Announcement

**UnOrthOdOx** · March 17, 2003, 11:23

Personally, I am not TOO concerned about Lego at present. Let them be builder over there, let us take care of RP, see what is going on with GS/Vox, then decide what needs to be done with Lego. Im sure GS/Vox will recognize the threat they pose as well, perhaps GS/Vox, ND, and GoW can take out Lego after RP is dealt with?

What do they want for Construction?

Yes, they are the long term threat. I think we need to focus on the IMMEDIATE threats, though, namely RP and the GS/Vox alliance.

**GhengisFarb™** · March 17, 2003, 11:27

We are in the chatroom, Vondrak is offering to sell us Republic and Construction in approx 15 turns for 250 gold.

**GhengisFarb™** · March 17, 2003, 12:51

Here's the offer from Vondrak:

Following our chat, here goes Legoland's trade proposal:

1) Legoland will sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will agree to not resell Currency to anybody else for 20 turns.

2a) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to GoW for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. GoW will agree to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns.

2b) Legoland will sell Construction to GoW for 190 gold one turn before Republic becomes available for trading. Legoland will gift Republic to GoW on the next turn for free. GoW will agree to not resell these two techs to anybody else for 20 turns.

Choose whichever of 2a/2b suits you better.

Respectfully,
Radek aka vondrack
President of Legoland

**GhengisFarb™** · March 17, 2003, 13:26

Log of chat with Vondrack:

Session Start: Mon Mar 17 16:08:08 2003
Session Ident: GhengisFarb
[16:08] hello!
[16:08] hello
[16:08] glad to meet you again

[16:08] hope we will make another good deal today
[16:08] I would have thought you would have discovered all of your goody huts
[16:08]

[16:09] saved for "bad times"
[16:09] we anticipated this possibility and gambled a bit
[16:09] we are unfreakingbelievably lucky with huts this game
[16:09] 6 techs
[16:09] legoland huts seem to generate lots of techs
[16:09] ok, do you have anything to say before I start talking about the deal?
[16:10] no
[16:10] fine
[16:10] so let me start
[16:10] sorry, I will be a bit more detailed to make sure you get the whole picture, ok?
[16:10] ok
[16:10] it is of course ok to post a log of this chat in your private forum
[16:10] so:
[16:10] first, our reasons:
[16:11] 1) you were fair to us, we want to be fair, too
[16:11] you gave us an excellent catch-up deal and a fair deal on Polytheism - we remember that
[16:11] 2) we want to help keep the balance of power of Bob
[16:12] currently, we believe the best way to achieve that is to support you
[16:12] 3) we want to work out a win-win deal including you, us, and GS (possible Voxes - not sure about them, though)
[16:12] second, our goals:
[16:13] 1) save gold/beakers wasted researching something we already have
[16:13] splitting the profit in a fair way between the two of us
[16:13] 2) properly time the transition to the medieval times
[16:13] 2a) we have a barb problem here, so we need to prepare for that
[16:14] 2b) to offer a fair deal to GS, too (on the Republic), we want them to go medieval at the same time
[16:14] this is for what leads us to offer the deal
[16:14] now the deal
[16:14] 1) we suggest that you shut down your research completely, stockpiling cash
[16:15] 2) as soon as we get Currency (9-10 turns), we will sell it to you for 60 gold - this part is optional
[16:15] 3) as soon as GS discovers the Republic, we trade Republic and Construction for gold to you
[16:15] the exact sum to be negotiaited
[16:16] the exact timeline would be like this:
[16:16] 1) 9-10 turns from now: you get Currency from us for 60 gold (no resale clause, please)
[16:16] ...though we may be fine with you reselling it to RPers later on, sharing some part of the profit
[16:17] 2) the turn before GS discovers Republic, we offer Construction and "accept"
[16:17] 3) you counter with the gold and "accept"
[16:17] 4) the turn after we gift you Republic
[16:17] well
