep them happy is not exactly the way to win this game... #1 is unlikely to be happy about #2 no matter what...

4) RPers will hate us and perceive us as a major threat anyway; one, two, or no happiness wonder... will not matter. Demonstrated numerous times in the past. I have no illusions, they are the archnemesis of our team. Seems that they believe it should be us or them winning this game. Restraining ourselves regarding the wonder builds to "keep them friendly" is futile. It is not possible to "keep" them friendly, as they already are hostile... So, whether RPers mind or not, we have little to care about.

5) ND may actually be upset by this trick, but it is unlikely they will be in a position to "retaliate" anyhow. I suppose they'll be busy trying to conquer Bob - with our NAP, their lack of coastal cities (and thus, navy), they're unlikely to actively join any other team attacking us only because we built 2 happiness wonders instead of just one.

So, we've got only 2 teams that might actually "change their opinion about us" because of the Bach's trick: GS and ND. Both of them quite unable to attack us until we have railroads. Both of them having quite little to gain by meddling with us - but a lot to lose if not focusing on their closer neighbours.

Generally, Bobians are unlikely to unite against us. All of them know the key to winning this game is to conquer their continent for themselves - that's the way to actually GAIN something, not just DO HARM to someone else. A team conquering or dominating Bob would be in a position to win the game, as Bob is much larger than the remaining two landmasses. That's why I am strongly convinced there will be a major war on Bob before anyone (the winner) attacks us in order to slow our progress.

So... this is just about all I have to say on this topic. I am strongly convinced we should build at least Bach's and do our best to build Sistine's, too (though that one may be a bit tricky to pull against RPers). Long-term, these wonders will be extremely important for us. I don't believe we shall base our strategy on what the others are likely to "tolerate" - it is not them having the upper hand. We should follow our own goals and base our decisions on what's good for us.

[Sharpe]

I don't generally disagree that Bach isn't a better wonder than Sistine. No Cathedral needed, more culture, and only one more tech needed and the same wonder cost.

However, if the team decides that Bach is a better wonder we should consider approaching the other teams (except for GoW) and request that we shift the "No Sistine" clause to a "No Bach" clause. I suspect that most if not all of the teams would be very willing as it would allow them to avoid researching the dead-end Music Theory tech.

The only team that I suspect would give us problems is RP - they would probably have the same demands for a "No Bach" as they do for a "No Sistine". If so, we can expose this fact to the other teams to get them to distrust RP even more.

As I have said in the "Next Turn" thread, I have never seen a situation in MP where the acquisition of both Bach and Michelangelo/Sistine Chapel hasn't almost immediately resulted in an attack by everyone else.

We do have the monopoly on dyes (and the ability soon to trade them for other luxuries) and if we can form a trading coalition with teams and perhaps eventually form an alliance with them, we need not be worried for a long time about the happiness situation or being cut off. We should be able to trade our dyes for other luxuries with our allies. We also have Cathedrals, Colosseums and if all else fails the luxury slider as a last resort.

Other scientific and commerce wonders would indirectly benefit happiness too as well as providing other benefits.

Therefore I favour going for ONE happiness wonder now and then evaluating the "lay of the land" after we get it. For me, the choice is which happiness wonder do we do after.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
However, if the team decides that Bach is a better wonder we should consider approaching the other teams (except for GoW) and request that we shift the "No Sistine" clause to a "No Bach" clause. I suspect that most if not all of the teams would be very willing as it would allow them to avoid researching the dead-end Music Theory tech.

But we would be giving up more than we actually need here. As noted above, we do not really need any "no Bach's" clause to have a fine chance of building it. The dead end tech itself is a deterrent to everybody, but GS (which may be as strong as us research-wise), not mentioning the fact only GoW and GS will be able to start researching it. GoW will not even bother (waived Bach's in our favour), GS goes for Banking - so nobody will have it much sooner than us.

Originally posted by Sharpe
As I have said in the "Next Turn" thread, I have never seen a situation in MP where the acquisition of both Bach and Michelangelo/Sistine Chapel hasn't almost immediately resulted in an attack by everyone else.

