Chat with GS at 1300GMT

[Hot_Enamel]

Email from Zeit

Hot_Enamel

UnOrthOdOx will be there too- that's great!
I'll set up a channel on the poly server named: #talks, to join in, you'll need a password: "negotiator"
to join the channel, after you're connect to the server: "/join #talks negotiator". I'll take care of the logging. So, 13:00 GMT it is- i'll meet you there, if you have any trouble, just email me.

Zeit

Join if you can.
Unortho - I told him you are a "maybe".

Regs

[Hot_Enamel]

The chat room is open right now - 1 hour early

[Donegeal]

Send our extra Galley around the Luxian Cape and head for GS!

[Hot_Enamel]

Here is the full log

I will post a report later - (much later)




log

[Hot_Enamel]

Part1

Gentlemen,
Attached for your reading pleasure is the log of the chat session we had with Gathering Storm. I have removed some of the non-game chat.

This first part is us discussing their agreement/alliance with Vox

Session Start: Fri Mar 21 23:01:00 2003
[23:52] Panzer32[GoW]> so what's the issue here anyways?
[23:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> GS called the meeting
[23:54] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]> They want to explain their Tech strategy and arrange a NAP, I believe.
[23:54] Panzer32[GoW]> ok
[23:55] Shiber[GS]> actually, the idea resulted from the surprise chat between GhengisFarb and Sir Ralph
[23:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> - GS was a little vague on what they spoke about
[23:55] Shiber[GS]> we were concerned, and wanted to clear things up, as well as answer some of the questions that you've recently asked
[23:55] Shiber[GS]> oh, by the way...
[23:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Not GS ... I meant GF was a little vague
[23:57] Shiber[GS]> oh lol
[00:04] *** zeit has joined #talks
[00:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Hello Zeit
[00:04] UnOrthOdOx[GoW]> Greetings zeit
[00:05] zeit> Hi, sorry for being late, i had some technical difficulties
[00:05] zeit> but it's all fixed
[00:13] zeit> okay, i think we can start
[00:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> OK
[00:14] zeit> First, i'd like to clarfify this one thing about our relations with Vox.
[00:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yep
[00:15] zeit> It is of no military nature, like i said before, and includes no sort of protection pact
[00:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> If I was stuck on an island, with Persia, I would work damn hard on getting a MPP / alliance
[00:16] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], that also depends on a lot of out-game factors
[00:16] Shiber[GS]> for example, who are the people you are dealing with?
[00:16] zeit> that's right, but we believe common interests will maintain peace better than artifical NAP...
[00:16] Shiber[GS]> are they stable? are they trustworthy? are they skillful at the game?
[00:17] Shiber[GS]> very true.
[00:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> You mean ND & RP ?
[00:17] zeit> vox
[00:17] zeit> oops, sorry
[00:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Vox is a loose canon
[00:17] Shiber[GS]> furthermore, a NAP has a defined expiration date
[00:18] Shiber[GS]> that raises all kinds of problems
[00:18] Donegeal[GoW]> how?
[00:18] Shiber[GS]> that is, some tend to see the turn that marks the end of the NAP as the turn that could start the war
[00:18] zeit> that would bring tension
[00:19] Shiber[GS]> we were thinking that Vox might interpret a NAP this way: "we want to attack you in 30 turns, but we're building up right now so don't attack us in the meantime, okay?"
[00:19] Panzer32[GoW]> we've had peaceful ends to NAPs, it seemed like neither team noticed it
[00:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Agreed - But you would renegotiate well before it ends and it they decline, you start to prepare
[00:19] Panzer32[GoW]> thats why we give longer NAPs
[00:19] Shiber[GS]> the thing with Vox is, we don't quite trust them
[00:19] zeit> well, look at how the NAP between Lux-RP ended up..,
[00:19] Shiber[GS]> mostly because they're so unstable
[00:20] zeit> and have little confidence in their own play
[00:20] Shiber[GS]> anyway, we've told you already - we don't have any NAPs or MPPs or any other such agreements with Vox. This cross-examination is unnecessary.
[00:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We dont really care if you do or dont
[00:21] Shiber[GS]> why is it that GoW worries so much about Vox?
[00:21] Donegeal[GoW]> OK agreeed, but why should we believe you?
[00:21] Shiber[GS]> Donegeal[GoW], ?????
[00:21] zeit> there's no reason actually, but the past has shown we don't lie
[00:21] Shiber[GS]> I'm quite shocked to read this.
[00:21] zeit> both of us
[00:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> ok -
[00:21] Donegeal[GoW]> I don't think you have a NAP or MPP with Vox, but why should we believe you?
[00:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> This is our concern
[00:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Vox is hording money
[00:22] Shiber[GS]> Donegeal[GoW], you can take our word for it. That's all we can offer.
[00:22] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], explain please
[00:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Why are vox hording money ?
[00:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Plan Gold ?
