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  • ND_GoW Treaty.

    From Mav-Son:

    Dear Gentlemen,

    Please excuse, that the government of ND could not react earlier to
    your
    contract proposal, based on the Apolyton-Chat discussions of yesterday.
    My Gov.
    darekill and Vicegov. borc send You the best regards.

    As a legal advisor of the people of ND, represented by Governor
    darekill and
    Vicegovernor borc, it is a special honor for me, to response to your
    draft.

    Our proposed changes/additions and changes are written into the text.
    My
    remarks are concentrated on the end of the text. In addition I have to
    inform
    You, that the treaty, as soon as it is fixed and signed, has to be
    ratified by
    our parliament.

    Feel free, to send Your answer and comments to this proposal to me or
    to all
    participants of the Chatroommeeting.

    Yours
    mav_son





    Contract between Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War.

    Both parties agree, that this treaty has to be handled confidentionally
    and
    is for eyes only. It is not allowed to talk about or to post any
    details in
    the public forum of Apolyton.

    As per the map titled Glory of War - Neu Demogyptica Territorial
    Agreement
    (territorymarked.jpg) which is attached to this document.

    1.
    ND is to found the city here fore refered to as "Irongard". Once this
    city,
    the Iron in its city radius and the two empires of Neu Demogyptia and
    the
    Glory of War are all connected, then a trade of Iron from Neu
    Demogyptia to the
    Glory of War is to be made. In game, it will say that this trade will
    expire
    in 20 turns. Once this time expires, the deal will be continued.
    The trade will continue until the Emipre of Spain (the Roleplay team)
    is
    eliminated. Then Neu Demogyptia will gift the city referred to as
    Irongrad to
    the Glory of War.

    2.
    The area of Lux Invicta shall be settled on the north coast by the
    Glory of
    War and on the East coast by Neu Demogyptia in order to prevent Vox
    Controli
    from settling on the Continent of Middle Bob. Again, upon the
    elimination on
    Spain, the cities in this area are all to be gifted to Glory of War.
    An adequate compensation for cities that will be giftet is subject to
    further negotiations.

    3.
    Neu Demogyptica and the Glory of War will declare war on the Roleplay
    team
    on the same turn. This turn is not yet decided, but it must be agreed
    to by
    both teams; latest ....... (?)
    At least 10 swordsmen from Neu Demogyptica and 10 horsemen from the
    Glory of
    War are to be used in attacking Roleplay. This is an absolute minimum,
    and
    it is expected that teams will produce more than this.

    4.
    a)
    Both teams agree to work together in technology research. Details will
    be
    worked out in a separate treaty.
    b)
    Limited trading will be allowed between both teams and Roleplay team.
    This
    will stay in effect until the simultaneous declaration of war on
    Roleplay.
    Every trade that either team makes with Roleplay must be agreed upon by
    both
    teams.

    5.
    A Right of Passage will be agreed to by both teams. This will not be an
    in
    game agreement, but one that allows the transport of troops through one
    another's territory.
    Neu Demogyptia will leave Glory of War worker stacks unmolested inside
    the
    cultural border of Neu Demogyptia to facilitate the clearing of the
    vast
    southern jungle.

    6.
    After the Roleplay team is defeated, the enitire continent will be
    scruitinized, and divided up by exactly 50%. This includes 50% of the
    tiles and 50% of
    the resources.

    7.
    This contract can be denounced by none of both teams before
    Roleplay-Team is
    defeated and the changing of towns has been done. After fullfilling the
    changes of towns, the contract can be denounced observing a 30
    turns-period of
    notice.



    Explanations:

    1.
    Your proposed b) is not necessary. This situation will never occur.

    2.
    As the building and support of new cities are very costfully, there
    must be
    a (later) discussion about some compensation

    3.
    Maybe the latest possible year to start the invasion should be fixed.

    4.
    As discussed, we should work together in tech. research.

    7.
    Every treaty has its backdoor to leave.

  • #2
    After fullfilling the
    changes of towns, the contract can be denounced observing a 30
    turns-period of
    notice.
    does the contract not end after the exchange of cities?
    Proud Member of the ISDG Apolyton Team; Member #2 in the Apolyton Yact Club.
    King of Trafalgar and Lord of all Isolationia in the Civ III PTW Glory of War team.
    ---------
    May God Bless.