I agree. It is a very powerful combination of wonders. Especially together with the Pyramids. But we will get attacked by at least two other teams anyway, because of being destined to grow very strong - that's my point. Unless others try and succeed to cripple us militarily, we will most probably win this game due to the superior starting position. If there is any team not realizing this NOW, they WILL realize that - sooner or later. And if we are going to be attacked anyway, than why restraining ourselves regarding wonder builds?

Originally posted by Sharpe
We do have the monopoly on dyes (and the ability soon to trade them for other luxuries) and if we can form a trading coalition with teams and perhaps eventually form an alliance with them, we need not be worried for a long time about the happiness situation or being cut off. We should be able to trade our dyes for other luxuries with our allies. We also have Cathedrals, Colosseums and if all else fails the luxury slider as a last resort.

Agreed - we would not need to worry about luxuries... until our "allies" decided we need to be pruned. Then, we would be in troubles. Cathedrals and Colosseums can certainly be used, but cost significant amounts of shields. These shields will be missed for our military and commercial city improvement builds.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Other scientific and commerce wonders would indirectly benefit happiness too as well as providing other benefits.

Commercial wonders - yes, scientific wonders - no. Aside from Leo's (we waived it in favour of GoW) and Magellan's (which I assume we would go for later on, as it's at the very end of the Medieval tech tree), there is only one more wonder with a "huge" effect: Adam Smith's. While it would be nice to have that one, we can do without it - its dead end tech is much more expensive (though allowing stock exchanges) and being commercial, we aren't that hard pressed for commerce. Newton's & Copernicus' are second level wonders, IMHO, due to their limited scope, Shakespeare's is not even worth mentioning. With Sun Tzu's taken, there is not much left.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Therefore I favour going for ONE happiness wonder now and then evaluating the "lay of the land" after we get it. For me, the choice is which happiness wonder do we do after.

This may be all we need now - to decide which of the two happiness wonder we are going for. My vote is 100% for Bach's - if we see then that building the Sistine's would not be in our best interest, we can always trade the "no-Sistine" clause to someone else for a fine price. No need to rush waiving it NOW.

Considering what has been said - what would you preference be, Steve? Sistine's or Bach's?

[Sharpe]

If we were to build one - and only one - Bach - due to the lack of needing Cathedrals for it to work.

However, if we are going to build anyway or already have a fair amount of Cathedrals - Sistine.

The 2nd point will heavily depend on our ability to maintain the dye trade for other luxuries while we build the wonder. If we are unable to trade dyes, then we would be forced to go for Cathedrals and Colosseums.

I suspect that we should be able to do that with most civs - so I would favor Bach. However, to maintain good relations with the other civs I would still alert them of our change in plans (or at least our potential allies).

As for GS "may be as strong as us research-wise", I suspect that as soon as they start constructing buildings (which clearly from their culture level they haven't done), they will blow by us in research capabilities if they haven't done so already , despite their hefty military costs.

Especially together with the Pyramids. But we will get attacked by at least two other teams anyway, because of being destined to grow very strong - that's my point. Unless others try and succeed to cripple us militarily, we will most probably win this game due to the superior starting position. If there is any team not realizing this NOW, they WILL realize that - sooner or later. And if we are going to be attacked anyway, than why restraining ourselves regarding wonder builds?

Because of opportunity cost - those 600 shields will either build a wonder or a host of units or several buildings for a combination of units and buildings that would help us in several facets - not just happiness. As I have said frequently, I don't like putting all of eggs in one basket - which I think we would be doing in building 2 happiness wonders (yes I know it would allow us to build larger cities and therefore more food, shields and commerce...)

Commercial wonders - yes, scientific wonders - no. Aside from Leo's (we waived it in favour of GoW) and Magellan's (which I assume we would go for later on, as it's at the very end of the Medieval tech tree), there is only one more wonder with a "huge" effect: Adam Smith's. While it would be nice to have that one, we can do without it - its dead end tech is much more expensive (though allowing stock exchanges) and being commercial, we aren't that hard pressed for commerce. Newton's & Copernicus' are second level wonders, IMHO, due to their limited scope, Shakespeare's is not even worth mentioning. With Sun Tzu's taken, there is not much left.