[00:22] Shiber[GS]> how are they hording money?
[00:22] Donegeal[GoW]> no... you could offer a map...
[00:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Warrior -> Immortals
[00:22] Shiber[GS]> Donegeal[GoW], even if we had a map of their territory, how would it prove that we don't have a NAP/MPP with Vox?
[00:22] zeit> maps are regarded highly confidential, and so far no one had a view of our lands
[00:23] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], how do you know that they are hording up gold? And why do you think that they intend to attack your team in particular?
[00:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> ok -
[00:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> They tend to prefer money for tech
[00:23] Donegeal[GoW]> The fact that you refuse to give that info up make you shadey
[00:23] zeit> slow down, please, i have a hard time keeping up...
[00:23] Shiber[GS]> Zeit is correct, and as far as we know, GoW hasn't traded maps with anyone yet either.
[00:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Gow has traded maps
[00:24] Shiber[GS]> with whom?
[00:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> doesnt matter
[00:24] Shiber[GS]> okay - why should we believe you?
[00:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]>
[00:24] Shiber[GS]> the fact that you refuse to tell us who you traded maps with makes you shadey
[00:24] Shiber[GS]> see what i mean?
[00:24] Panzer32[GoW]> why should you not believe us?
[00:24] Shiber[GS]> if you keep up this attitude, then we're not going to get anywhere
[00:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]>
[00:25] Shiber[GS]> Panzer32[GoW], exactly.
[00:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We traded maps because we had an agreement
[00:25] zeit> anyway, this is the GS policy- our maps are very valuable, and won't be traded unless we have to
[00:25] Shiber[GS]> now, if we want to get somewhere, we have to start trusting each other.
[00:25] zeit> that has nothing to do with our relation with vox, so please leave that out
[00:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> yep agreed
[00:25] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], Panzer32[GoW], so far your team has proven to be fair and honest.
[00:25] Shiber[GS]> So has ours, we believe.
[00:25] Shiber[GS]> there's no reason why we shouldn't trust each other.
[00:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> YEs you have
[00:25] Donegeal[GoW]> guess its time to go exploring...
[00:26] zeit> we've kept some info to ourselves, and intend to keep doing that, that's no reason to say we're not to be trusted.
[00:27] Panzer32[GoW]> so do we
[00:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> I will tell you what has us concerned
[00:27] zeit> we will tell you what we can, but the nature of your questions suggests we are to act as spies on Vox, why is that, are vox enemies to you?
[00:27] Panzer32[GoW]> I think we have more to lose by trading maps to you than you do to us.
[00:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are worried about warriors -> Immortal
[00:27] zeit> perhaps, than why end up with a lose-lose situation
[00:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Vox is 1 tile from our continent
[00:28] zeit> so are we concerned with it, and keep an eye on the border
[00:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Our problem is - you dont seem concerned
[00:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> You have a border agreement with the
[00:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Them
[00:28] Panzer32[GoW]> Vox has the potential to be a direct threat. Like Cuba threatening US.
[00:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> You have a tech alliance with them
[00:29] Shiber[GS]> yes, that's simply to save us the bother of REXing over growth
[00:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Therefore it is not a giant leap to assume you have a MPP or other with them
[00:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> If they are building immortals and are not going to attack you
[00:29] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], we've told you already - there is no MPP between GS and Vox.
[00:29] zeit> it's not, but i tell you we have none, why are we back to square 1?
[00:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Then who do they attack
[00:29] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], how do you know that they're not going to attack us?
[00:29] Shiber[GS]> honestly, we don't know either
[00:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> OK - 1 step back
[00:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We assumed you had a MPP
[00:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> therefore we assume we would be their target
[00:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We can handle them 1 vs 1
[00:30] Shiber[GS]> okay, we understand where you're coming from and the logic behind your assumption - but it is false.
[00:30] zeit> But i hope that now you understand we don't have an MPP
[00:30] Shiber[GS]> i can guarantee you that
[00:30] Shiber[GS]> on my word
[00:30] zeit> Shiber - ;
[00:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> OK - No Probs
[00:30] zeit>
[00:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> This is where we are coming from - no acusations
[00:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We can handle them 1 vs 1
