Announcement

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:40

Originally, these emails were to be dialogue between Togas and myself to provide groundwork for diplomatic agreement between out two teams so that trade deals could be worked out faster and often I did not have time to post a discussion in our forum before I sent it off which is why many of them state something to the effect of "not official" or "do not tell the rest of the team" as they weren't approved of by the team and I didn't want him replying "we agree to this deal" to Panzer32 and Panzer32 feeling I was undermining his authority and not having a clue what they were referring to.

Then as Togas became more and more untrustworthy I began posting them in the forum.

Email from Togas on December 22:

Ghengis,

Our analysis indicates that there should be around 2 civs between us,
or 2 civs
that are closer to us than you. Of course, it's really just a guess
until we
meet more civs. As you can see, one of our scouts are headed our way,
would you
guys like to move south-east and try to meet us half way?

If we do have civs between us, and I expect that we do, I think we
definately
should work together to narrow the competition down a bit. My team is
a little
gunshy when it comes with working with GoW, but since we're not a
democracy ...
You get the idea. With enough incentives and a few cracks of the
whip,
anything is possible.

Anyhow, as one player to another, I'd like to keep discussing a
possible alliance
later on as the map shapes up and as we find a few more civs. And if
you guys do
get serious about a possible "sandwich" maneuver, contact adaMada and
we'll work
out something formal. He's on top of things for me and does a pretty
good job.

--Togas

> We contacted the Demogyptians several turns ago and
> they have contacted a civ other than us.
>
> If they are between us do we want to coordinate some
> sort of sandwich exercise to a squish them between us?
>
> (This is non-diplomatic so don't mention this to our
> two ambassadors.)

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:43

Email from Togas on December 24:

Jason,

> The Demogyptians already have at least two cities,
> must have found one from a goodie hut.

Are you sure? Their score hasn't increased at all.

Do you guys have any idea where they're located?

--Togas

Email from Togas on December 25:

Jason,

This turn it just changed. Neu Dem now has the highest score of any
team.
You're right about the city. How did you guys know? Did you see them
get it?

Also sounds like they're right between the two of us. This could lead
to a very
promising joint-offensive against them in the future. It's too early
now, but we
will definately have to plan for this soon.

Well, as soon as we actually find those guys!

--Tom

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:45

Email from Togas on December 26:

Jason,

We have silks. We have recently uncovered spices, so we may be very
close to Neu
Dem's territory.

I know my guys are going to be VERY pleased to hear you have wines.
We've been
drinking this barley brew that's a little intoxicating, but nothing
compared to
the potency and flavor of a good wine.

--Togas

> We saw the settler build the city and it was moving
> TOWARDS the capital not away from it which is why it
> was probably from a hut. They have a spice resource
> near them. Do you have an abundance of any luxuries
> near you? We have 5 wines and 1 gem.

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:46

Email from Togas on December 30:

Jason,

Just got back from my vacation last night. Things are certainly
getting
interesting. I have told adaMada to send your people an urgent message
about
meeting up. We need to meet up soon as our nation has met ND and they
are making
a good offer for Alphabet. I'd prefer not to enrich them any more than
I have
to.

Are you guys pinned into a corner? Do you have more land to your west?
We're
situated on the south-eastern corner of the map and still trying to get
a better
idea of what is north and what is west of us, but we've found ND in the
process
of heading towards you guys.

Anyhow, we'll stall negotiations with ND for a few turns but not too
long. Have
your ambassador get back to ada ASAP and send someone south along the
western
coastline to meet up with our warrior who will be headed north.

Also note: We have researched Bronze. If you don't have that, we could
have a
very profitable 3 for 3 trade ... assuming, of course, we don't give in
and trade
with someone else.

--Togas

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:48

Email from Togas on January 1:

Jason,

We've also contacted Lux. We just need to contact you guys. If you
send a
warrior along the coastline you'll meet our guy. He's in the jungle
headed
north.

You want a 4 way pact? Frankly, I don't understand why. This is a far
too
peaceful move from you guys. I recall you proposing to us a join
alliance
against ND, the team between us, and I agreed that it would be a good
idea.
However, one my guys send me a PM today saying that you thought we were
going to
join up with ND against you? And that you told him that was the
impression I
gave you???

We need to get on the same page here. There's going to be an early war
of some
sort and someone is going to have to be the victim. My people could
get involved
or we could stay out. Just let me know because I think we could be a
very useful
military ally to you guys in wars with either of your neighbors.

--Togas

> I'm proposing a Quad Pact to my team where each of our
> four civs would research one tech and give it to the
> other three at completion of research.
>
> In this way we would each get three techs in return
> for researching one.
>
> We are currently researching Horseback Riding, which
> one are you researching?