Actually for me Economics is a fairly good tech, despite being a dead-end tech. At least it provides 2 benefits as opposed to one for most dead-end techs (like Music Theory for instance ) As for being hard pressed for commerce, you can never have enough commerce... as with also shields... As for Newton and Copernicus, don't underestimate them as they are extremely powerful tools for a super science city which we do have the opportunity to build if we want in several locations...

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
If we were to build one - and only one - Bach - due to the lack of needing Cathedrals for it to work.

This means we are basically in agreement regarding the upcoming wonder build in Legopolis, are we not? Right after finishing the cathedral in Legopolis, we should start a wonder build there and do our best to make it the Bach's Cathedral, correct? Since we will be able to decide what next then - and building the Sistine's will hopefully still be an option thanks to our treaties. The only team to beat will be the RPers.

Originally posted by Sharpe
However, if we are going to build anyway or already have a fair amount of Cathedrals - Sistine.

Not sure if I am understanding correctly here - do you mean that if we were going to build the Sistine's Chapel anyway (in addition to the Bach's), you would prefer to build it before the Bach's? But our assurances to build the Bach's after the Sistine's are significantly lower than our assurances to build the Sistine's after the Bach's!

Originally posted by Sharpe
The 2nd point will heavily depend on our ability to maintain the dye trade for other luxuries while we build the wonder. If we are unable to trade dyes, then we would be forced to go for Cathedrals and Colosseums.

For at least half the wonder build (~15 turns), we will be unable to trade ANY luxuries, as we will only be researching Astronomy that is necessary to open trade routes to other civs for us. And actually, even with imported luxuries, our situation will not change that much - we have only few cities along rivers, so we'll need to build aqueducts first anyway (@ 100 shields a piece). Before those are up, the (first) wonder will be finished anyway.

Originally posted by Sharpe
I suspect that we should be able to do that with most civs - so I would favor Bach. However, to maintain good relations with the other civs I would still alert them of our change in plans (or at least our potential allies).

This is something we will probably have to agree to disagree on. I see no need to even indirectly indicate we are aiming at the Bach's (as that actually lowers our chances to get it - a warning might prompt another team to do their best to beat us to it). There is only one team we can safely consider an ally - Vox. And those need not to know at all, as their attitude will not change (they have clearly stated they are remaining in the game to help us win). Everybody else is as much of a potential ally as of a potential enemy.

Originally posted by Sharpe
As for GS "may be as strong as us research-wise", I suspect that as soon as they start constructing buildings (which clearly from their culture level they haven't done), they will blow by us in research capabilities if they haven't done so already , despite their hefty military costs.

Do not underestimate us, Steve! We most probably have more land at our disposal. And the high commerce of GS is a result of them having their cities pop-maxxed (originally because of the GA). With our pop growing and Karina finishing the Forbidden Palace (~20-25 turns from now), we shall be able to catch up. Our potential to increase the population may be and probably is higher than theirs.

If approximately 80-90 gold is all they are able to save/invest into the research now (this is what they indicated during the Edu price negotiations - and I lean towards basically believing the figure, considering the context), we're doing well, since our output is 77-84gpt (depends on how much research we are doing). That may be fairly close to what they are able to (we will be much wiser after we get their map... and once they start researching again).

Originally posted by Sharpe
Because of opportunity cost - those 600 shields will either build a wonder or a host of units or several buildings for a combination of units and buildings that would help us in several facets - not just happiness. As I have said frequently, I don't like putting all of eggs in one basket - which I think we would be doing in building 2 happiness wonders (yes I know it would allow us to build larger cities and therefore more food, shields and commerce...)

600 shields is 8.5 knights. While a force more than negligible, it's nothing game breaking - I will grant you that if we had no or few other cities capable of building military units in a reasonable time-frame, it would be "a lot", but that's not the case with us. If we consider every extra labourer we'd be able to use thanks to the Bach's worth one unwasted shield (is that reasonable? I would hope so) and 24 cities total, then we'd need just 600/(24*2)=12.5 turns to get our "investment" back. And even if we consider only the existing cities plus, say, 2 more that would be founded before the wonder was completed: 600/(15*2)=20 turns.