[16:17] that's probably it
[16:17] hope I haven't forgotten about anything
[16:18] How much gold are we looking at for Currency and Republic?
[16:18] we would be looking for an arrangement that leaves you with Curr+Constr+Rep plus some gold
[16:18] try coming up with a figure
[16:18] you know best how much you can save
[16:18] by shutting the research down
[16:18] Are you giving Currency to GS?
[16:19] yes, that would be part of the deal
[16:19] but they would get Constr only afer trading the Rep to us
[16:19] So Vox will already have it for free
[16:19] so you and them go medieval at the same moment
[16:19] nope
[16:19] GS would not be allowed to trade it Voxes
[16:19] Vox and GS are the same team.
[16:20] GS would get Curr+Constr on condition they would not resell it
[16:20] I believe they would accept
[16:20] They share everything. Vox will simply tell you they are already researching Construction and are only 1 turn from finishing it to cover the fact that GS will give it to them
[16:21] we would not accept such approach
[16:21] What can you do? Once one of them gets it it is out of your hands
[16:21] this deal effectively helps GS keep pace with others as far as going medieval is concerned, so I believe they would accept it
[16:22] sure, that's a matter of trust
[16:22] it would be negotiated before
[16:22] in advance, I mean
[16:22] They will but Vox will still get it from them. Vox generates a free tech when it advances to the next era and we were negotiating trading Construction for that tech.
[16:23] well, their free tech would also be part of that deal
[16:23] we suppose you would get it from them paying with the rest of the saved cash
[16:23] so you eventually end up with Curr+Constr+Rep+freetech+nogold
[16:24] we might make it part of the deal (that they will sell it to you)
[16:25] We simply won't have that much gold. This would cost us over 650 gold and we simply don't have it.
[16:25] 650 gold? try giving me the formula, please
[16:26] GS/Vox won't sell these techs for anything less than 150 gold each, probably more.
[16:26] You want 60 gold for Currency and probably 250 are so for Construction/Republic.
[16:27] probably less
[16:27] We can continue to research Construction and get it (4 turns after you would have given it to us) for far less than we can purchase it for.
[16:27] also, what techS?
[16:27] just Voxes' free tech, right?
[16:28] Yes, assuming we buy Republic from you.
[16:28] we would be looking for something like 250 gold for all the techs we'd be supposed to deliver to you
[16:28] yo use the rest to get Voxes' free tech
[16:28] *you
[16:29] That's 310 gold and we are trying to save up to be able to upgrade when GS/Vox invade
[16:29] we would push a bit to make them accept whatever you would have remaining
[16:29] hmmm... how much would you be able to save?
[16:29] I do not expect GS to be done with Rep earlier than in 15 turns, probably few more
[16:30] Then we have construction by then because we finish it in 15 or less turns.
[16:30] brb - phone call
[16:32] back
[16:32] ok
[16:32] not if you shut your reserach down
[16:32] stockpiling cash
[16:32] nobody else would be able to get Constr earlier
[16:33] and if we make it 18 turns, you just get 3 more turns to save cash
[16:33] Why can't we purchase Construction now?
[16:33] you'd go medieval long before GS would - that we do not want to happen (not a good deal for them)
[16:34] we are trying to arrange a deal where everybody gains something
[16:34] We can't go medieval withou currency
[16:34] currency will be available no later than in 9-10 turns
[16:34] that is when we will have it (our own research)
[16:35] plus, as I said, we (Lego) need some time to prepare for the barb uprisings spawned once two teams go medieval
[16:36] You've got 9 turns, we would be willing to send some Horsemen to help with barbarians. We are trying to get them promoted to elite status on barbs but their isn't any frre space for barbs over here anymore.
[16:37] I am sorry this is unfortunately not an option
[16:37] Lego is a bit secretive about its land