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:49

Email from Togas on January 2:

Jason,

Deal is still on. Funny thing is, we have a warrior on the WEST coast
headed up
towards you guys. We figured that would be faster, you send one to the
EAST
coast! It's OK, we have another warrior nearby. He's on a mountain on
the east
coast just south of a gems deposit, and he's headed north.

That image you sent us ... we haven't gone that far north yet. If you
keep going
south and we keep going north we should meet in 2-3 turns.

--Togas

--- Jason Farber wrote:
> The trade is still on right?
>
> We'll give you The Wheel and Warrior Code for Alphabet
> and whatever the other thing was Panzer was
> negotiating.
>
> If you see some desert on the eastern coast we are on
> the western edge of it.

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:51

Email from Togas on January 2:

Jason,

This is an excellent arrangement. I believe we can agree to doing this
sort of
limited tech-trade. I know your people plan to take a more warlike
path, so mine
would be happy to take care of the more "intellectual" pursuits. We
are
currently working on Writing, which we anticipate having in 20 turns or
so.

Have your official diplomat contact adaMada to work out a formal deal.
He's very
good in that department.

We get the feeling Lux doesn't like ND, but Lux isn't the most
communicative of
teams. AdmiralPJ never writes us back. Trip hinted in general chat
about how ND
cannot be trusted, though. What sort of land deal was broken? Are all
three of
you "northern" nations going to work out a settlement deal or will it
devolve
into war?

--Togas

--- Jason Farber wrote:
> We have one hugging the east side of Demogyptia's
> borders also so either we'll meet in the East or the
> West.
>
> I am assuming you are researching Writing.
>
> We are researching Horseback Riding if you let us know
> what you are researching we may be able to lock a
> trade in for the techs we are currently researching
> with the following clause:
>
> We won't trade the tech you traded us if you don't
> trade the tech we trade you. This will give each of
> us full control over the tech we researched.
>
> Lux apparently had ND break a land agreement with them
> and isn't too happy with ND right now.

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:54

Email from Togas on January 3:

Jason,

Our east coast team just sighted that desert on the east coast. We're
on a
mountain to the south of it. I think we'll meet next turn.

Our west team is west of ND's capital city. We have it in our sights.

--Togas

Email from Togas on January 3:

Jason,

What the hell?! Don't you guys have any patience? You'd rather make a
deal with
ND than with us?

We just wasted 5+ turns of TWO of our scouts to try to urgently contact
you guys,
and we told Lux that we had aquired Warrior Code from you, so we didn't
need it
from them. Hell, we TURNED DOWN other nations to trade with you guys
only to
discover that your people don't have the same respect for agreements
with us as
you just got Bronze working and are now trying to tell adaMada that the
deal has
to be changed!

And all this time you've been sending us emails confirming that the
"deal was
still on", leading us on, so all the while we held to the deal and
didn't buy
either tech from anyone else because we agreed we would buy it from
you.

This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you
expect us
to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will
think twice
before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.

--Togas

--- Jason Farber wrote:
> The trade is still on right?
>
> We'll give you The Wheel and Warrior Code for Alphabet
> and whatever the other thing was Panzer was
> negotiating.
>
> If you see some desert on the eastern coast we are on
> the western edge of it.

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 18:57

Email from Togas on January 4:

Jason,

You need to talk to your people to see what they're telling us before
you go off
the handle. I wrote you after Panzer sent a message to adaMada stating
that you
just received one of the techs we were going to trade you, Bronze
Working, and
that the deal would have to be redone.

He informed us that "It seems like our warriors are very close together
now, but
our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new
meeting
deal together with you."

adaMada posted his message to my forum and asked me what we should do
now.

As you should know, we had planned to give your team Alphabet AND
Bronze Working
for Wheel and Warrior Code. However, since your team aquired Bronze
working, the
deal would, in his words, have to be redone.

We turned down a deal with Lux for the same techs we had agreed to
trade to you.
We have a contact with them and could have made such a deal at any time
this
week, but chose not to. You can understand why this would upset me.
You can
understand why I immediately wrote to you.

I recontacted Lux this evening to see if they would reconsider their
offer to us.
Trip informed me that they will. However, I made it perfectly clear
to him that
I would only take their offer IF things could not be worked out with
your team.

Therefore, you have a decision to make. Make ammends for this mistake
... I'm
sure it wasn't intentional. I'm sure it's one of those situations
where one hand
isn't watching the other. Get us back to the bargaining table and make
a promise
that your team can keep. Or, tell us to f*ck off and we'll go trade
Warrior Code
and Wheel for Alphabet to Lux Invicta.

