Official Response to Vox Peace

[ZargonX]

Ok, here's a draft for our official response...

From the People of Legoland,

Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.

As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the only answer. While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.

[ZargonX]

sorry, I'm doing this in smaller sections because it's storming pretty fierce here... don't want to lose anything if the power flickers.

GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS. Threats, boasts, and general sneering at the rest of the world is no way to gain support for one's viewpoint.

[ZargonX]

But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out and there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop them, that doesn't mean that they should. We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all my discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides.

As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration.

[Tiberius]

What is this? We are saying basically nothing.
If we don't promise something for peace, or threaten, or support someone or whatever, it is like saying nothing. I'm really sorry to say it Zargon, but these are empty words.

Edit: Oops, I was reading offline and Zargon has added more to his first staement. But I still don't feel that this is something that others would care about.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by ZargonX
And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out and there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop them, that doesn't mean that they should.

This especially should not be said. We might not be able to send troops on Estonia, but GoW and RP could, and GS must believe they might.

[ZargonX]

No, Tiberius, you are right. It does lack something... I was trying to keep this one as the "nice" speech, and perhaps I should throw something in about being rewarded for pursuing peace.

However, once that is inevtiably rejected by GS, we can move on to the "mean" speech, hopefully with GoW and RP along side us.

[Kloreep]

Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.

TBH, not sure if this paragraph is really needed... good writing, but I think everyone knows this.

As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the only answer.

Perhaps change to "right answer"? Considering the advantage GS seems to have over Vox, it certainly doesn't seem like the only.

While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.

GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS. Threats, boasts, and general sneering at the rest of the world is no way to gain support for one's viewpoint.

I'd take out the last sentence. Save it, and if there's a mean speech use it then.

But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out and there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop them, that doesn't mean that they should.

I agree with Tiberius here; take out "and there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop them".

We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all my discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides.

As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration.

Overall good. Perhaps we should emphasize GS' PR failure, and then hint at better relations should peace be signed.

[vondrack]

This would be our official note posted in the public thread, right? Accompanied by a private message offering Theo for ceasing hostilities, right? Then it is fine with me - and I agree with the comments of Tiberius and Kloreep.

[ZargonX]

From the People of Legoland,

Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.

As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the right answer. While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.

GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS.

But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out, that doesn't mean that they should. We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all may discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides.

As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration. There is still a chance for good things to come from all of this, if people are willing to work together.

[vondrack]

Just nit-picking...

treacherous
victim

[ZargonX]

Bah! Spelling be damned!



Anyway, posted in the main forum, and message sent to ManicStarSeed that I wish to speak with him.

[Sharpe]

Theseus has announced in the "thread" that he will seek to completely destroy Vox.

Vox delenda est he says (like what the Romans said about Carthage I bet)

Supposedly favoured by Theseus, Sir Ralph and DeepO - they are forming the StormHawk Party.

Edit: Thought we might want to talk to the other teams again but with RP clearly backing out now and the divisions in GoW - it may not worth it - except perhaps how to deal with GS in the future - plus I initially thought this was GS declaring that they were going to destroy Vox, but clearly it is going to be an internal discussion between the hawks and doves.

[ZargonX]

Well, frankly, I think it may be time to just write Vox off. They are pretty much screwed, regardless of our efforts. However, all is not for naught, as I think we can still pull a deal for Theo and a no-Sistene's with GS anyway.

If this game has taught us anything so far, it's that sometimes you need to put your own goals ahead of others. It's time for us to stop worrying so much about the eventual fate of Vox and worry more about our own fate. GS is going to come out of this very powerful, and while we shouldn't aim to be more powerful than them, we want to keep a close second.

I know many on this team feel bad for Vox, or feel we owe them something because of promises made, but it's time to move past that. We are Lego, and we're not here to make sacrifices for anyone else. We can still make some good deals out of this whole fiasco, and put ourselves into a solid position. But, for the moment, I saw we stop putting ourselves on the line for Vox, and work towards bettering ourselves.

[vondrack]

Let's chill here... we knew very well that there were hawks among GS. This is no unexpected news. We should continue negotiating along the lines of our chat with GS last night.

Let me remind you:

1) Voxes would fill Legos Minor perfectly
2) Legos Minor may house an extremely powerful researching civ - the amount of commerce is surprising (I have been playing with city placement options). Having a strong researcher basically our vassal state would be very important strategically.
3) we still want the deal - Theo for no Sistine's. And I am optimistic - I believe we can get it.

Also - this is quite important from the diplomatic point of view. If we let GS spit in our face and tell us "get stuffed with your peace proposal" (despite us being GENEROUS in offering them a good deal), we actually admit we feel we are a second rate world power they can do this to.

But we are THE world power - and everybody shall realize that. Keep in mind that it is not only our actual military and economic strength what matters. It is the perceived strength, in the first place. Chickening out on the first hearing of hawkish intentions from some GS members does not really help our image of a strong nation.

I do not see there would be any change in how Vox may benefit us on Legos Minor. All the reasons we have had to hop them there still stand. GS will not follow them - fighting a war with us over the big sea is the last thing they would be dying for, irrespective of their public announcements.

Do not get me wrong - I got pissed off a lot during the chat, finding out that Voxes leaked the plan, effectively striking out most trumps out of our hand. But I am trying to look far into the future here. Voxes on Legos Minor are an asset, believe me. If you recall GS concerns about a tech embargo... that is exactly what Voxes would be our guarantee against. With one team always on our side, trading techs, we will be much less vulnerable to tech embargoes from other teams.

Do not take this lightly - sooner or later, this is going to happen, because we are rising to power. All our friends or "friends" that will be in a position to win the game will sooner or later turn against us, simply because they will not be able to win if staying our friends. We better make sure we have some allies then...

[vondrack]

And to clarify my stance: We ARE putting our goals ahead of everything else, especially ahead of the benefit of Vox Controli. Just that these goals should be, IMHO, easier to achieve with Voxes by our side than if we write them off now.

I am strictly counting pros and cons, no noble intentions involved at this moment.

Do not get confused by the GS bluff - they have no means to hunt Voxes down on Legos Minor. And they badly need our deal to get back into the tech race.

Let them rattle their sabres. We have our own goals to stick to.