[16:38] I will discuss this with my team, but am not sure they will accept it. Could you send me the complete offer in the form of a pm so that I can post in our forum for them to discuss.
[16:39] and keep in mind we want this trade to be fair to GS, too - if they are left stuck in ancient times, while we and you jump to mediaval, the price of Republic would go up
[16:39] well, I could... but would this chat not be enough?
[16:39] I mean
[16:39] it's not a problem, but I think I was pretty precise
[16:39] would save me some time
[16:40] nevermind, if you wish me to make it "official", I will
[16:40] WIth the timetable and gold amounts included in the pm as we discussed different options, this helps to avoid misunderstandings later. As our teams would simply have one concise pm to go by and not an entire log to sift through.
[16:40] ok, will do that shortly
[16:40] anything else to include?
[16:41] In a log some comments can be taken out of context.
[16:41] agreed, I will PM
[16:41] to make it clear - we do not have any response from GS yet (we PMed DeepO about 5 hours ago)
[16:42] but the deals with you and them and not 100% interdependent
[16:42] so I wanted to talk to you ASAP
[16:42] No rush, I don't understand why GS would necessarily be left in the ancient age. You could trade them Construction early for a safety deposit of gold (they did that to us) and then they would go Medieveal with the rest of us and give you Republic when they finish it for the safety deposit back.
[16:42] the problem with this is
[16:42] they they do go medieval
[16:43] but can't start researching anything, since still doing Republic
[16:43] they would be unhappy about that, I think
[16:43] *that they
[16:43] There are only 3 tech that can be researched in the medieval age, and there are 6 civs.
[16:43] correct
[16:44] which will make them even more sensitive about the issue, I think
[16:44] do not get me wrong, please
[16:44] this in not an attempt to lick GS' feet
[16:44] half the civs would have to research something else anyways, Monarchy and Republic are just as important as the first Medieval ones as they improve your science production.
[16:45] but we would like to form sort of a research coalition with you and GS
[16:46] The problem is if all 6 civs are trying ot research teh three techs at the beginning of the medieval age they war is almost unavoidable as three civs are no longer needed to advance the tech tree.
[16:46] well, this problem would emerge anyways, right?
[16:47] not if GS and Rp are researching the governents and three other civs are researching Medieval techs. That gives 5 civs something to research
[16:47] that would just delay the problem a bit, not solve it
[16:47] So you want to rush war between the civs?
[16:48] nope, I believe there is still room enough to cooperate
[16:48] 3 vs 3
[16:48] 4 vs 2
[16:48] without a war
[16:48] I admit I know little about how tense relations are
[16:48] among Bobians
[16:49] between Bobians and Estonias
[16:49] so I may be talking crap
[16:49] you tell me
[16:49] I think my team would be more interested in a deal for Construction and Currency and leave Republic out of it.
[16:50] well, we would still not sell Construction earlier
[16:50] and I want to avoid you researching it anyways
[16:50] How much would you want to sell Constuction and Currency for in 15 turns.
[16:51] I would have to consult, but the idea was that the Republic was thrown in basically as a free extra to make you happy about the deal
[16:51] at least IIRC
[16:52] So you would sell us Currency in 9 turns for 60 gold and Construction in 15 turns for 250 gold?
[16:52] nope 60+190
[16:52] 250 together
[16:52] Republic included
[16:53] I am pretty sure my team would agree to buy Currency for 60 gold in 9 turns.
[16:53] Republic included on condition we wait for GS, of course
[16:53] well, yes, we can make the deal on Currency independent
[16:53] that is an option - but we would ask for a no-whore clause
[16:53] That would assure you of some profit immediately for Currency.
[16:53] yes, that was our original intention
[16:54] since Currency will allow you to build mktplaces
[16:54] We would agree not to sell or trade it for anything.
[16:54] Currency would be provided ASAP
[16:54] Constr once the Rep becomes available
[16:54] I'm not sure how close ND is to finishing it though.
[16:54] me neither, but our intel indicated they would not get it earlier
[16:55] though the intel might have been wrong
[16:55] ND seem to be pretty weak research-wise
[16:55] That may be true they may have their tech rate reduced
[16:55] that's what I believ, too
[16:55] we believe their max res output is about 20 bpt
[16:55] and we donùt think they are researching at full speed
[16:55] don't
[16:56] either way, they would not be done earlier
[16:56] and if they were
[16:56] and offered a lower price
[16:56] I don't know their capital is on a heavily rivered area with luxuries.
[16:56] we would be able to accomodate you on the price
[16:56] Are you offering them Currency?
[16:56] not yet
[16:57] trying to find out how long it would take them to get it on their own
[16:57] as I said - we would not be able to guarantee we would have Currenecy before them, but we would be able to guarantee a fair deal on it
[16:57] 10 turns max is what I can guarantee
[16:58] My team may be willing to pay the 190 for Construction and Republic. But I am not sure.
[16:58] sure, I am not pushing this
[16:58] We have time to work out the deal for it.
[16:58] if I were you I would have to bring it to my teammates as well
[16:58] yep
[16:58] the crucial thing is
[16:58] for you
[16:58] to decide whether you shut your research down or not now
[16:59] Yes
[16:59] every turn spent researching Const is basically more or less wasted
[16:59] that's why I wanted to talk to you ASAP
[16:59] our intentions are genuine
[16:59] I will present this to my team.
[16:59] ok
[16:59] I will sum it up in a PM
[16:59] you should have it within 30 minutes
[16:59] also
[17:00] one more question...
[17:00] what are your plans regarding the galley that landed on the Mystery Island?
[17:01] we would appreciate if it does not press further westwards... not a request... just something we would appreciate
[17:02] just as we withdrew our galley from you coast
[17:02] *your
[17:03] It is most likely going to explore your coast.
[17:04] hmmm
[17:04] as I said...
[17:05] 1) GoW has no interests in attacking Legoland, we already are in the process of preparing to fight someone else
[17:06] we will consider it a gesture of good will, if it heads back home... but the decision is yours, I am in no way trying to request anything
[17:06] I am glad to hear you do not plan to go hostile towards us
[17:07] it should be mutually beneficial to cooperate
[17:07] errrr... what a crap