Either way we get the techs we need. However, only you or Lux gets
Alphabet from
us. I don't care either way, but I made a deal with your team and when
I make a
promise I keep it. YOUR team has priority here and I had ordered that
we trade
with your people first and formost, but I will change those plans if
your team
would rather take a more opportunistic approach to trade deals.

Lastly, explain to me how your team operates. Who's in charge and how
are these
decisions made? If you make a deal with me, how do I know that your
team will
follow through with it? If Panzer makes a deal, how do we know that
it's
official or not? In the future, how will we know who speaks for your
team and
who's word we can rely on if a simple incident like this can occur?

Post this message to your people so they can fully understand my
position.

--Togas

--- Jason Farber wrote:
> This is to inform you that I have recommended to our
> team that trading you The Wheel and Warrior Code for
> Alphabet is no longer acceptable in my opinion. We
> were trying to insure that our two teams would get
> every tech possible technology but your completely
> aggressive attacks in private and public against any
> team that does not willingly submit to be your lackey
> has made it clear that NO TEAM can coexist with yours.

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 19:01

Email from Togas on January 4:

Jason,

Thank you for clearing up the situation with your command structure.
Panzer is
"official" but you are his boss. That's similar to how my team is run:
adaMada
speaks for me, officially, but I could replace him or give him
instructions on
how to handle a situation.

I understand why you would be so frustrated by this turn of events. I
think we
both are for the same reason: Each of us has been pushing our team to
reluctantly move closer together, and each of us has gone to great
lengths to
achieve contact. I have a great many of the "GoW cannot be trusted"
crowd in my
ranks, and you probably have something of the same in yours for us.
When this
issue was posted it caused quite an uproar that, personally, affected
me because
of the trouble I had gone through to ensure that our deal with your
team would
take place.

If making a deal and sticking to is didn't matter much to me, I
wouldn't have
been angry about this at all.

I sent you that direct quote from Panzer's email. I don't think he was
doing any
harm, but I do think that it's obvious that there was some
miscommunication in
your ranks. He can send you a copy from his saved message file, or I
can send
you a copy, whatever you prefer.

The following timeline needs to be cleared up:

> We make tech trade deal for 3 techs UNLESS we aquire
> them before we meet.
>
> You acquire one of the 3 techs.
> We aquire one of the 3 techs.
>
> We ammend the deal to be 2 techs for 2 techs.
>
> Lux gifts us Bronzeworking to encourage us to befriend
> them and not side with ND.
>
> Panzer32 informs adaMada that our tech deal is off.
>
> Togas makes statements in the Apoly chat room that we
> violated on our aggrements and are not to be trusted.

Why don't you go look at the logs and you'll see that this is clearly
not true.
I don't have to comment any further, as the logs will clear this matter
up. I
went in and told Trip that your team was trying to change the deal,
then told him
we may have a better deal than the one we had previous arranged if our
deal with
you guys fell through.

> Togas informs me that I am dishonest and Roleplay no
> longer wants to deal with us.

This is untrue, but it's rather silly to argue about someone else's
perceptions.
All you need to know is that if we no longer wanted to deal with you, I
wouldn't
be writing this email.

> I inform Togas that I have no idea what he is talking
> about.
>
> I find out that we are being slandered as backstabbers
> and have broken our agreements.

Oh really? I'd like to see where anyone said anything like that. You
know full
well how angry I was, but you'll note when you review the logs that I
never made
any statements like that. I expressed my frustrations about your team
wanting to
change the deal, but never went any further than that.

> I inform my team that I don't feel it is wise to deal
> with a team that slanders us publicly and inform
> Togas, Dejon, and Arnelos of my new position.
>
> Togas emails me that Panzer32 told adaMada that the
> tech deal is off.

AND I sent you the text of his message to us, so that you could
understand what
made us so frustrated.

> I posted the situation in our forum and requested a
> statement from Panzer32 as to what he informed you and
> why he may/may not have changed the deal without team
> authorization.
>
> I emailed Togas, Dejon, and Arnelos this overview.

Frankly, I don't know why you decided to email Dejon & Arnelos this
"overview."
Perhaps you're trying to inspire a coup?

Blah, blah, blah. Enough of all of this bitterness. There's two
things I need
to ask:

1) Email is personal communications between you and me, not official
team stuff.
PMs are for official team business, and I'm not all that happy you
posted my
first email to your team. But I'm not going to sweat this, it's not a
big enough
issue to be annoyed about. In the future, let's keep our PERSONAL
correspondence
out of official game matters. I wrote you because you're the guy on
GoW that I
have the closest relationship to, and I wanted to express my
frustrations at what
I thought was a bigger issue than (obviously) it turned out to be.
Anyhow, let's
not quote personal emails in each other's private forums, alright?