    Comment


    • #3
      We should include a paragragh that requires them to continue to trade us iron, until we get Irongards cultural borders over it.
      Depending on their cultural stregth (they are religious) this may take a while.
      "No Comment"

      Comment


      • #4
        Well the treaty allows for ending the deal but doesn't require it at anytime. Won't our borders expand over the iron regardless of neu becasue it is in the city radius. If that is so this treaty is fine.
        Aggie
        The 5th President, 2nd SMC and 8th VP in the Civ3 Demogame. Also proud member of the GOW team in the PTW game. Peace through superior firepower.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't like them controlling all of the Iron, and then gracefully trading it to us... After the destruction of Spain, we would have very little leverage, if any, of obtaining or enforcing their end of the bargaining. They are in complete control of all resources that would be needed, as well as 1/2 the territory that is supposed to become ours later. We control nothing that they would want and couldn't take from us simply by controlling all the Iron.

          But then, I am a paranoid person anyway, and tend not to trust anyone...
          One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
          You're wierd. - Krill

          An UnOrthOdOx Hobby

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree with you Unortho...
            But I believe the boys had a lengthy chat (2.5hours) on this issue.

            ND made it clear, that they have a settler ready and they will settle Irongard, whether we like it or not.
            I think they are as worried about us, as we are about them. By holding Irongard, it is the carrot to ensure we attack RP and uphold our part of the agreement.

            I dislike allowing them to settle into Lux as well, but they are the ones who took it from Lux, and they have the force to back it up, so I feel we have little choice but to go along with the plan.

            I do believe however, that GF has plans to get another backup source of iron.

            Also, we will be upgrading units as soon as we can afford it, so there is little chance of they all of a sudden attacking and us having obsolete units.

            Also... Am I right or wrong...The Iron is not in the immediate 9 tiles of Irongard. It is on the next tile ring. I thought this "ring" of tiles was open to cultural crush from another civ ?

            Finally...
            I dont like it, but I think we have no other choice but to accept to deal.
            Essential to our plan, is securing another backup source of Iron from another civ, or by colony in the deep south.
            "No Comment"

            Comment


            • #7
              If a tile is in the city radius it will automatically go to that civ, unles another civ puts a city nearby. Thus if the iron is in the city radius or irongrad it will be our once we have built a temple and get 10 culture, unless nd builds a city that either has it in the 1st ring or builds a city that has it in the 2nd ring but with higher culture.
              Aggie
              The 5th President, 2nd SMC and 8th VP in the Civ3 Demogame. Also proud member of the GOW team in the PTW game. Peace through superior firepower.

              Comment


              • #8
                Some more suggestions...

                Point 1
                "The trade will continue until the Emipre of Spain (the Roleplay team) is eliminated."
                I suggest we include this "or if a mutual agreement is made to end the war early. Or it becomes unviable to continue the war (ie chasing a galley)

                This will mean they have to gift us Irongard if RP manages to pull a rabbit out of a hat and defeats both of us...or possibly gets a settler off onto a galley. Technically they are not destroyed so ND will not have to gift us the city.

                "An adequate compensation for cities that will be giftet is subject to further negotiations."
                This is too open ended. Decide on a price now or we may end up with very different valuation of how much cities cost.
                Work out compensation now ($/settler, $/worker, $/improvement) and agree to it.
                I suggest we include.."valuations of cities are to be finalised before war is declared. Non-agreement on a valuation method can allow either team to void this contract"
                This will ensure that we both work hard to come to an agreement now, and it not left untill after the war.

                "This turn is not yet decided, but it must be agreed
                to by both teams; latest ....... (?)"
                I agree with this...can we work out how long before we can produce our quota of horsemen ? The speed at which tech is being researched, we could end up fighting with UU's


                Finally... this should not be included in the contract...but within our warplans, can we get ND scout/s to to move ahead of our horsemen. We have to travel further than ND, and we dont want to be caught out.
                Last edited by Hot_Enamel; February 20, 2003, 09:47.
                "No Comment"

                Comment


                • #9
                  I agree with HE's additions, but we need to be clear that we will only pay for the improvements WE recieve. Them building temples doesn't help us any since cultural buildings can't be transferred. (well, I'm not sure about gifting cultural buildings, but I think that still applies)
                  One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
                  You're wierd. - Krill

                  An UnOrthOdOx Hobby

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Counter Proposal

                    This puts some clarification/stuff that we want in the contract.

                    _____________________________

                    Contract between Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War.

                    Both parties agree that this treaty has to be handled confidentionally and is for our eyes only. Neither party is allowed to talk about this or to post any details about this in the public forum of Apolyton.

                    As per the map titled Glory of War - Neu Demogyptica Territorial Agreement (territorymarked.jpg) which is attached to this document.

                    1. ND is to found the city here fore refered to as "Irongard". Once this city, the iron in its city radius and the two empires of Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War are all connected, then a trade of Iron from Neu Demogyptia to the Glory of War is to be made. In game, it will say that this trade will expire in 20 turns. Once this time expires, the deal will be continued. The trade will continue either until the Emipre of Spain (the Roleplay team) is eliminated, or if a mutual agreement is made to end the war early. Then Neu Demogyptia will gift the city referred to as Irongard to the Glory of War.