)
[17:07] We are also mapping out the Vox GS continent. We aren't landing anything just mapping out the coast.
[17:08] ok, unless you land a unit, there should be no problem
[17:09] even tough we would still... errrr... repeating myself

[17:09] not a big deal
[17:09] There won't be any units on it, it will be an empty galley
[17:09] ok
[17:09] Aro really wants to make a world map.
[17:10] LoL
[17:10] he really is into maps, isn't he?
[17:11] Yes
[17:11] I don't know how it will work since we are all different teams but I think he wants to make a world map for the main forum.
[17:11] btw
[17:11] just talking to my mate
[17:12] GS indicate they might have Rep on Turn 84
[17:12] that's the same time as we'd have Curr
[17:12] so the whole thing would be faster that I thought
[17:12] probably - need to verify that

**GhengisFarb™** · March 17, 2003, 13:27

Log of chat with Vondrack continued:

[17:13] But would you still give us Construction on Turn 84?
[17:13] yes, at the same time
[17:14] ok
[17:14] our goal is to make everybody involved get Curr+Constr+Rep within a two turn period
[17:14] just depending on how things work out
[17:14] probably on the same turn
[17:14] we might ask GS to give you Rep on the turn they discover it... dunno if it's any better for you
[17:16] When is Roleplay supposed to finish Monarchy, and have you made any offers to them about this deal? I assume I am not to mention this chat to anyone outside our team.
[17:16] no idea about when RPers finish Mon
[17:16] they were not made any offers
[17:16] and yes, keep this to your team only
[17:16] re: RPers
[17:16] we currently see limited opportunities to trade with them
[17:17] there is unfortunately kind of a shadow lying over our relations
[17:17] we DID make them an offer which seemed fair to us (not this deal, something different before we got Constr)
[17:17] Did something happen?
[17:17] they said it WAS fair
[17:17] but rejected it
[17:17] I would better not comment
[17:18] the fact is
[17:18] that our relations with you and GS are much better than with RPers
[17:18] keep this to yourself, please
[17:18] I told you early on they seem to be playing under the mind set that they are the human team and we are the AI teams. They don't quite seem to grasp that all of the teams are human.
[17:19] my personal impression is that they were expecting too much from a cooperation with Lego
[17:19] Are relations with the RPer are much better than with GS/Vox
[17:19] yes, much like if we were an AI civ
[17:19] hmmm... so you do not get well along with GS/Voxes?
[17:20] They are very antagonistic towards us. It is fairly obvious they are planning a joint invasion of GoW.
[17:20] hmmm... I can see why you do not like the idea of making the deal beneficial to them, too
[17:21] but keep in mind Lego is sort of "outside", so we do not really have any ties/problems with Estonians
[17:21] Once we reach the Medieval Age they will attack and try to destroy us before we can research Chivalry.
[17:21] do you think thay have means to?
[17:21] I mean... navy and such?
[17:22] They will probably shuttle forces across the strait.
[17:22] hmmm...
[17:22] I suppose Bobians would unite then?
[17:22] pushing them back to the sea
[17:22] i don't know.
[17:23] ok, I am going to finally finish the PM (working on it in parallel)
[17:24] the next step will be yours
[17:28] ok, it will probably be a day or two.
[17:28] it's up to you
[17:29] Just letting you know it won't be fully discussed today.

[17:29] okay
[17:29] also
[17:30] considering how early Rep should be available
[17:30] we might want to base the gold sum paid upon the number of turns to the conclusion of the deal
[17:30] feel free to come up with a reasonable idea
[17:30] I will include my original proposal
[17:31] 60+190
[17:31] I am not sure if you are aware of this so I am going to give you a heads up.
[17:33] This puts Lego in a VERY strong position. Historically, when a team gains a strong position other teams start devising plans to weaken it. IE, when ND advanced faster in tech due to its Expansionistic trait the other three civs formed a tech limitation deal against them until the techs were equal again.
[17:34] Lego is on an isolated continent, is in full control of Currency and Construction and stands to make lots of money. This is most likely going to set you up as a VERY BIG target.
[17:35] well, what we can do about that?

return Construction to the hut?

[17:35] we plant to be reasonable about future tech deals as well
[17:35] *plan
[17:36] No, I'm simply letting you know so you are prepared for very unfair offers other civs may make in the future.
[17:36] I understand. Thanks.
[17:36] here is the text of my PM so far:
[17:36] it looks so brief I am hesitating if it is complete:
[17:36] Following our chat, here goes Legoland's trade proposal:
[17:36] 1) Legoland will sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will agree to not resell Currency to anybody else for 20 turns.
[17:36] 2) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to GoW for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. GoW will agree to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns.
[17:37] ---
[17:37] what is missing?
[17:37] btw, the only money we would get would be from yourself, I think
[17:37] Like I said before GoW has no hostile plans towards Lego, it was our hope from the beginning that we could make some for of arrangement with Lego where we provided the Military and you provided the Science.
[17:37] yep, agreed
[17:37] would you have a look at the PM text, please?
[17:38] it looks so short...
[17:38] That sounds fine. I will do everyghing possible to convince my team to agree to it. The short treaties are the easiest to stick to.
[17:38] ok, will send it in a couple of minutes
[17:43] sent - I added an alternative to "2)" (just a technical change)... whatever suits your needs better
[17:43] ttyl
[17:43] Okay, something that may come up:
[17:45] more news
[17:45] just got a PM from ND
[17:45] they admit they will have Curr in like 20 turns
[17:45] We will basically be paying the amount it would have cost us to research Construction for Construction. Only we won't be able to trade it where we would if we finished researching it. Is there some possibility of reducing the cost since we are agreeing to not trade these techs to anyone?
[17:46] hmmm... what about getting the possibility to trade it to ND?
[17:46] also, you would be paying much less