[00:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> But if we are drawn into a Bob war ????
[00:31] Shiber[GS]> So, if I understand you correctly: you can handle Vox 1 on 1, but you are afraid that a war with Vox would leave you open to attacks from ND and RP?
[00:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We would need to cover two fronts
[00:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yes
[00:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We could do it ... but it would be a defensive war
[00:32] Shiber[GS]> well, you know that GS has an interest in GoW. You are our best friends on Bob
[00:33] Shiber[GS]> therefore, although i can't commit to anything, i am sure that we will do whatever we can within reasonable limits to help you out
[00:33] zeit> i concur
[00:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> I think we would like to explore that
[00:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We have no interest in your continent
[00:33] Shiber[GS]> would GoW be interested in an agreement where GS were to attack Vox in case it declared war on you?
[00:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are concerned about Vox
[00:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> That would be of great interest to us
[00:34] Panzer32[GoW]> would it work the other way? Or only one way?
[00:34] Shiber[GS]> alternatively, we can just ask Vox not to attack you. While we have no power over their decisions, it might sway them from the notion
[00:34] Donegeal[GoW]> Shiber... that is an interesting idea...
[00:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> How can you ask that ?
[00:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Do you have that close of relations with them ?
[00:35] Shiber[GS]> Panzer32[GoW], we are confident on our side.
[00:35] zeit> i hardly think our team would approve an MPP against Vox, but we could put some pressure on them
[00:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> It would only come into effect, if war breaks out on Bob
[00:36] zeit> Of course, but wars break on Bob all the time...
[00:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Let Bob sort out their own problems without having to worry about Vox or GS
[00:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]>
[00:36] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], hardly, but if we tell them something the sort of "we have heard this and that and we would suggest that you do not attack GoW", they might think that we're going to attack them in case they attack you - whether or not we actually have an agreement to do so
[00:36] Panzer32[GoW]> I'm going to eat breakfast now... I will check here from time to time
[00:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We would have to discuss the wording very carefully
[00:36] zeit> bon apetite
[00:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We though Vox v GS war was inevitable
[00:37] Shiber[GS]> in any case, we could try to work our a draft for an agreement where GS is obliged to attack Vox in case it attacks GoW (but not the other way around, as we see no need to this)
[00:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> But when nothing happened...we jumped to the comclusion that you are in league
[00:37] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], don't be so sure. Vox are scared of us AFAIK, and GS are not of imperialistic nature.
[00:37] Donegeal[GoW]> an exclusive MPP...
[00:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We know very little about Vox or GS
[00:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> This sort of intel helps us
[00:38] Shiber[GS]> wait, let me try turning off P2P.
[00:39] zeit> of course this intel helps you, but we have positive relations with Vox, and your fear alone is not enough for decisions such as going to war
[00:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Thats why a MPP between us might work
[00:40] Donegeal[GoW]> please.. an Exclusive MPP...
[00:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> I should also tell you ....
[00:40] Donegeal[GoW]> hehehe an EMP..
[00:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are not the only team that thinks you are in league with Vox
[00:40] Panzer32[GoW]> How much of Vox's map do you have, GS?
[00:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Not that we think that now
[00:41] zeit> shiber has some problems with connection, he'll be right back
[00:42] Donegeal[GoW]> I noticed... I pinged him and it hasn't ponged yet...
[00:42] *** Shiber[GS] has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[00:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Another Question Zeit ...
[00:42] zeit> yes
[00:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> How are your relations with ND ?
[00:43] zeit> not much of it, they're apathic
[00:43] Donegeal[GoW]> what about RP?
[00:43] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We figured Sir Ralph would be talking to them
[00:44] zeit> i'll be right back
[00:44] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> NP
[00:45] *** Shiber has joined #talks
[00:45] Panzer32[GoW]> As I said, How much of the continent around Vox has been mapped by GS?
[00:46] *** Shiber is now known as Shiber[GS]
[00:46] Shiber[GS]> back (computer crashed earlier)
[00:46] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> np

