The Glory of Government

[Donegeal]

THIS IS NOT A BINDING DOCUMENT
Citizens

A. Emperor

1. Plays the game.
2. Must appoint Consuls (described in Article I-B).
   a. Consul of Forgien Affairs. Required.
   b. Consul of Commerce. Required.
   c. Consul of Internal Affairs. Required.
   d. Others as needed.
   e. Orders of all Consuls within the boundaries of their officies must be followed by the Emperor.
3. Sells cities to Lords and Kings.
   a. Allowed to pick who gets what city and doesn't have to go with highest bid.
   b. Gets 10% commision of the purchase price for his own use.
   c. Must sell to Lords First.
4. Acts as King for all cities not assigned to someone else and the Capitol.
   - Exception in case of Article I-A8.
5. Controls all settlers.
6. Production and Queues Powers.
   a. May override Production and Queues during turnchats.
   - Must inform Kings of what he did.
   b. May ask for changes during PBEM style of play.
   - May call for a change vote if the King refuses.
7. Controlls all Units with an offensive/defensive value.
   a. Exception being Garrison Units.
   b. May remand Garrison Units.
8. Votes in House of Kings only with the Capitol and cities that are actually his.

B. Consuls

1. Either a King or Lord.
   - A person can hold only one position of Consul at a time.
   - The Emperor cannot hold a Consul position.
2. Appointment to any postition of Consul must be approved by the House of Lords.
3. Orders of all Consuls within the boundaries of their office must be followed by the Emperor.
4. Consul of Forgien Affairs.
   a. May make trade deals with forgien AI Civs.
   b. May propose trade deals with forgien Human Civs.
   - Proposed deals must get voted on.
5. Consul of Commerce.
   a. Has power over the slider.
   b. Controls the Treasury.
6. Consul of Internal Affairs.
   - Controls all workers and slaves.
7. Other Consuls may be apointed as the Emperor needs them.
8. No Consul may go to war.
9. Any additional Consul appointed by an Emperor is removed from the position and not replaced when the appointing Emperor is removed from power.

C. Kings

1. Lords who have purchased a city/cities.
   - All Subsequent cities purchased by a King must have a common border.
2. Names their city (and geographical areas in city radius) with 50% approval from House of Lords.
3. Controls WF of their city.
4. Controls build and queue of their city.
5. Controls Garrison units.
   - No more than three per city.
6. Votes in the House of Lords.
7. Votes in the House of Kings.
8. It is the Kings responsibility to keep track of which units are his when they are remanded by a Consul or Emperor.

D. Lords

1. Members of our team.
2. Votes in the House of Lords.
3. Votes in the House of Kings.

Government

A. House of Lords

1. Composed of all Kings and Lords.
2. One vote for each member.

B. House of Kings

1. Composed of all Kings and Lords.
2. One vote plus one for each population point in city/cities controled by King.
3. Kingless cities are not represented.

[Donegeal]

Our most pressing need right now is to get the kinks out of the GO and finishing up what needs to be voted on. Here is a cut and past of the arguments thus far:

Originally posted by Donegeal
This was how I originally wrote the matters of who votes on what:

C. Matters that get voted on.

1. Great Leaders.
2. City Names (High Council only).
3. Appointment of High Kings (High Council Only).
4. No-Confidence (High Council Only).
   a. Anybody (Emperor, High King, King and Lords) can make a call of No-Confidence of any elected or appointed Official.
   b. Must coinside with a person to take the place of deposed official.
   - Emperors cannot take the place of High Kings and vise versa.
   - Example: "I call a vote of No-Confidence on blah-blah and blah-blah to take his place!
5. War and Peace.
6. What we research.
7. Forgien trade deals with Human Civs.
8. Unforseen matters (High Council Only).
   - to include matter of Law.

This, obviously will no longer work. These are just some examples of what we will be voting on. Please give some input as I don't want to feel like I am ramming things down your throats. Give me your opinions.

