Spies

[Hot_Enamel]

Just a quick post ....

I was lurking in the chat room..(I had the GOW sig on me)..and snapped this message from Togas to Trip.

I think it should of been a private one.

I have no idea what deal he was talking about...

[Hot_Enamel]

Oops .. no attachments allowed right !!

I will email it ...

Togas to Trip -> We may have a better deal for you - GOW is trying to change their deal


Regs

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I just got a nasty email from Togas:

What the hell?! Don't you guys have any patience?
You'd rather make a deal with ND than with us?

We just wasted 5+ turns of TWO of our scouts to try to urgently contact you guys, and we told Lux that we had aquired Warrior Code from you, so we didn't need it from them. Hell, we TURNED DOWN other nations to trade with you guys only to discover that your people don't have the same respect for agreements with us as you just got Bronze working and are now trying to tell adaMada that the deal has to be changed!

And all this time you've been sending us emails confirming that the "deal was still on", leading us on, so all the while we held to the deal and didn't buy either tech from anyone else because we agreed we would buy it from you.

This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you expect us to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will think twice before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.

--Togas

I have no idea what he is talking about as we all knew the Alphabet deal was horrible from ND considering we were getting it for free in 1 turn from RP. We ahven't traded anything with ND so he's apparently spreading lies.

[Hot_Enamel]

Or he has been lied to by some other team.

Perhaps ND or Lux have told them something ?

I think it best to try and figure out exactly what the problem is.
This could still work to our advantage...
1. Find out what the hell he is talking about
2. Clarify to him our position
3. Find out who is spreading lies

This will allow Togas to direct his displeasure at the right team.

I am not too sure it is Togas spreading lies, but rather he has been lied to (or incorectly assumed something). Find out who ...then kill them.

[Panzer32]

great...

I was the one who sent adaMada a PM saying the trade deal would have to be renegotiated since it was out of date, but I'm not sure about the other stuff, like "And all this time you've been sending us emails confirming that the "deal was still on"," - It was in the original agreement that if we met or traded with another team before we met roleplay, the deal would be renegotiated. Also, we can still give them warrior code... I don't see what the big problem is.

Nevertheless, I will make an official reply and send it to Togas and adaMada, and probably post it here.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Latest on the Roleplay situation:

Ghengis,

You need to talk to your people to see what they're telling us before
you go off
the handle. I wrote you after Panzer sent a message to adaMada stating
that you
just received one of the techs we were going to trade you, Bronze
Working, and
that the deal would have to be redone.

He informed us that "It seems like our warriors are very close together
now, but
our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new
meeting
deal together with you."

adaMada posted his message to my forum and asked me what we should do
now.

As you should know, we had planned to give your team Alphabet AND
Bronze Working
for Wheel and Warrior Code. However, since your team aquired Bronze
working, the
deal would, in his words, have to be redone.

We turned down a deal with Lux for the same techs we had agreed to
trade to you.
We have a contact with them and could have made such a deal at any time
this
week, but chose not to. You can understand why this would upset me.
You can
understand why I immediately wrote to you.

I recontacted Lux this evening to see if they would reconsider their
offer to us.
Trip informed me that they will. However, I made it perfectly clear
to him that
I would only take their offer IF things could not be worked out with
your team.

Therefore, you have a decision to make. Make ammends for this mistake
... I'm
sure it wasn't intentional. I'm sure it's one of those situations
where one hand
isn't watching the other. Get us back to the bargaining table and make
a promise
that your team can keep. Or, tell us to f*ck off and we'll go trade
Warrior Code
and Wheel for Alphabet to Lux Invicta.

Either way we get the techs we need. However, only you or Lux gets
Alphabet from
us. I don't care either way, but I made a deal with your team and when
I make a
promise I keep it. YOUR team has priority here and I had ordered that
we trade
with your people first and formost, but I will change those plans if
your team
would rather take a more opportunistic approach to trade deals.

Lastly, explain to me how your team operates. Who's in charge and how
are these
decisions made? If you make a deal with me, how do I know that your
team will
follow through with it? If Panzer makes a deal, how do we know that
it's
official or not? In the future, how will we know who speaks for your
team and
who's word we can rely on if a simple incident like this can occur?

Post this message to your people so they can fully understand my
position.