[Hot_Enamel]

Part 2

Now some chatter about maps / territory / borders

[00:46] zeit> okay, back to business
[00:46] zeit>
[00:46] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Panzer ... your question first
[00:46] Shiber[GS]> Panzer32[GoW]: we have drawn a border line, and each team has explored a little beyond this line.
[00:46] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> is it 50-50 ?
[00:46] Shiber[GS]> plus, during talks, we gave each other general descriptions of the land that the other can't see
[00:47] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> who got the better deal ?
[00:47] Donegeal[GoW]> may we have that description?
[00:47] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW]: we can't tell for sure, since as I sad we haven't mapped the entire continent, but I think that we got the better deal.
[00:47] zeit> no reason for that- donegeal
[00:47] Shiber[GS]> Donegeal[GoW], I don't think our team would mind telling you about Vox's lands, though we have to ask there first.
[00:48] Shiber[GS]> but as far as I'm concerned, we can provide you with intel regarding Vox's troops (those that we can see), their resources (what we know) and their lands (again, what we know)
[00:49] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], Vox also knows that we got the better deal. We agreed that GS is to get the larger part of the continent because without a border treaty, we would win in a REX race anyway
[00:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Well done
[00:49] zeit> what about you're devision of ex-Lux lands?
[00:49] Shiber[GS]> we both agreed that GS could get more than what it secured for itself if both teams were to REX it out, but we also agreed that REXing is expensive, and comes at the expense of early growth and development
[00:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Again - Good deal
[00:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> ND & Gow have gone militaristic builds
[00:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> RP - Marking their territory
[00:50] Donegeal[GoW]> that seems very reasonable... if this is the case, why do you think Vox is a loose cannon?
[00:51] Shiber[GS]> so we decided to get less of the continent than we could have gotten (so perhaps, thinking in those terms, Vox were the ones to get the better deal out of it?), but we secured the ancient age border-wise and thus allowed ourselves to develop our cities instead of going into a senseless REX war
[00:51] Shiber[GS]> Donegeal[GoW], it's our experience with Vox.
[00:51] Shiber[GS]> first of all, it took us a LOOONG while to get to this agreement
[00:51] Shiber[GS]> in the mean time, Vox kept provoking us
[00:51] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> So they are aggressive ?
[00:51] Shiber[GS]> later on, they brought in Lux - without asking us for our opinion.
[00:52] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], more senseless than aggressive
[00:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> That worrys us
[00:52] Shiber[GS]> i don't think they were counting on an early war, IMHO they just thought that we would be scared and submit
[00:53] Panzer32[GoW]> they wanted to hold off the war chariots until they get immortals...
[00:53] Shiber[GS]> Panzer32[GoW], perhaps
[00:53] Shiber[GS]> but now we are several times more powerful than them production-wise, so they probably abandoned all plans for war with us by now
[00:54] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Again - That is what worries us
[00:54] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Why waste their immortals
[00:54] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> They will want to attack someone
[00:55] zeit> what about your position on Bob, what have you gotten from the ex-Luxian lands?
[00:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Its a land rush between us and ND
[00:55] Donegeal[GoW]> lux lands sucked...
[00:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yes - They arent great - no resources
[00:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We figured Sir Ralph would be very close to ND ? We are surprised that you dont deal with them much
[00:56] Donegeal[GoW]> that was part of the reason that the war happened...
[00:56] Panzer32[GoW]> Settling them also just results in corrupt cities - too far away from capitol
[00:56] zeit> we can't say that we don't deal with them, just not much of comm
[00:56] zeit> so why don't you try to make a border treaty?
[00:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We havent stepped on each others toes yet
[00:57] zeit> to stop the silly settling contest?
[00:57] Shiber[GS]> and mind me asking - how does RP fit into this?
[00:57] Shiber[GS]> you said that they marked their territory. how?
[00:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> If there is a RP - ND war, we would rather not have a border treaty
[00:58] Shiber[GS]> they just put up warriors and said "whatever's south of here is ours"?
[00:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> That was RP's method yes.
[00:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Lots of jungle in the middle of Bob
[00:58] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], what about the luxian lands - did you divide them between ND and yourselves?
[00:58] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Shiber - no
[00:59] Shiber[GS]> then who got Lux's lands?
[00:59] Donegeal[GoW]> like you said... not much Comm...
[00:59] zeit> I think he said they rather take their chance at grabbing those
[00:59] zeit> in the event of ND-RP war
[00:59] Shiber[GS]> oh ok
[00:59] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are telling each other where our settlers are going - and so far no problems
[00:59] Shiber[GS]> oh, almost forgot...
[00:59] *** Shiber[GS] sets mode: +o Donegeal[GoW]
[00:59] Donegeal[GoW]>
[00:59] Shiber[GS]> but you are still REXing?
[01:00] Shiber[GS]> this is bad news
[01:00] Shiber[GS]> i was hoping to hear that GoW is getting stronger
[01:00] zeit> that's good- but why won't you try a border treaty- this could turn their attention towards RP, while you peacefuly develop