Originally posted by Panzer32
In my opinion, the emperor/high king/whatever we call our leader should decide what we vote on and if we do vote. This does not create an impossible beaurocracy where every small matter gets voted on. One may argue that this gives the emperor too much power, but thats what the no-confidence vote is for. The emperor is held accountable with the threat of being replaced.

Originally posted by korn469
Panzer32

i respectfully disagree with you, just as i have with donegeal in the past, and here is my reasoning

*everyone on this team knows that we are playing a team game, and they accept that this means there will be more beaurocracy than either a multiplayer succession game or a normal multiplayer game

*everyone on this teams deserves to participate in the game, if you can't participate then why even play?

*without clearly defined rules some people will abuse their positions, and it could get to the point where a nocon vote is pointless because even if you do replace the person in power, whoever takes over next will do the same thing

we can have votes and team participation without making our system unworkable, what need need to do is to give the mundane matters to elected officials and make the big choices the things we vote on

here is what i would have the team vote on

*government changes (high council)
*what science to research (house of kings)
*trades with human civs (hc)
*war and peace (with both AI(hok) and human civs(hc))
*wonders (hok)
*what to do with great leaders (hc)
*our mobilization status (hok)
*authorization for the emperor to overrule somebody's build queue (hok)
*nocon votes (hc)
*election of the emperor (hc)
*approval of the emperor's ministers (hok)
*declare a temporary state of emergency that grants the emperor more powers and a temporary immunity from nocon votes (hc)

other than adding in a finance and treasury minister and making the military minister optional (the emperor is commander in chief but he can delegate if he wishes) it looks pretty good too me

Originally posted by UberKruX
wait, so all of the warlods have an equal say in the government? well, thats depressing

Originally posted by korn469
not exactly, votes in the house of kings depend on the population of your city, and since the emperor gets the capital plus his normal cities it gives him an advantage and encourages politics

really, besides trying to appeal to some kind of barbaric, feudal machismo...
...which is bs anyways, the most successful armies have always been professional armies supported by advanced societies...for example the individual native american warriors were individually much better than the individual US army soldier, but they didn't have the logistics or command structure to even mount a successful guerilla war...
...why shouldn't we try to involve all the people on the team in the game? i mean if only one person makes all of the decisions for the entire team is that really going to make being on this team more fun for everyone?

[Inverse Icarus]

oh, alright. i was kinda hoping that we'd have completely seperate feudal realms (seperate armies, etc) linked together by the emperor, but i guess i'll go with the flow.

[Inverse Icarus]

questions about garrison units:

what if one of our feudal warlords lies on a border with a large threat? surely he should ge more garrison units (or will the emperor just move some in for him?)

could all of my garrison units, be, say, Riders, and could they, say, be attacking trip's cities?

[Inverse Icarus]

in response to korn (sort of) thanks for the clarification. while i was banished to mingapulco, i sent in a list of suggestions, and for some reason i assumed they made it in crazy old me

i really dont like how a regions "power" in the government is based on it's population. i've been pondering what to do about this.

the obvious solution (to what you all might not see as a problem) would be to make an algorithm that includes population, production, and trade into account.

why should a region that can build 4 riders every 3 turns, with a combined population of 12 be subjected to rule by some cities on floodplains with wheat?

note the problem this causes. distant sectors will have corruption. i propose we use the real # (ie without corruption taken into account) as the indicator.

this would also allow the Lord to change his cities to change his power, to a degree, i suppose. but if only food = power, than Lords may be pressured to work the food-rich tiles over productive tiles, irrigate over mine, etc.

[Panzer32]

More thoughts, criticism, and compliments on the system:

Emperor: Sole power over the Slider.

Yes, this is fine. It is one of those things that the emperor would have to check to see everyone's opinion on it is, or a no-con vote would be in order.

Emperor: Gets 10% commision of the purchase price [of sold cities] for his own use.

1. We have to develop the monetery system used in this type of transaction.
2. Where does the other 90% go? Into the 'treasury' ie out of existance
3. He can sell it to himself, right? In that case, does he pay 90% or does he pay 100% with nobody getting 10% commission?

Emperor: Acts as King for all cities not assigned to someone else and the Capitol.
Exception in case of Article I-A8.