--Togas

My Response:

Off the handle? If you had stated that Panzer32 had made that comment and asked why it had been altered I would have looked into it and corrected the situation.

Instead your team immediately begins denouning us in the chat room and forums as liars and backstabbers doing irrepairable harm to our postion in the game.

That is completely unacceptable. I had been pushing to give your team "favored status" and encouraging my team that Roleplay was a strong ally candidate whom we should forge strong trade and tech deals with. In less than 24 hours you and your team have undermined all of that work and undermined my credibility within my own team. I have no idea if I can convince my team to ebrace that attitude again.

We had never decided to renogiate any deal and we got Bronzeworking from Lux for FREE as part of a friendship offer to encourage us to be more supportive of their postion and not ND's. We were to consider it as a bonus and were still going to trade you both techs in our agreement for Alphabet to honor our deal.

I would far prefer that questions about "backstabbings" be brought to my attention before being publicly thrown around as propaganda.

All I know is 24 hours ago we were in a strong tech postion and had lined up a tech share agreements with Roleplay and Lux to generate 3 techs for every 1 we researched and now we are almost back to square one and on the verge of being at the receiving end of a tech embargo.

[Panzer32]

I am sending a PM also, there GF... I am mostly done writing it when I saw yours.

[Panzer32]

Here is my reply:

___________

Greeting Togas, ruler of the Roleplay team. What I have to reply to is this email you sent to Ghengis Farb. I am sending this to adaMada as well.

What the hell?! Don't you guys have any patience?
You'd rather make a deal with ND than with us?

We just wasted 5+ turns of TWO of our scouts to try to urgently contact you guys, and we told Lux that we had aquired Warrior Code from you, so we didn't need it from them. Hell, we TURNED DOWN other nations to trade with you guys only to discover that your people don't have the same respect for agreements with us as you just got Bronze working and are now trying to tell adaMada that the deal has to be changed!

And all this time you've been sending us emails confirming that the "deal was still on", leading us on, so all the while we held to the deal and didn't buy either tech from anyone else because we agreed we would buy it from you.

This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you expect us to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will think twice before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.

This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you expect us to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will think twice before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.

--Togas

Well, for one, you seem determined that we cheated you by trading Lux Invicta. We traded The Wheel and Warrior Code for Bronzeworking and Pottery. Now, our team can still give you the Wheel and Warrior code, and you can still give us alphabet. Therefore, I propose we do exactly the same trade that we had agreed upon earlier - You give us Alphabet, we give you the Wheel and Warrior Code, and we have a 50 turn nonagression pact. Think of this advantageous deal as compensation for not trading with other teams while coming to meet us. I believe our warriors are extremely close to meeting, so we will hopefully have this cleared up very soon.

This brings up another point: In the original agreement, there was a 'clause' stating that we would renegotiate the deal if we met and/or traded with another team. I fail to see which part of this the Glory of War actually broke. Do not mistake the above deal I am giving you as an apology from the Glory of War team, it is simply a sort of compensation for misunderstanding our contract.

I also understand that you said in the public chat room: "Togas to Trip -> We may have a better deal for you - GOW is trying to change their deal" What did you say this for? Are you trying to spread lies about us? The Glory of War has done every deal with Lux Invicta it said it would do, the aforementioned tech trade is a public example. Please research your facts before you spread rumours about others.

Are you also afraid we have traded 'behind your backs' with New Demogyptica? The only time we have done this was a while back, before the latest tech trade was agreed upon.

Thank you; I hope that we can clear up some of the misunderstanding between our two teams

Panzer32, Foreign Consul for the Glory of War.
__________________

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Panzer32, could you post the email you sent to adaMada where Togas and Roleplay "claim" you broke our trade deal.

I would like to look at the exact wording to see how they came to their conclusions.