[01:00] Donegeal[GoW]> I wouldn't call it Rexing perse...
[01:00] Panzer32[GoW]> we have Lux land to settle
[01:00] Shiber[GS]> Donegeal[GoW], but if you don't build settlers fast enough, then ND is going to grab more land. That calls for serious REXing
[01:00] Panzer32[GoW]> they aren't going too fast either
[01:00] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> There will be war on Bob .. we are in a "controled" expansion
[01:01] zeit> right, but won't you be better with a slower paced settling, you have prime lands, like you said
[01:01] Shiber[GS]> Panzer32[GoW], now you're being kinda vague. You said that you haven't divided lands or secured any lands by form of treaty; given that, how can you say that you have Lux land to settle?
[01:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> If we swaped maps...we could show you
[01:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]>
[01:01] Donegeal[GoW]> they are open...that is why..
[01:01] Shiber[GS]>
[01:02] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Lux was east of Gow & ND
[01:02] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are both expanding east
[01:02] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> eastish
[01:02] Shiber[GS]> okay, just so i get this straight: open, but not officially claimed by anyone, in-game or out-game, within a treaty
[01:02] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> No border agreement
[01:02] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> no treaty
[01:02] Donegeal[GoW]> ... sorta...
[01:02] Donegeal[GoW]> RP is not allowed up there...
[01:03] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We just tell them where we are going...they do likewise
[01:03] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> so far, no problems
[01:03] Shiber[GS]> you have an agreement with RP, or is this simply an unwritten rule?
[01:03] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> RP have a heap of land
[01:03] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Half the continent
[01:03] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], do you know how far south the continent stretches?
[01:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Maps have been swapped yes
[01:04] zeit> so how come you except their claim of so much land?
[01:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Large continent with a lot of jungle in the middle
[01:04] Panzer32[GoW]> we didn't say we like it, but we have to live with it.
[01:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We cant do anything about it
[01:05] Panzer32[GoW]> ND blocks our route to them, and RP have blocked ND.
[01:05] Donegeal[GoW]> sorry... breakfast... its an unwritten rule Shiber..
[01:05] zeit> If you decide with ND, that you don't except the RP claim of the land, they'll have to negotiate
[01:05] zeit> just push the entire conflict towards RP.
[01:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We havent settled all of north yet.
[01:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> If we swapped maps, you woudl see
[01:06] Shiber[GS]> Apologies, I'll be on and off for the next couple of minutes, so I'm sorry if I can't answer questions directed at me immediately.
[01:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> It is difficult to explain
[01:06] Panzer32[GoW]> we would need to build up before we incite a war.
[01:06] zeit> right, but in the future, RP will actually claim those lands, and it will be tougher for both you and ND to expand
[01:06] Donegeal[GoW]> too far away...
[01:07] zeit> i didn't talk about war- just make an agreement with ND, that they push RP towards giving more land, supported by your efforts
[01:07] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Jungle in the middle. ND would rather claim land north of it. That leaves RP with the southern half of the contienent
[01:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> They wouldnt want to claim jungle land just to get to RP's "border"
[01:08] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> North is easier
[01:08] zeit> thso RP's land is basically moderate amount of habitable land, and lot's of jungle?
[01:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Lots of jungle in the middle "unclaimed"
[01:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> RP claims everything south "moderatlr good"
[01:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> ND is north of the jungle and expanding North & East
[01:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are at the top...also expanding east
[01:09] zeit> okay, how fast do they do that?
[01:10] zeit> expanding
[01:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Who ? RP or ND
[01:10] zeit> ND
[01:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> ND & RP basically at the same speed
[01:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> not Rex
[01:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> keeping a good military build
[01:10] zeit> but you're the ones against ND- so who's winning?
[01:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Different civs
[01:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> They have leftover swords from Lux war
[01:11] zeit> on the Rex contest
[01:11] zeit> you have Iron yet?
[01:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We have horsemen
[01:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yes - but it is awkward position
[01:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We killing barbs and have some elites
[01:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Most of their swords are regulars
[01:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are militaristic
[01:12] zeit> I suggest you connect it, if ND has enough of it, they won't be upset
[01:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> They are religious
[01:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yes - ND has their own supply
[01:13] zeit> so have certain edge you can take advantage of, but the Rex contest is not good for you at this point, IMHO

