1350 AD Orders - X-Day minus 2

[Hot_Enamel]

Ouch !


No deal.
GoW will not invade ND, until GS is well and truely eleminated from the game.

How ND & GoW choose to end the game, is up to us.
Cheese or not. (and it is cheesy )

ND & GoW may choose to do it by UN vote.
Or we may choose to battle it out...with an agreed set of rules. (ie 2 turns to prepare, and no nukes allowed)
Or we may choose to make it a space race.

All three are valid end-game options.

[Donegeal]

Nope.

GoW/ND has decided this game. All others don't count, and even their opinion in this game makes little difference. HE is right. The joint win deal is cheesy, but who is anyone to argue about it? If anyone protests, we eliminate them. Once they are eliminated, they no longer have a say. Once all dissenters are removed, we (GoW/ND) can decide how or if we pick amongst ourselves.

[Master Zen]

A UN vote would be simple and practical. And we'd win since we have Vox's vote assured.

A military face off would not be optimal since whoever struck first would win, even without nukes, or at least leave the other too crippled to mount a decent counterattack.

A space race would be great. It would be a battle between ND's superior national production power vs our superior scientific capacity. Would be interesting.

[Donegeal]

Hmmm... The Religious and Expansionist Arabs have the higher Production value.

The Industrious and Militant Chinese have the greater Scientific rating.

Interesting...

[Master Zen]

They're just sucky builders

I mean, they only overtook us industrially way AFTER the Lego War despite the fact they had the largest potential. While we were building the tanks and marines which were to fight at Stanwix they were only finishing up their factories and power plants. That's why they couldn't afford to build all the universities and stock exchanges and that's why our economy is bigger than theirs.

I am confident we could win a space race against them. We would get the techs first and their industrial advantage means squat when only a handful of cities will be building the parts. And our super-cities are just as (if not more) productive than theirs.

[Master Zen]

This was my reply:

Well I posted this in our forum and the result was rather unanimous: we wish to continue the course we have undertaken as of now.

The first and most immediate reason is a military one, which I am not at liberty to discuss (I will share it in due time, you might even deduce it the coming turn). The second is because we would be blatantly violating an alliance which has been clearly spelled out. Granted, you probably know that GoW is synonimous with loopholes and shady clauses. I will not deny that. But in our eyes, we have not yet violated a treaty so blatantly. Our treaty with Roleplay with the Bobian War was purely a mutual protection pact in case ND attacked them. It said nothing if we were the ones to attack first (sneaky, I know). Likewise with Lego we had no treaties whatsoever which means we were free to go to war at will, just like you did. In this current war we pledged neutrality, but never said up until when. And you can ask Cort Haus that I clearly mentioned that if GoW felt itself directly threatened then we would intervene, be it with you or against you. What was this inminent threat? Nukes of course. The moment GS obtained uranium, we knew that we'd be utter fools to wait until you got nukes since you had no treaties of non-aggression with us. And knowing how cunningly your team has acted in the past, it would not have surprised us if you launched at us instead of vice versa. Don't take this wrong though, if anything it's a reflection of the huge respect we have for you guys as Civ players, knowing quite well that given your limited size and strength, would use every opportunity at your disposal to win. I don't blame you at all, since I would have done the same (or should I say, did).

Things would have been different had GS never had access to uranium. Perhaps we'd have waited until you and ND bloodied yourselves to bits and we then would have swooped down on your respective rotten carcases and won. But right now we have two choices: either accept your proposal, offer even a diminute probability of you winning, accepting the fact that we'd spare you in exchange for absolutely nothing in return (not even an offer of joint victory), and blatantly violate a treaty which clearly lays out the path to our (co) victory. Regarding you accepting a joint victory, I'm not sure a defeated or even destroyed GS would be in a position to reject such a thing, in any case though, I assure you, we WILL win in-game-wise, most likely via the next round of UN voting. If GS chooses to accept the winner on the basis of the in-game victory, that is entirely up to you guys, but via whatever method we win, we will never recognize our own victory as being alone. I have also heard - though entirely unconfirmed - that it is possible to win an "allied victory" if you eliminate all your opponents except those you are allied in-game with. I would not know if it is possible since I have not heard this from a reputable source, if it were true, it would be another possibility for us.

There is still a lot to discuss about what has been going on, surely the AAR of this war will be an interesting read. Despite being enemies at the moment I nevertheless appreciate your last-minute approach. It was difficult for us (particularly me as turnplayer and evil-plan-orchestrator) to do what we did last turn since GS was a team that - unlike during the first half of the game - became a pleasure for us to deal with. I have nothing but respect for DeepO, Cort Haus and yourself for not only being fantastic Civ players but also allies in war, partners in peace, and now rivals in war. I think your diplomacy really improved alot and I really can't find much fault in it other than your over-cautiousness after the Lego War, though I find it initially justified due to the fact that you were then missing uranium. With that said I just want to restate that this was not a personal issue, nor did it involve any past grudges, nor was it a plot for being the strat forum guys, etc. ND and GoW each have had the power to destroy the other on more than one occasion in the past. Yet both of us refrained from doing so out of trust and mutual interest. The big difference with GS is that we knew that you could destroy us if you had the chance, a reasoning brought out because of our high regard for you people as Civ players. In the event, we had the chance first and we took it and I guess this pretty much sums up the story.