What one is article I-A8? I'm not very good at reading 'official' documents...

Emperor: May override Production and Queues during turnchats.

Wouldn't it be better to decide what to build before the turn, and discuss it with the kings? Or is this talking about urgent situations, such as a declaration of war, etc... My thoughts are that a king should submit a build queue to the emperor, and the emperor either approves it and uses it, or makes changes to it and let the king look it over and discuss conflicts. If they cannot agree, take it to a vote, like on the next line 7b.

High Kings: Orders of all High Kings must be followed by the Emperor.

Maybe change it to "Orders of all High Kings within the boundaries of their ministries must be followed by the Emperor", or something like that. Just so they can't demand something that is not relevant to their position.

High Kings: No High King may go to war.

What exactly does this pertain to? Does this mean no High King can order the Emperor to declare war?

Kings: - All Subsequent cities purchased by a King must have a common border.

I'm thinking this will end up in alot of cities being run by the emperor, unless there will be a very easy way to purchase someone other's city.

OK thats all for now.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by UberKruX
questions about garrison units:

what if one of our feudal warlords lies on a border with a large threat? surely he should ge more garrison units (or will the emperor just move some in for him?)

I would assume a smart Emperor would move more troops into the area. Alternatively, just because you have a Garrison limit of only 3 units, doesn't mean that you have to stop producing them.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by UberKruX
why should a region that can build 4 riders every 3 turns, with a combined population of 12 be subjected to rule by some cities on floodplains with wheat?

The only time that a build will subject to the vote of others is if the Emperor calls for a vote on the matter. I guess I just assumed that the vote would go to the High Council (where everone has one vote each) making the actual population differences irrelavant.

Originally posted by UberKruX
this would also allow the Lord to change his cities to change his power, to a degree, i suppose. but if only food = power, than Lords may be pressured to work the food-rich tiles over productive tiles, irrigate over mine, etc.

With the Ennet Compromise (everyone having a base vote in the House of Kings, reguardless of wether or not they have a city) and the fact that the House of Kings only votes on "minor" matters, it actually has been diminished in power to the point that I don't think anyone will be likely to push for "that one extra vote".

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by Panzer32
1. We have to develop the monetery system used in this type of transaction.
2. Where does the other 90% go? Into the 'treasury' ie out of existance
3. He can sell it to himself, right? In that case, does he pay 90% or does he pay 100% with nobody getting 10% commission?

Our monetary (the mini-game) system is being worked on and will be presented by GF. But you are correct that the other 90% of the purchase price goes up in smoke.

The matter of the Emperor selling a city to himself I believe has come up before and two main ideas arouse from it.
1: An Emperor would naturally sell a city to him self first as it would give him more power. How much he sold it to himself for would make no difference as he currently has the power to pick from those submitting bids by his own descrection (and not go with the highest bidder, makes you want to stay on the Emperor's good side). Whats holding him in check, is that he must sell to Lords (cityless members of our team) and can only have no more than two more cities than the person who has the least.
2: An Emperor simply cannot sell to himself (thus making him want to abdicate the throne after awhile).

Either one is fine with me.

What one is article I-A8? I'm not very good at reading 'official' documents...

Outlines are simple to read and follow. In the GO, there are only two articles, Article I (Citizens) and Article II (Government). When someone refers to a specific part of an article (in this case Article I-A8) you simple follow the description. First go to Article I (Citizens in this case) then go to the next term, or A (Emperor this time). Now go down the list till you get to the next term (8, as originally written). If there are no more terms listed in the reference, then you have arrived at the intended rule. In this case however, I made a boo-boo and put the wrong number. It should have been Article I-A9. I have corrected this mistake. Thanks.

Wouldn't it be better to decide what to build before the turn, and discuss it with the kings? Or is this talking about urgent situations, such as a declaration of war, etc... My thoughts are that a king should submit a build queue to the emperor, and the emperor either approves it and uses it, or makes changes to it and let the king look it over and discuss conflicts. If they cannot agree, take it to a vote, like on the next line 7b.