[Hot_Enamel]

Part 3

And finally some discussion about our "Iron" situation.
During the chat, Donegeal suggested I was giving too much info away....but please remember, I asked and got the OK to approach GS about being a backup for our iron many weaks ago. They know ;
1. We have a source
2. If can be easily taken off us by ND
3. We need a backup source only
I think they have assumed we are using a colony....they DO NOT KNOW about our ND agreement.

[01:11] zeit> you have Iron yet?
[01:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yes - but it is awkward position
[01:12] zeit> I suggest you connect it, if ND has enough of it, they won't be upset
[01:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yes - ND has their own supply
[01:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are using galleys to find another source
[01:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> RP has plenty
[01:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> of iron
[01:13] zeit> it will take time- harbors and all
[01:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> there are islands between us and Lego - but no luck yet
[01:14] zeit> i suggest you take the one you have, despite it's poistion
[01:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Habours is the problem
[01:14] zeit> it will be difficult for us to help you, with gold e.g. if you can't upgrade warriors
[01:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We have...but if ND wants to, they could cut it off.
[01:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> To ensure its supply, we would need to build too close to ND.
[01:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> The last civ that did that...is no longer with us
[01:15] zeit> all you need are a few turns- for a mass upgrade
[01:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yep - so if there is war, it may happen before pikes and/or riders
[01:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> but maybe not
[01:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> we dont know
[01:16] zeit> you could upgrade archers...
[01:17] Panzer32[GoW]> if we had archers...
[01:17] zeit> are ND building militarily- you have reasons to suspect they want a war soon?
[01:17] zeit> you're right- it's better to just upgrade warriors, but you also need Iron.
[01:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> ND vs RP ? ND vs Gow ? it could go anywhere
[01:17] zeit> and until we have harbors, we can't help you with that
[01:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Do you have 2 sources of iron ?
[01:18] zeit> ND vs Gow
[01:18] zeit> even if we have one- we could lend it for a few turns
[01:18] Shiber[GS]> i agree with Zeit
[01:18] Shiber[GS]> and so does the rest of our team
[01:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> ND vs Gow War ?
[01:19] Shiber[GS]> we have no problems lending you some of our iron for several turns of mass upgrades
[01:19] Panzer32[GoW]> I will have to leave in about 10 minutes
[01:19] Donegeal[GoW]> ok... we have given you lots of info on our situation... now lets get some feedback...
[01:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> That is good to know
[01:19] Shiber[GS]> Donegeal[GoW], with pleasure
[01:19] zeit> I have some idea, for an iron trade... wait a bit
[01:20] Donegeal[GoW]> I'll tell you what I know from our conversation...
[01:21] Donegeal[GoW]> You have floodplains, desert and mountians...
[01:21] Donegeal[GoW]> and if the map generator is consistant.. plains as well
[01:21] Shiber[GS]> yes
[01:22] Shiber[GS]> additionally, we have grasslands, some hills, some mountains and some river tiles
[01:22] Donegeal[GoW]> I don't know about grasslands, but I figure that you have plenty of workers mining those mountians...
[01:22] Shiber[GS]> we have a lot of workers, yes
[01:23] Donegeal[GoW]> ok... tell us about the border area... forces seen and such...
[01:24] zeit> what do you say about this proposal, WRT your iron problem?