Yes, a university (200 shields) and a bank (160 shields) in Legopolis would also bring in benefits - more science and more commerce. Roughly: the second wonder will take about ~26-27 turns to complete. With the base commerce of 36 (at pop 11), that would be, say, 36/2*27=486 beakers for the university (like ~5 turns of 50% research) and 36/2*27=486 gold for the bank. I do not find these numbers very convincing, especially considering how far ahead of the #3 we are in terms of research and commerce.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Actually for me Economics is a fairly good tech, despite being a dead-end tech. At least it provides 2 benefits as opposed to one for most dead-end techs (like Music Theory for instance )

Errr... sorry for confusing you, I keep mixing that bloody graph symbol in the tech tree for the stock exchange all the time. Trying to find out how many shields a stock exchange costs, I have found out that Economics only allows Adam Smith's... So it's as dead a tech as the Music Theory, just much more expensive. Stock exchanges come only with The Corporation.

Originally posted by Sharpe
As for Newton and Copernicus, don't underestimate them as they are extremely powerful tools for a super science city which we do have the opportunity to build if we want in several locations...

Well... is building a super-science city not a form of putting all eggs into one basket...?

[Sharpe]

There is only one team we can safely consider an ally - Vox

I disagree - they are at best a vassal or junior partner - calling them an ally is a vast overstatement. And I am now not firmly convinced that we can totally rely on them - based on what I have seen and heard, I suspect that there is as much as a 40% chance that they will move against us at some point.

[vondrack]

Well, yes, an "ally" is too strong, you are right.

I meant that Vox is the only team that has virtually no interest in fighting us (=nothing to gain, especially with the generous co-existence treaty we proposed). For them, as far as "winning" the game is concerned, the game is already over - they did their best, but failed. They can't win any more. Starting over at ~0 AD on Legos Minor means they are out of the race. They still want to continue playing for fun, but obviously, their goal will have to be different from simple "winning" - the most they can hope for now is they will be of some help to someone else winning the game... kind of being part of the "winning block" or something. Helping the team that kicked their ass (GS) makes little sense. Helping teams that helped them little against GS or even "betrayed" them is a similar case. So I consider it very safe to assume they will keep their word and help us - after all, we are the only team that REALLY did something for them (be it the money or their escape clause).

By calling Voxes "allies", I did not mean they would be that much of help to us at the moment. Certainly, any other team cooperating with us will bring more benefit, that's for sure. But every other team can still more or less "win the game", which makes it a potential enemy.

As for Voxes turning against us... I know this is just my word. But if it ever happens, I'm going to quit from this team, from the PtWDG, and probably from Apolyton as well. That big my personal disappointment would be (and that unlikely I consider it). There are promises (likely) to be broken and there are promises to be kept.

Vox will not break their word to us.

But that's something that has little to do with the topic of this thread - my note about Voxes being the only true ally was meant to point out everybody else will at some point in the game turn against us in order to keep his own chance of winning the game. Relying on "good relations" & "allies" from Bob or Stormia will inevitably lead to a nasty surprise. Sooner or later, but it will. The logic of this game is very cruel.

That's why I believe we should focus our efforts on delaying the direct military attack at us for as long as possible, instead of generally trying to be friends with everybody, never making others frown upon us. The only way to get never attacked is to never be in a position to win the game.

I don't care if others avoid/delay attacking us because of "liking us" or "fearing us". Either works for me. The combination of both works best, I'd say. And with the happiness wonders, I believe that "fearing" will work better than "liking". While giving one of the wonders up will do little in terms of others "liking us more" or "disliking us less" (as we are bound to grow very strong anyway), grabbing both will do more in terms of others "fearing us more".

[Sharpe]

That's why I believe we should focus our efforts on delaying the direct military attack at us for as long as possible, instead of generally trying to be friends with everybody, never making others frown upon us. The only way to get never attacked is to never be in a position to win the game.

Actually that is why I favour trying to form a coalition of nations that would be strong enough to counter any other coalition of nations. Currently I would favour working with GoW and GS as combined with us would be an extremely powerful alliance - militarily, economically and diplomatically. Further, they are both our neighbours (or at least GS soon will be) and as such among our biggest threats. As the axiom goes: "keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" And most of all, an alliance with them might help prevent closer ties between them and our archnemesis RP.