This was discussed at length between Korn and myself during the Team chat. The Kings will decide what to build in there cities and their Queues and submit these orders to the Emperor who has to follow them while the game is being played during the slow and tedious PBEM style of play. During the turnchat rapid successions of turns will pass and the Emperor has to have the authority to make changes as new situations arise (like someone declaring war on us). If the Emperor wants to change something that was submitted by a Kings for PBEM play, then he can discuss it with the King in question. If a compromise or some type of solution cannot be reached between the two and if the Emperor feels strongly enough about it, he can call for a vote to see what the rest of the people think.

What exactly does this pertain to? Does this mean no High King can order the Emperor to declare war?

Correct. Not even the Emperor may delcare war on his own. It requires the vote of the citizens.

I'm thinking this will end up in alot of cities being run by the emperor, unless there will be a very easy way to purchase someone other's city.

Its your city, sell it or trade it if you want. But remember that no one may have more that two more cities than the person who has the least.

[Panzer32]

The Kings will decide what to build in there cities and their Queues and submit these orders to the Emperor who has to follow them while the game is being played during the slow and tedious PBEM style of play. During the turnchat rapid successions of turns will pass and the Emperor has to have the authority to make changes as new situations arise (like someone declaring war on us). If the Emperor wants to change something that was submitted by a Kings for PBEM play, then he can discuss it with the King in question. If a compromise or some type of solution cannot be reached between the two and if the Emperor feels strongly enough about it, he can call for a vote to see what the rest of the people think.

Yes, thats a good, reasonable system. (Just hope that we have a good, reasonable emperor during the turnchats...)

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by korn469
other than adding in a finance and treasury minister and making the military minister optional (the emperor is commander in chief but he can delegate if he wishes) it looks pretty good too me

I have been giving this a great deal of thought lately. As Korn stated, and as I have said in the past, our Emperor must be able to lead us in war. The best way to do that would be to allow him to control the military. Maybe the position of High King of Military Affairs shouldn't exist unless the Emperor didn't want to do it.

If we give the Emperor back the Military power, maybe taking the Finance power away is a good idea. A High King of Commerce could control the slider and be the guy who approves rushes.

It might also be a good idea to make it so High Kings can't actually be Kings. Say a Region-King got appointed to and aproved to be the High King of Internal Affairs. We might start to see more and more of the workers head towards his region. But, then again, any elected or APPOINTED official is subject to the No-Con. If such a situation arose, it would be quite visable and could get call on it by anyone.

Just some more thoughts. Any comments?

[Panzer32]

If we give the Emperor back the Military power, maybe taking the Finance power away is a good idea. A High King of Commerce could control the slider and be the guy who approves rushes.

Yes, like a person to take care of the economy while the Emperor is out in battle?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Re: The Glory of Government

Observations and criticisms:

1) I don't want them to be called High Kings because they are not. They are Ministers. A King is feudal lord over lands and vassals not a minister. This is the equivilent of calling a Porshe a Hershey, they are completely different things.

I envision the High Kings being the leader of their racial groups, with all of the initial players being Kings.

Originally posted by donegeal
THIS IS NOT A BINDING DOCUMENT
Citizens

A. Emperor

1. Plays the game.
2. Must appoint High Consuls (described in Article I-B).
   a. Consul of Foriegn Affairs. Required.
   b. Consul of Military Affairs. Required.
   c. Consul of Internal Affairs. Required.
   d. Others as needed.
   e. Orders of Consul must be followed.
3. Sole power over the Slider.
4. Sells cities to Lords and Kings.
   a. Allowed to pick who gets what city and doesn't have to go with highest bid.
   b. Gets 10% commision of the purchase price for his own use.
   c. Must sell to Lords First.
5. Acts as King for all cities not assigned to someone else and the Capitol.
   - Exception in case of Article I-A9.
6. Controls all settlers.
7. Production and Queues Powers.
   a. May override Production and Queues during turnchats.
   - Must inform Kings of what he did.
   b. May ask for changes during PBEM style of play.
   - May call for a change vote if the King refuses.
8. Controls the Treasury.
9. Votes in House of Kings only with the Capitol and cities that are actually his.