[01:24] zeit> What if we both build harbors, as fast as viable, GoW will give some workers to GS, to speed the construction (by integration), and will also promise to buy Iron for several turns.
[01:25] Donegeal[GoW]> We don't like giving up our workers...
[01:25] Donegeal[GoW]> it is one of the advantages we have over ND...
[01:25] zeit> yes, but won't you have to waste on a colony?
[01:25] Shiber[GS]> any other payment will do, as long as our team agrees on it
[01:25] Shiber[GS]> we have no intention of blackmailing you, though
[01:26] Shiber[GS]> there's not much we can ask for only a few turns long supply of iron
[01:26] Donegeal[GoW]> um... you guys are avoiding the border question I ask just a bit agao...
[01:27] Shiber[GS]> Donegeal[GoW], i wanted to sort out the iron question
[01:27] Shiber[GS]> there's no need to get nasty
[01:27] zeit> well, let me just say we see nothing suspicious of on the border
[01:27] zeit> to be supsicious of
[01:27] Donegeal[GoW]> hehehe... Shiber...think back to my posts to ET... you will know when I get nasty...
[01:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Iron yes - We would be interested in a backup supply of iron
[01:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We will present any deal to our team - no probs
[01:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> I am sure GF would have some ideas for payment methds
[01:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> methods
[01:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> we are interested in somehow using you to keep Vox off our back, if war breaks out
[01:29] Shiber[GS]> anyway, i take it that the question of iron has been resolved. currently such a deal cannot be carried out, since we don't have a harbor yet
[01:29] zeit> we'll check out things as well- first of all when can we finnish a harbor...
[01:29] Shiber[GS]> we'll speed up construction though, if you get into war
[01:29] zeit> cross posted
[01:30] Shiber[GS]> lol
[01:30] Panzer32[GoW]> I have to go now; keep up the good work guys
[01:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> this is good to know
[01:30] Shiber[GS]> cya Panzer32[GoW]
[01:30] zeit> see ya, bye
[01:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> cya panzer
[01:30] *** Panzer32[GoW] has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[01:30] Donegeal[GoW]> crap... I forgot a meeting I have to go to...
[01:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> NP Donegeal
[01:30] Donegeal[GoW]> I have 30 mins before it starts!
[01:30] zeit> well, isn't this an important meeting?
[01:30] *** Donegeal[GoW] is now known as Donegeal
[01:31] Shiber[GS]> this doesn't come to say that we are delaying the harbor, it's just low priority on our list. surely you agree that harbors aren't very important in the earlier stages of the game
[01:31] Donegeal> later
[01:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> cya
[01:31] *** Donegeal has quit IRC (Quit: )
[01:31] Shiber[GS]> cya Donegeal
[01:31] Shiber[GS]> damn, he left before i could say goodbye...
[01:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We will read the log
[01:31] Shiber[GS]> lol, i hope so
[01:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We are interested in harbors because of our iron
[01:32] zeit> Of course, do you have one?
[01:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Actually - I dont know - I dont think so yet
[01:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We havent even found iron yet on a island so....little reason for one
[01:33] Shiber[GS]> now that we have reached some sort of an agreement on the future question of iron trade, you may wanna speed up construction of that harbor of yours
[01:33] Shiber[GS]> our team might want to do the same too
[01:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> We shall so
[01:34] Shiber[GS]> anyway, that's something we need to bring back to the private forum
[01:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Us as well