Construction costs 20*24=480 beakers
[17:46] we ask for 250 for Curr+Constr+Rep
[17:47] that's fair even if we consider the tech cost discount
[17:47] based upon we get it already
[17:47] That might work, we should coordinate our efforts to work together so that we get teh maximium bang for the buck. We need to aquire Monarch from Roleplay and Monotheism from Vox and it would help if we didn't compete on price
[17:48] as I said, we might consider leaving it up to you to sell Constr to ND... but that is only my PERSONAL idea, not yet consulted with my team - so keep this in mind, please
[17:48] though my teammates usually agree with me evetually

[17:48] *eventually
[17:49] good, we'd sell them (ND) Currency, you would sell them Construction - that might work
[17:49] Since you get along with GS Lego could do all negotiations with them, and GoW could do all negotiations with RP. Basically we coudl play good tech trader/bad tech trader
[17:49] not sure about this
[17:49] RPers would probably feel offended if we were doing trade with them through GoW
[17:50] I know it makes little sense, considering what I said before
[17:50] but it is that way
[17:51] No, you don't understand. You still attempt to trade with them, you just offer GS the better deal, and we offer Lego the better deal. They are none the wiser and accept the better deal because they think its a bargain compared to what the other team offered them.
[17:51] Not Lego, RP
[17:51] I see
[17:51] that would still not work, I am afraid
[17:51] I am not at liberty to tell why

[17:51] but we might try it the other way round
[17:51] THAT would work perfectly, I think
[17:52] sorry for sounding so secretive - obligations to honor
[17:57] I understand. We have certain obligations that we can't discuss either.
[18:02] just posting our log in the Lego forum
[18:03] Do you actually have a log? If so could you email it to me as I am connected via Java.
[18:04] ok, I will
[18:04] give me a minute though
[18:07] what's your email?
[18:07] GhengisFarb@yahoo.com

**GhengisFarb™** · March 17, 2003, 13:38

Log of chat with Vondrack:

Session Start: Mon Mar 17 16:08:08 2003
Session Ident: GhengisFarb
[16:08] hello!
[16:08] hello
[16:08] glad to meet you again

[16:08] hope we will make another good deal today
[16:08] I would have thought you would have discovered all of your goody huts
[16:08]