                    2. The area of Lux Invicta shall be settled on the north coast by the Glory of War and on the East coast by Neu Demogyptia in order to prevent Vox Controli from settling on the Continent of Bob. Again, upon the elimination of Spain, the cities in this area are all to be gifted to Glory of War. An adequate compensation for cities that will be giftet is subject to further negotiations. Valuations of cities are to be finalised before war is declared on Roleplay. Non-agreement on a valuation method will allow either team to void this contract.

                    3. Neu Demogyptica and the Glory of War will declare war on the Roleplay team on the same turn. This turn is not yet decided, but it must be agreed to by both teams at least 20 turns beforehand or later if mutually agreed upon. At least 10 swordsmen from Neu Demogyptica and 10 horsemen from the Glory of War are to be used in attacking Roleplay. This is an absolute minimum, and it is expected that teams will produce more than this.

                    4. a) Both teams agree to work together in technology research. Details will be worked out in a separate treaty.
                    b) Limited trading will be allowed between both teams and Roleplay team. This will stay in effect until the simultaneous declaration of war on Roleplay. Every trade that either team makes with Roleplay must be agreed upon by both teams.

                    5. A Right of Passage will be agreed to by both teams. This will not be an in game agreement, but one that allows the transport of troops through one another's territory. Neu Demogyptia will leave Glory of War worker stacks unmolested inside the cultural border of Neu Demogyptia to facilitate the clearing of the vast southern jungle.

                    6. After the Roleplay team is defeated, the enitire continent will be scruitinized, and divided up by exactly 50%. This includes 50% of the tiles and 50% of the resources.

                    7. This contract cannot be denounced by either team before the Roleplay-Team is defeated and the changing of towns has been done. After fullfilling the changes of towns, the contract can be denounced observing a 30 turns-period of notice.

                    8. There will be a nonagression treaty in place between th Glory of War and Neu Demogyptia for the duration of this agreement.

                    Reasons:

                    1. added wording letting us mutually agree to stop war - since we both agree, why would we continue war?

                    2. This will ensure that we both work hard to come to an agreement now, and it not left untill after the war.

                    3. Optimally, we will get our unique units before the war with Roleplay. As we do not know the date that we will get them, we cannot commit to a date this early on.

                    7. just a question - does the treaty not end after the change of cities and the defeat of Roleplay?

                    8. Just in case it is not understood by the other points.
                    Last edited by Panzer32; February 22, 2003, 10:14.
                    Proud Member of the ISDG Apolyton Team; Member #2 in the Apolyton Yact Club.
                    King of Trafalgar and Lord of all Isolationia in the Civ III PTW Glory of War team.
                    ---------
                    May God Bless.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aggie
                      Well the treaty allows for ending the deal but doesn't require it at anytime. Won't our borders expand over the iron regardless of neu becasue it is in the city radius. If that is so this treaty is fine.
                      Aggie
                      Yes, it will and the Ironguard will not grow very fast due to the terrain.

                      Panzer, could you bold the changes you made so we can see where the differences are?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sorry for my lack of participating in this discussion. I was at work for an extra 6 hours today. I have been up since 6 am on Wednesday and its 1:15 pm on Thursday. I'm pooped. I'm going to bed. I am sure you all this well in hand.

                        As for them not following through with this deal, I think that we will have a larger military by the end of the RP war. We will have more productive cities then they due to the Jungle. They will have no choice but to give us what we want.

                        anyway... I'll go vote in the poll now then
                        Founder of The Glory of War, CHAMPIONS OF APOLYTON!!!
                        '92 & '96 Perot, '00 & '04 Bush, '08 & '12 Obama, '16 Clinton, '20 Biden, '24 Harris

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The treaty plus amendments sound good. Since there may not be an alternative them controlling the Iron, I suggest we send out galleys to secure trade routes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bolded ammendments, as GF suggested.

                            Anything else that needs changing before we ship it off to ND?
                            Proud Member of the ISDG Apolyton Team; Member #2 in the Apolyton Yact Club.
                            King of Trafalgar and Lord of all Isolationia in the Civ III PTW Glory of War team.
                            ---------
                            May God Bless.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Are we waiting for our UU's ? Or are we using Horsemen & Swords ?

                              30 turns is a long wait.

                              I would suggest that if we are still unable to calculate a time when we will be ready. Then change it back to "a mutually agreed time"

                              And just send a memo to ND that we are still working up plans on when / how to attack, and we will let them know our recommended invasion date soon.

                              But we would still like to set up a agreement now.

                              If the war chat with ND included them talking about using swords, then I think they would rather go to war very soon. And well before they get their UU.

                              Regs
                              "No Comment"

                              Comment

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