[01:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> IS there anything else that needs to be brought up ?
[01:34] Shiber[GS]> Hot_Enamel[GoW], we'd be happy to answer any questions you might have left
[01:35] zeit> if possible..
[01:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> 1:30am here - Wife is going to wake up very pissed soon
[01:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> No more Q's from me
[01:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Ask away if you have any
[01:36] zeit> looks like we have none...
[01:36] Shiber[GS]> i wouldn't want to upset your wife
[01:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> thanks you
[01:36] zeit> so i think you can go back to bed.
[01:36] Shiber[GS]> one thing though
[01:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Zeit - thanks for the chat
[01:36] zeit> NP- I hope this helped easing the tension
[01:37] Shiber[GS]> we understand that GoW has been frustrated with tech trade
[01:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Yes it did - for me anyway
[01:37] Shiber[GS]> that is to say, you didn't like some of our refusals
[01:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> It was annoying yes - It will still be annoying
[01:38] Shiber[GS]> i hope that now you understand that this was due to agreements that were signed between GS and Vox before GS had any contact with the outside world, and that they covered most of the ancient age
[01:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> You may find us offering more restrictions of tech trades
[01:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> so we get the best deal from you & vox
[01:38] Shiber[GS]> of course, GS would be very interested in exchanging notes on research in the next age
[01:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> 4 sure
[01:38] Shiber[GS]> so keep your eyes and ears open
[01:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Personal Note - You guys and your family stay safe ok
[01:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Keep your heads down
[01:39] Shiber[GS]> thanks )
[01:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> no problems
[01:39] zeit> if we don'y inject atropine, it will be just fine
[01:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]>
[01:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> At leastyou have your sense of humor
[01:39] zeit> left
[01:39] zeit>
[01:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Ok - gotta go
[01:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> Thanks again
[01:39] Shiber[GS]> cya Hot_Enamel[GoW]
[01:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]> bye
Session Close: Sat Mar 22 01:40:10 2003

[Hot_Enamel]

Executive Summary

All in all...we did not get any exciting revelations about GS. But the chat was interesting for maybe these points only.

They definitely wanted to ensure us that they did not have a MPP or NAP with Vox. I tend to believe them, but the best part about this, is that if Vox does do something stupid, we can attack them without having to be worried about GS….(Maybe )
They are not concerned about a mass warrior -> immortal upgrade, which still concerns me that they may know something of Vox’s expansion plans.

They have a tech agreement, and a border agreement, with Vox, which I get the feeling may expire at the beginning of the new age.

They are not going to trade their map - ever - so we might as well forget about asking them for it.

They are interested in offering us a protection pact. They do not want it to go both ways – ie they will help if Vox attacks GoW, but they want us to stay off their continent if Vox attacks GS.

They are willing to be a backup source of iron, but harbors are not a priority, so we would have to “help them out” with the expense.

They seem keen to perhaps align with us in the “next age” with regards to tech

[01:38] Shiber[GS]> of course, GS would be very interested in exchanging notes on research in the next age