B. Consuls

1. Either a King or Lord.
   - A person can hold only one position of Consul at a time.
   - The Emperor cannot hold a Consul position.
2. Appointment to any postition of Consul must be approved by the High Council.
3. Orders of all Consuls must be followed by the Emperor.
4. Consul of Foriegn Affairs.
   a. May make trade deals with forgien AI Civs.
   b. May propose trade deals with forgien Human Civs.
   - Proposed deals must get voted on.
5. Consul of Military Affairs.
   a. Controls all units that have a deffensive/offensive value.
   - Except for Garison units.
   b. May remand Garison units.
6. Consul of Internal Affairs.
   - Controls all workers and slaves.
7. Other Consuls may be apointed as the Emperor needs them.
8. No Consul may go to war.

B. Kings

1. Lords who have purchased a city/cities.
   - All Subsequent cities purchased by a King must have a common border.
2. Names their city (and geographical areas in city radius) with 50% approval from High Council.
3. Controls WF of their city.
4. Controls build and queue of their city.
5. Controls Garrison units.
   - No more than three per city.
6. Votes in the High Council.
7. Votes in the House of Kings.
8. It is the Kings responsibility to keep track of which units are his when they are remanded by a High King.

C. Lords

1. Members of our team.
2. Votes in the High Council.
3. Votes in the House of Kings.

Government

A. High Council

1. Composed of all Kings and Lords.
2. One vote for each member.

B. House of Kings

1. Composed of all Kings and Lords.
2. One vote plus one for each population point in city/cities controled by King.
3. Kingless cities are not represented.

Suggestions:
1) Replace the term "High King" with "Consul"
2) Replace term "High Council" with "House of Lords"
3) Modify IB,4a to require him to give a reason for not going with the highest bid (otherwise he will auction to the highest bribe) this would allow him to give a discount for exemplary service.
4) If a King builds a settler from his city of his own will he should get a 50% discount on bidding for the city it builds (does not apply to settlers commisioned by the Emperor)
5) IB, 5
Commands all Military units in time of National War.
This would allow Kings to wage private wars on other civs and we can simply explain that its one rogue king and not our civ doing it. I kinda like the idea of raiding border civilizations.
6) All cities MUST be opened for bid on the turn following their creation unless a Law of Exception is passed for that city by the Council of Lords. The Law of Exception allows the city to remain in the Emperors power for an additional 5 game turns.
7) Conquered cities are the jurisdiction of the Emperor and ARE not sold to lords. They will be assigned a Military Governor by the Emperor who will treat them as his own cities until the Emperor appoints a different Military Governor.

$Mini-Game Economy
All tiles produce three things: food, shields, and/or commerce.

We go by the production in the city screen, not the tiles.

Excess rice (not eaten by your citizens) sells for 75 rabbits (term "rabbits" could change to some other livestock pending development of currency).

Shields sell for 50 rabbits, and goods sell for 100 rabbits.

The rabbits are then used to bid on more land, bribes, and favors.

We can use the shields and city pop for building things if we want.

Before the game begins we choose our Tribes and Clans.

Each member is a Clan or "house", but a Tribe may consist of more than one Clan.

All rabbits produced from Imperial holdings will be divided up amongst the nobles by the following share system.

Each Tribe recieves 5 shares and 2 shares for each clan in the Tribe. The Tribe's rabbits are used at the discretion of the Tribe's High King.

The Emperor recieves 5 shares to be used for the Imperial lands and 3 shares to be held in escrow for his own personal use once he leaves office.

The total number of shares is added up and the session income of the Imperial Holdings is divided by the total number of outstanding shares and assigned accordingly.

[Donegeal]

I have changed the High Kings around so that the Emperor controls the Military and set up a High King of Commerce.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Right now, with the latest developments, I'm leaning towards putting $Minigame stuff on hold and simply working as a council of Kings.

With 9 members we look to be the smallest group and should simply concentrate on kinking arse.

Imagine our reputations if we toast everybody. Let's have a vote on anyone else who wishes to join, say have a poll in our forum where each current member votes for each new prospect.