[16:09] saved for "bad times"
[16:09] we anticipated this possibility and gambled a bit
[16:09] we are unfreakingbelievably lucky with huts this game
[16:09] 6 techs
[16:09] legoland huts seem to generate lots of techs
[16:09] ok, do you have anything to say before I start talking about the deal?
[16:10] no
[16:10] fine
[16:10] so let me start
[16:10] sorry, I will be a bit more detailed to make sure you get the whole picture, ok?
[16:10] ok
[16:10] it is of course ok to post a log of this chat in your private forum
[16:10] so:
[16:10] first, our reasons:
[16:11] 1) you were fair to us, we want to be fair, too
[16:11] you gave us an excellent catch-up deal and a fair deal on Polytheism - we remember that
[16:11] 2) we want to help keep the balance of power of Bob
[16:12] currently, we believe the best way to achieve that is to support you
[16:12] 3) we want to work out a win-win deal including you, us, and GS (possible Voxes - not sure about them, though)
[16:12] second, our goals:
[16:13] 1) save gold/beakers wasted researching something we already have
[16:13] splitting the profit in a fair way between the two of us
[16:13] 2) properly time the transition to the medieval times
[16:13] 2a) we have a barb problem here, so we need to prepare for that
[16:14] 2b) to offer a fair deal to GS, too (on the Republic), we want them to go medieval at the same time
[16:14] this is for what leads us to offer the deal
[16:14] now the deal
[16:14] 1) we suggest that you shut down your research completely, stockpiling cash
[16:15] 2) as soon as we get Currency (9-10 turns), we will sell it to you for 60 gold - this part is optional
[16:15] 3) as soon as GS discovers the Republic, we trade Republic and Construction for gold to you
[16:15] the exact sum to be negotiaited
[16:16] the exact timeline would be like this:
[16:16] 1) 9-10 turns from now: you get Currency from us for 60 gold (no resale clause, please)
[16:16] ...though we may be fine with you reselling it to RPers later on, sharing some part of the profit
[16:17] 2) the turn before GS discovers Republic, we offer Construction and "accept"
[16:17] 3) you counter with the gold and "accept"
[16:17] 4) the turn after we gift you Republic
[16:17] well
[16:17] that's probably it
[16:17] hope I haven't forgotten about anything
[16:18] How much gold are we looking at for Currency and Republic?
[16:18] we would be looking for an arrangement that leaves you with Curr+Constr+Rep plus some gold
[16:18] try coming up with a figure
[16:18] you know best how much you can save
[16:18] by shutting the research down
[16:18] Are you giving Currency to GS?
[16:19] yes, that would be part of the deal
[16:19] but they would get Constr only afer trading the Rep to us
[16:19] So Vox will already have it for free
[16:19] so you and them go medieval at the same moment
[16:19] nope
[16:19] GS would not be allowed to trade it Voxes
[16:19] Vox and GS are the same team.
[16:20] GS would get Curr+Constr on condition they would not resell it
[16:20] I believe they would accept
[16:20] They share everything. Vox will simply tell you they are already researching Construction and are only 1 turn from finishing it to cover the fact that GS will give it to them
[16:21] we would not accept such approach
[16:21] What can you do? Once one of them gets it it is out of your hands
[16:21] this deal effectively helps GS keep pace with others as far as going medieval is concerned, so I believe they would accept it
[16:22] sure, that's a matter of trust
[16:22] it would be negotiated before
[16:22] in advance, I mean
[16:22] They will but Vox will still get it from them. Vox generates a free tech when it advances to the next era and we were negotiating trading Construction for that tech.
[16:23] well, their free tech would also be part of that deal
[16:23] we suppose you would get it from them paying with the rest of the saved cash
[16:23] so you eventually end up with Curr+Constr+Rep+freetech+nogold
[16:24] we might make it part of the deal (that they will sell it to you)
[16:25] We simply won't have that much gold. This would cost us over 650 gold and we simply don't have it.
[16:25] 650 gold? try giving me the formula, please
[16:26] GS/Vox won't sell these techs for anything less than 150 gold each, probably more.
[16:26] You want 60 gold for Currency and probably 250 are so for Construction/Republic.
[16:27] probably less
[16:27] We can continue to research Construction and get it (4 turns after you would have given it to us) for far less than we can purchase it for.
[16:27] also, what techS?
[16:27] just Voxes' free tech, right?
[16:28] Yes, assuming we buy Republic from you.
[16:28] we would be looking for something like 250 gold for all the techs we'd be supposed to deliver to you
[16:28] yo use the rest to get Voxes' free tech
[16:28] *you
[16:29] That's 310 gold and we are trying to save up to be able to upgrade when GS/Vox invade
[16:29] we would push a bit to make them accept whatever you would have remaining
[16:29] hmmm... how much would you be able to save?
[16:29] I do not expect GS to be done with Rep earlier than in 15 turns, probably few more
[16:30] Then we have construction by then because we finish it in 15 or less turns.
[16:30] brb - phone call
[16:32] back
[16:32] ok
[16:32] not if you shut your reserach down
[16:32] stockpiling cash
[16:32] nobody else would be able to get Constr earlier
[16:33] and if we make it 18 turns, you just get 3 more turns to save cash
[16:33] Why can't we purchase Construction now?
[16:33] you'd go medieval long before GS would - that we do not want to happen (not a good deal for them)
[16:34] we are trying to arrange a deal where everybody gains something
[16:34] We can't go medieval withou currency
[16:34] currency will be available no later than in 9-10 turns
[16:34] that is when we will have it (our own research)
[16:35] plus, as I said, we (Lego) need some time to prepare for the barb uprisings spawned once two teams go medieval
[16:36] You've got 9 turns, we would be willing to send some Horsemen to help with barbarians. We are trying to get them promoted to elite status on barbs but their isn't any frre space for barbs over here anymore.
[16:37] I am sorry this is unfortunately not an option
[16:37] Lego is a bit secretive about its land