2) Are we going to make a bigger deal of this than we should? I
received another
PM from Panzer that cleared up the whole thing -- you guys got Bronze
as a gift.
I wish I'd known that yesterday, but it wasn't communicated to me. If
it was, no
big deal. No one could turn down a tech gift. I'd completely
understand
that.
Can you understand why I'd say, knowing only what I knew yesterday,
that your
team wanted to change the deal on us? And if you look back at the
logs, you'll
see that I said nothing else derogatory about your team, when I was
certainly
angry enough to do so. So can we quite overreacting and move on?
What do you
think?

I think that's enough. I need to return to my forums and let everyone
know that
I've cleared this matter up. I've already posted Panzer's PM to my
team, and I
think that dispells the hype. Your guy does a pretty good job. You
don't need
to replace him. Maybe next time just add in a little extra information
so that
we don't get the wrong idea (you know, like my thinking you guys made a
trade
deal with ND instead of us...).

--Togas

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 19:05

Email from Togas on January 4:

Ghengis,

> It looks like we have a deal to trade Horseback for
> Ironworking with Lux, Horseback for Writing with you,
> and you should have Writing for Ironworking with Lux
> which is a partial if not complete embodiment of the
> tech pact I was looking for.

This is what I see happening as well. We three teams exchanging
amongst each
other. We plan to research Writing and them Mapmaking and trade it to
you and
Lux. So long as you and Lux research different techs our three-way
informal pact
will be in effect.

I'm reluctant to include ND and make it a four way trade pact, but I
may change
my mind. Let me know if they seem interested. Perhaps it would be
best for our
continent to rapidly rise above the weaker, distant other civs.

The trade deal has been accepted on our part. You'll notice that I
included a
small gift ... tribute to you and your team. A token gift that is
given to
express our gratefulness that this potentially ugly affair was worked
out between
our countries. Accept this gift with our thanks.

--Togas

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 19:07

Email from Togas on January 7:

Jason et al,

This is a fine idea and my team is on board, but it's going to need a
lot of
compromise and trust to pull off. We're going to need to work out some
additional terms about the minimum level of research allowed, trade
schemes, and
so forth.

We have already planned to do mapmaking next. So the Warmongers should
choose
another path. So long as everyone keeps up an even research rate, it
won't
matter that teams finish techs before others or that teams are
researching a
longer or shorter tech, as they will be giving the tech away and
starting on
another one as soon as it is discovered.

Is Lux Invicta in on this arrangement?

--Togas

--- Jason Farber wrote:
> ND just informed me that they are now interested in
> the tech sharing idea (first email I had gotten from
> them in a while I was beginning to get the idea they
> had cut off diplomatic relations with me

)
>
> Here is the chart with the techs everyone is
> researching now and what they would like to research
> next. I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by
> sending this as I don't see how this is going to
> destroy anyone's gameplan.
>
> ND has stated they wish to research Mathematics next.
> As my team researched the cheapest tech of the lot we
> would like to research Mapmaking to make up for it so
> that we are contributing our full share.
>
> Roleplay is researching the most expensive tech so I
> woudl not have a problem with them researching one of
> the lower cost ones.
>
> This is not an Official Diplomatic message, just a
> message to start some organization so that we can
> start to get on the same page so to speak.
>
> It is my philosophy that this tech coordination in no
> way affect diplomatic or political discussions. If
> one civ declares war on another civ so be it, but the
> tech thing continues. If Lux and ND go to war
> (example only, not trying to start a war) then Lux
> will still get the research ND did and vice versa it
> will simply be transferred through a non-aligned
> party. What are your teams views on this? I am going
> to try to get a consensus from my team.
>
> I also envision that immediately upon researching your
> assigned tech you give it to the other teams. This
> would eliminate the desire of one team to choose a
> specific tech for a Wonder and hold on to it to get an
> advantage over the other three.

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 19:08

Email from Togas on January 7:

> Rock, paper, scissors?

Naw, the tech is too important. We'll be the first ones who CAN get it
after we
finish Writing. Most efficient for us to start on it immediately,
instead of
waiting for you guys to finish X tech and then start on MM.

--Togas

>
> > We have already planned to do mapmaking next. So
> > the Warmongers should choose
> > another path.
> >
> > --Togas

**GhengisFarb™** · February 6, 2003, 19:13

Email from Togas on January 7:

Ghengis,

There's always Construction ...

Mysticism is fine. You may want to just pick up on the Writing tech
tree and
take one of those. Depends on if your Civ wants to get to Republic or
Monarchy
first.

--Togas

Announcement

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EXHIBITS of Communications from Roleplay.

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