So again, sorry but we cannot accept your deal though we appreciate the effort and I am still open for any "off the record" discussions you or your team might want to have.

Cheers,
-MZ

P.S. Btw, there IS a loophole in our deal with ND though I doubt GS could manage to trigger it (but you are welcome to try as it's the only way we'd seriously consider breaking the treaty and thus win alone). Hint: it's in my second post in the Whore of Babylon thread.

Btw... the loophole is our pledge to defend Vox at all costs. If ND were to attack Vox, we'd have no choice but to declare war on ND. I know it's sneaky but if Vox attacked ND, then we'd have to do the opposite: attack Vox despite our pledge to defend them. So it works both ways, just depends on which treaty is above the other, IMO, it's the one which doesn't begin the conflict.

I don't want to actively get ND to attack Vox since that would be the utmost in betrayal, but if ND starts getting trigger-happy after we crush GS and plots to take out our little red friends, I won't say a thing, and if they start a war, we RoP rape their ass with no qualms

-MZ

[Hot_Enamel]

[Master Zen]

The reply:

>Well I posted this in our forum and the result was
>rather unanimous: we wish to continue the course we
>have undertaken as of now.

Understood.

I think someone's pissed...

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Aeson
I stated it was the crash already.

Very pissed

[Master Zen]

ND's plan for this turn:

Hi MZ,
we got this from GS this turn:

Hello ND,

I've sent Miniaturization accepted with a peace
treaty. This (Miniaturization, not peace) is to pay
the 180g balance that GS has been trying to transfer
to ND, as well as compensate for the time you've been
waiting for the payment and any difficulties incured
by accepting the peace treaty. The peace treaty is
just an in-game technicality to pass you the tech in
the most expedient manner. We do not see it as any
sort of agreement between our two teams.

You will lose WW (positive and negative) for the turn.
After re-declaring war it should return though.

If this isn't acceptable to you, GS will still view
the deal as paid off. We sent 180g to GoW 2 turns ago
as per the agreement with them in the public forum.
They sent 180g back instead of passing it on to you
though. We felt obligated to try one more time to pay
it off, but given the nature of your relationship with
GoW and their technically already having recieved the
payment, we will not go further out of our way to do
so.

Regards,

Aeson

So we have now mini and war with GS.

The statistic of lost untis:
Mil GS:
2 Settler (-1)
14 Worker
7 Marine (-1)
42 Tank (-10)
58 MechInf (-24) !
0 Ari (-14)
3 Cruise Missle
15 Transporter
5 Carrier
9 Submarine (-2)
13 Destroyer (-1)
10 Battleship
2 Nuc Sub
15 Bomber
6 Jet Fighter (-1)

Mil Lego (Despotism):
Mil near "Lego Memorial"
1 Settler
0 Rifleman (-1)
5 Inf
2 Tank
1 Transporter

You'll get another statistic after we play (and nuke) GS

And a pic of the new situation, we will nuke orangesoda (alu), other goals
will be discuss, we have really hard problems with the ww so we can't build
six nukes, looks like four nukes.

zeri

I don't get it. GS is at war with both of us, what do they win by being "honorable" and giving the last part of a trade deal that ND had with them? For all that's concerened the moment the **** hit the fan all deals between everyone went to hell.

I think that's the problem with GS diplomacy. They acted or attempted to act so honorably that they ended up feeling like robots rather than a human team naturally inclined to backstab and betray. I sure as well would not have sent crap had I been in GS's shoes right now.

Btw, in case you didn't read the text, ND expects to have and use about 4 nukes this turn.

-MZ

[Hot_Enamel]

Right on the money about GS.

They stated that they were playing with a code of honour from the start of the game. It has done them no good..and has ended up working against them.

They also treat this game as a single player game.
- must win using a game mechanic
- Accepting a city in the middle of a war is not an act of aggression as per game mechanics.

[Donegeal]

So we got Mini for what, nothing? +180 gold?

What is up with these people?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
They stated that they were playing with a code of honour from the start of the game.

They can CLAIM that all they want. They lied to our face with that NAP, breaking the spirit of it, if not the actual treaty.

Then they broke any honor they had left using the teleport exploit to transport RP troops back to the capitol. No, sir, they are not an honorable team by any stretch of the imagination.

(in all fairness, I did make them break their own team procedures by forcing them to agree to the NAP in chat in the first place...)

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Donegeal
So we got Mini for what, nothing? +180 gold?

What is up with these people?

Pretty much

[Master Zen]

we have the save... but won't have time to play until tomorrow night.