This coalition idea, combined with our military and other diplomatic and technological efforts (such as keeping ahead on defensive tech), might be enough to stall or even prevent any invasion for a long time.

[vondrack]

Agreed, working together with GoW and GS seems like our best option now. With ND fairly neutral, RPers would be isolated and unable to do any harm to us.

My only problem with coalitions (and NAPs, too) is that they work/last only as long as they are beneficial for all parties involved (as opposed to lasting as long as we would want them to last). Once they are no longer in the best interest of one party or another, they collapse.

So, yes - as long as possible, be friends with GS and GoW. But stay vigilant. GS seems to be in a bed with us quite nicely now (which is an irony, considering the fact that about 1/3 to 1/2 of the immortals troubling them were funded by us). GoW will keep out of troubles as long as we keep delivering fine tech deals, that I am quite sure of.

BTW - just had our semi-regular chat with DeepO, Shiber, and nye... DeepO specifically asked whether we would be willing to agree to GS going for the Economics after Banking. They will pay 230 gold we asked for, but will ask for being granted the uncontested research of the Economics in exchange. Which means: they are not interested in the Bach's Cathedral. And: we will have time enough to research Music Theory without falling behind GS in the non-dead part of the tech tree (we will actually gain few turns on them, as MT is much cheaper than Eco). Talk about being lucky.

Considering GoW already agreed to letting us build both the happiness wonders, our two "allies" or "friends" seem to be unlikely to get upset about us going for both the wonders...

[Sharpe]

Sounds good - too bad I missed the chat as I was looking forward to it.

When are the regularly scheduled chats with GS taking place?

As for the duration of any coalition, I realize that it is by no means eternal - far from it... For instance if we allied with GS and GoW, the beginning of the end would probably be GoW attacking ND as then we would need to decide whether to help GoW with a probable ND-RP allliance and if GoW won we would then face the choice of whether our main ally would be GoW or GS etc.

Right now, I agree - we must isolate RP and forge a friendly relationship especially with GoW and GS.

[lmtoops]

Good discussion between Sharpe and Vondrack.

But seriously, no one is getting personal or angry. Just presenting your case.

In an earlier post (another thread many days ago), I stated what our long term goals should be. Being self-sufficient in luxuaries was one of those points. For that reason, I would like to have both luxary GW. But for now, we can research Bach's and then see about Sistine.

[Tiberius]

The equation is simple enough, IMHO:

1. we need happiness wonders, because we have only one luxury. We can trade for other luxuries, but that's not a guarantee. Should a coalition embargo us, we are toast. (well, not really, but we'd lose at least 20% of our GNP for the happiness slider)

2. since we need happiness wonders, best would be to build both. I find the idea that building both happiness wonders would trigger a general war against us (I apologize for that, but...) ridiculous. Each wonder has its own importance in the eyes of each player and each team has its own agenda. GoW for example is more interested in Leonardo, for obvious reasons. The RP have plenty of luxuries, why should they care about Bach's ? GS apparently are after Smiths's ... and so on. Everybody knows that we are after the luxury wonders. Maybe they just don't think we have the guts to build both.

3. With the Sistine Chappel being almost secured it is logical to begin with Bach's. We'd have only one (weak) competitor for the Sistine but a lot of them for Bach's. Easy choice.

4. We have a city with huge building potential. It'd be a shame to waste it. Sure, we could build a university or a bank, but we can build these later, too. Besides the effekt of those buildings cannot be compared with the benefits of the happiness wonders.

So, I vote for:
- building both wonders in Legopolis, in the following order: Bach's Cathedral, Sistine Chappel.

PS. I'm also for building the Collossus in Panama. It's a cheap, long lasting wonder, and Panama with its high commerce potential, would make a great research center (building perhaps a tech wonder once it has triggered our GA with the Collossus).

[vondrack]

With RPers agreeing to the no Sistine clause (see the diplo thread), I believe the issue is effectively resolved. We would have to be nuts to not go for both wonders - we will be able to build the Sistine's ANY time we will want.