[Panzer32]

Here is the one (I think):

____________
Sent 3rd January 2003 03:14 pm EST

It seems like our warriors are very close together now, but our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new meeting deal together with you. It might be good to tell each other what we have, so we can see what can be traded - therefore

The GoW has these techs:
-masonry
-Pottery
-wheel
-warrior code
-bronze working
-ceremonial burial

what does roleplay have?
__________________

[Panzer32]

I sent an apology for this PM stating:
_____________

I looked over the situation, and think I understand some of what the problem is. Yesterday, I sent this PM to you:

It seems like our warriors are very close together now, but our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new meeting deal together with you. It might be good to tell each other what we have, so we can see what can be traded - therefore... and so on

Now I can understand your point of view and thus your reaction to this PM. I realise now that obselete was a strong word, and should not have used it, since the deal was not really obselete. The Glory of War only obtained one technology that was included in the deal. It sounded like we were cancelling the whole deal, including the nonagression deal. I was simply saying that we needed to adjust the deal again so it fit into both of our team's situations. Therefore I apologise for the severe wording of that PM.

[Panzer32]

Response from adaMada (from my long PM up there a bit)

_________________

RE: Can we clear this up?
Dear Panzer,
I'm sorry to say that I can't reply to this now, as I've got to go out, but considering the sensativity of this topic, I wanted to let you know that I will reply once I get back, and that I'm not ignoring you . I should be back in a few hours, and will have a reply for you and your team then.

-- adaMada

[Panzer32]

More stuff

PM from Togas replying to big PM (same as adaMada)
_____________________

Re: Lets get this thing cleared up
Panzer,

I think this matter can be put to rest. If your team will trade us Warrior Code and Wheel for Alphabet, then we have no problems at all. I regret that there has been such confusion over this issue.

I got enraged when my ambassador posted to our forum that you aquired Bronze Working from another source and said that the deal would have to be renegotiated, which meant that the deal was basically off. The reason I was angry about this is because I had taken active measures to send people to meet your team ASAP, foregoing their original scouting mission to travel directly to you. I had also had many exchanges with Ghengis Farb where he asked me on several occasions if the deal was on, and even sent us a .jpg showing where your warrior was so that we could both meet.

I was only angry because we had done so much thus far to make this deal and it didn't seem to me that it was as important to you guys as it was to us

Furthermore, Trip had offered us Wheel & Warrior Code in conjunction with several other trades, but we turned him down on Wednesday saying we already had a deal with you guys. Then I had to go back to Trip on Friday, after receiving your PM, to see if he would reoffer the deal to us.

I also understand that you said in the public chat room: "Togas to Trip -> We may have a better deal for you - GOW is trying to change their deal" What did you say this for? Are you trying to spread lies about us? The Glory of War has done every deal with Lux Invicta it said it would do, the aforementioned tech trade is a public example. Please research your facts before you spread rumours about others.

I said this, as this is what was communicated to me by your PM. You told adaMada that our previous deal was obsolite and that you'd like to make a new deal. Did you not say this?

Regardless, I understand that if you received Bronze Working as a gift, you could not refuse it. If I had been made aware of that situation earlier, I would not have been so frustrated by this turn of events. Furthermore, if I had been made aware by your first PM that you were willing to offer Wheel and Warrior Code for Alphabet, I certainly would not have protested. Such a deal is acceptable to me and my people.

I apologize that this misunderstanding inflamed both your people and mine, and I hope that in the future we can keep each other more informed so that misunderstandings like these will not happen again.

--Togas
________________________


And My reply to this:
________________________

RE: Re: Lets get this thing cleared up

I thank you for your reply, and am glad that this could be cleared up quickly. I'm sorry my wording was sort of off in my PM: "You told adaMada that our previous deal was obsolite and that you'd like to make a new deal. Did you not say this?" Yes I did say this, and I realise that obselete was sort of the wrong word. I was thinking that either most of the deal could be left intact, and you give us something other than bronze working, or we could go ahead and do the deal as we had originally planned, only without you giving us Bronze working. It now appears that this is what we will settle on. Also, I now understand why you said what you said to Trip in the chat room (BTW - you might want to be more careful about using the public chat room to communicate: one of the GoW members was there).

So there you go then; let us continue to be friends and it will go well with us in the future.

BTW: let both of our teams record the date we meet, so we can calculate which 50 turns the nonagression pact will last, so that we know which turn to start renegotiations.


Thank You;

Panzer32, Foreign Consul for the Glory of War PTW democracy game team.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Panzer32
BTW: let both of our teams record the date we meet, so we can calculate which 50 turns the nonagression pact will last, so that we know which turn to start renegotiations.

2850 BC

[Hot_Enamel]

Phew....Glad this was sorted out

I say at a minimum, do the deal with them.
Our 2 techs for their 1 tech.