[16:38] I will discuss this with my team, but am not sure they will accept it. Could you send me the complete offer in the form of a pm so that I can post in our forum for them to discuss.
[16:39] and keep in mind we want this trade to be fair to GS, too - if they are left stuck in ancient times, while we and you jump to mediaval, the price of Republic would go up
[16:39] well, I could... but would this chat not be enough?
[16:39] I mean
[16:39] it's not a problem, but I think I was pretty precise
[16:39] would save me some time
[16:40] nevermind, if you wish me to make it "official", I will
[16:40] WIth the timetable and gold amounts included in the pm as we discussed different options, this helps to avoid misunderstandings later. As our teams would simply have one concise pm to go by and not an entire log to sift through.
[16:40] ok, will do that shortly
[16:40] anything else to include?
[16:41] In a log some comments can be taken out of context.
[16:41] agreed, I will PM
[16:41] to make it clear - we do not have any response from GS yet (we PMed DeepO about 5 hours ago)
[16:42] but the deals with you and them and not 100% interdependent
[16:42] so I wanted to talk to you ASAP
[16:42] No rush, I don't understand why GS would necessarily be left in the ancient age. You could trade them Construction early for a safety deposit of gold (they did that to us) and then they would go Medieveal with the rest of us and give you Republic when they finish it for the safety deposit back.
[16:42] the problem with this is
[16:42] they they do go medieval
[16:43] but can't start researching anything, since still doing Republic
[16:43] they would be unhappy about that, I think
[16:43] *that they
[16:43] There are only 3 tech that can be researched in the medieval age, and there are 6 civs.
[16:43] correct
[16:44] which will make them even more sensitive about the issue, I think
[16:44] do not get me wrong, please
[16:44] this in not an attempt to lick GS' feet
[16:44] half the civs would have to research something else anyways, Monarchy and Republic are just as important as the first Medieval ones as they improve your science production.
[16:45] but we would like to form sort of a research coalition with you and GS
[16:46] The problem is if all 6 civs are trying ot research teh three techs at the beginning of the medieval age they war is almost unavoidable as three civs are no longer needed to advance the tech tree.
[16:46] well, this problem would emerge anyways, right?
[16:47] not if GS and Rp are researching the governents and three other civs are researching Medieval techs. That gives 5 civs something to research
[16:47] that would just delay the problem a bit, not solve it
[16:47] So you want to rush war between the civs?
[16:48] nope, I believe there is still room enough to cooperate
[16:48] 3 vs 3
[16:48] 4 vs 2
[16:48] without a war
[16:48] I admit I know little about how tense relations are
[16:48] among Bobians
[16:49] between Bobians and Estonias
[16:49] so I may be talking crap
[16:49] you tell me
[16:49] I think my team would be more interested in a deal for Construction and Currency and leave Republic out of it.
[16:50] well, we would still not sell Construction earlier
[16:50] and I want to avoid you researching it anyways
[16:50] How much would you want to sell Constuction and Currency for in 15 turns.
[16:51] I would have to consult, but the idea was that the Republic was thrown in basically as a free extra to make you happy about the deal
[16:51] at least IIRC
[16:52] So you would sell us Currency in 9 turns for 60 gold and Construction in 15 turns for 250 gold?
[16:52] nope 60+190
[16:52] 250 together
[16:52] Republic included
[16:53] I am pretty sure my team would agree to buy Currency for 60 gold in 9 turns.
[16:53] Republic included on condition we wait for GS, of course
[16:53] well, yes, we can make the deal on Currency independent
[16:53] that is an option - but we would ask for a no-whore clause
[16:53] That would assure you of some profit immediately for Currency.
[16:53] yes, that was our original intention
[16:54] since Currency will allow you to build mktplaces
[16:54] We would agree not to sell or trade it for anything.
[16:54] Currency would be provided ASAP
[16:54] Constr once the Rep becomes available
[16:54] I'm not sure how close ND is to finishing it though.
[16:54] me neither, but our intel indicated they would not get it earlier
[16:55] though the intel might have been wrong
[16:55] ND seem to be pretty weak research-wise
[16:55] That may be true they may have their tech rate reduced
[16:55] that's what I believ, too
[16:55] we believe their max res output is about 20 bpt
[16:55] and we donùt think they are researching at full speed
[16:55] don't
[16:56] either way, they would not be done earlier
[16:56] and if they were
[16:56] and offered a lower price
[16:56] I don't know their capital is on a heavily rivered area with luxuries.
[16:56] we would be able to accomodate you on the price
[16:56] Are you offering them Currency?
[16:56] not yet
[16:57] trying to find out how long it would take them to get it on their own
[16:57] as I said - we would not be able to guarantee we would have Currenecy before them, but we would be able to guarantee a fair deal on it
[16:57] 10 turns max is what I can guarantee
[16:58] My team may be willing to pay the 190 for Construction and Republic. But I am not sure.
[16:58] sure, I am not pushing this
[16:58] We have time to work out the deal for it.
[16:58] if I were you I would have to bring it to my teammates as well
[16:58] yep
[16:58] the crucial thing is
[16:58] for you
[16:58] to decide whether you shut your research down or not now
[16:59] Yes
[16:59] every turn spent researching Const is basically more or less wasted
[16:59] that's why I wanted to talk to you ASAP
[16:59] our intentions are genuine
[16:59] I will present this to my team.
[16:59] ok
[16:59] I will sum it up in a PM
[16:59] you should have it within 30 minutes
[16:59] also
[17:00] one more question...
[17:00] what are your plans regarding the galley that landed on the Mystery Island?
[17:01] we would appreciate if it does not press further westwards... not a request... just something we would appreciate
[17:02] just as we withdrew our galley from you coast
[17:02] *your
[17:03] It is most likely going to explore your coast.
[17:04] hmmm
[17:04] as I said...
[17:05] 1) GoW has no interests in attacking Legoland, we already are in the process of preparing to fight someone else
[17:06] we will consider it a gesture of good will, if it heads back home... but the decision is yours, I am in no way trying to request anything
[17:06] I am glad to hear you do not plan to go hostile towards us
[17:07] it should be mutually beneficial to cooperate
[17:07] errrr... what a crap

)
[17:07] We are also mapping out the Vox GS continent. We aren't landing anything just mapping out the coast.
[17:08] ok, unless you land a unit, there should be no problem
[17:09] even tough we would still... errrr... repeating myself

[17:09] not a big deal
[17:09] There won't be any units on it, it will be an empty galley
[17:09] ok
[17:09] Aro really wants to make a world map.
[17:10] LoL
[17:10] he really is into maps, isn't he?
[17:11] Yes
[17:11] I don't know how it will work since we are all different teams but I think he wants to make a world map for the main forum.
[17:11] btw
[17:11] just talking to my mate
[17:12] GS indicate they might have Rep on Turn 84
[17:12] that's the same time as we'd have Curr
[17:12] so the whole thing would be faster that I thought
[17:12] probably - need to verify that

**Panzer32** · March 17, 2003, 16:35

sorry, I can't see who is saying what... I thought we were researching construction... did you tell him that?

What no trade clause came with the ND trade? 20 turns? I would rather trade with ND than Lego.

**Hot_Enamel** · March 17, 2003, 20:03

We should be wary of Lego.

Vondrak is a very smart guy. He would have deals tied up all over the place for this.

And just because he says they have tensions with RP...dont just believe it. RP & Lego have been talking for most of the game. Vondrak told me so in chat. RP have been spreading all sorts of propaganda about us and the other teams.

My guess is that...RP is pissed at Lego for meeting us and doing the massive tech trade. This would of screwed RP's grand plans of some psudo alliance.

But they will get over it....be wary of Lego & RP.

As for the particular's of the deal ????

I dont know...I am getting confused with who is doing what with who...I need to study the sav tonight and the central trade thread (I hope its up to date

)

I think that Lego will make out very well.
And we may be damned if we do, and damned if we dont take what they offer. We may have very little choice. Master Zen is the type of guy who could figure this crap all out. (He is waivering about joining us.) We really should authorise him ASAP and lock him in.

It is possible to screw Lego over.
Tell them we have declined their and release their deal to the public.
We can hurt Lego like they hurt us over the CoL trade.

There must be some reason for all the absolute security. They have a grand plan....I just cant see it yet while here at work.

**GhengisFarb™** · March 17, 2003, 20:40

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Master Zen is the type of guy who could figure this crap all out. (He is waivering about joining us.) We really should authorise him ASAP and lock him in.

I can't until MarkG answers my pm with the address of this website donegeal was talking about.

**Hot_Enamel** · March 17, 2003, 21:55

Thats OK - I know there are problems.

**Panzer32** · March 17, 2003, 21:55

It is possible to screw Lego over.
Tell them we have declined their and release their deal to the public.
We can hurt Lego like they hurt us over the CoL trade.

which deal? The one mentioned higher in the thread? The one with the 2a; 2b option? How would this hurt Lego?

As I see this game develop, I am seeing 3 factions emerging. The Vox-GS faction, the RP-Lego faction, and our ND-GoW faction. We need to get rid of RP soon, and thus control the continent. The offshore civs will not be able to fight with full effectiveness during our RP war, because they need galleys, and we can blockade them. We would then be the strongest alliance, since we control the largest continent.

**GhengisFarb™** · March 17, 2003, 22:01

I agree with Panzer32.

**realpolitic** · March 18, 2003, 16:34

War is going to get more expensive after Feudalism, and become cheaper after Chivalry.

A Massive trade deal will give everyone Feudalism sooner.

After we declare war, it will become hard to make peace. The limited war idea seems less viable with tensions this high without a Grand Alliance.

The winners of a 1 on 1 war are often the 4 teams on the sidelines.

We have more power with Chivalry.

Can't we all just get along(until Chivalry or at least for a while)?

One possible Legoland strategy -- might be to get Military Tradition First - we should watch for that.

**realpolitic** · March 18, 2003, 16:44

War is going to get more expensive after Feudalism, and become cheaper after Chivalry.

A Massive trade deal will give everyone Feudalism sooner.

After we declare war, it will become hard to make peace. The limited war idea seems less viable with tensions this high without a Grand Alliance.

The winners of a 1 on 1 war are often the 4 teams on the sidelines.

We have more power with Chivalry.

Can't we all just get along(until Chivalry or at least for a while)?

One possible Legoland strategy -- might be to get Military Tradition First - we should watch for that.

Announcement

HUGE MAJOR Announcement. Lego has Construction.

HUGE MAJOR Announcement. Lego has Construction.

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