Announcement

**UnOrthOdOx** · November 10, 2003, 18:41

I like your agenda; may I further flesh it out with this addition of potential deal points (feel free to suggest edits / improvements):

* Roleplay
* Lego / Vox
* Territory
* Gold
* Techs
* Resources
* Military coordination
* Completion of contract

Can your people set up a chatroom and supply me with a password? I'd like to target starting around 9 pm EST.

Can someone be there at 9PM?

I could be around, but will need to idle at least some of the time as my kids will still be up and into trouble.

**UnOrthOdOx** · November 10, 2003, 18:43

Curious.

Not a single mention of ND in the above...

I thought they wanted us to attack ND? Yet, they make no mention of them at all...

**Master Zen** · November 10, 2003, 19:13

I'm there.

Confirmed 9pm EST or is there another hour?

**Hot_Enamel** · November 10, 2003, 19:14

I think perhaps the best thing that could happen to us right now, is if GS throw every unit they have got against us. We will lose many Riders, but GS should lose a lot more. Hopefully, we may get a leader from the Alamo, and hopefully, we & ND will have enough units left to destroy whatever is remaining of GS.

I think we need to present ourselves as willing to die in battle rather than accept any presence of GS on Bob….blah blah blah.

Use statements like….

We are willing to gamble on the RNG that the Alamo will hold.
You may take Yellowknife, but you will never reach our core!
Even though our reinforcements could not reach the Alamo, they are willing to die to take it back. (Referring to the 6 riders that Aggie will take out of the Alamo)

This indicates to them, that there is a chance that they could win if they attack.

Do not say…We are not afraid or The Alamo and Yellowknife cannot fall. Goad them into attacking.

I also really, really, really want to bring up Togas’s suggestion that GS will help RP in a perpetual war against GoW. It was a PM from Togas, so Aggie is right in saying we cannot post it or directly refer to it.

Say…

We have evidence that RP is willing to leave Bob and relocate to Estonia, but if we force them to do it, RP will remain in perpetual war with us and cripple our economy with war weariness.
We have been told that that GS has agreed to this plan, and will gift a city and protect it. It is a disgrace that RP & GS would stoop to such a practice.
This has upset and angered many GoW members that RP & GS will once again abuse the mechanics of the game.
The GoW plans to release this information on the public forum and request a vote that RP & GS be forced to not use this tactic.
There will be no peace while RP & GS hold such a threat over us. Once again, we are willing to sacrifice the GoW economy to ensure our allies and Lego have a chance to win the game.

The hope is, that Togas has not discussed the perpetual war this with GS. Maybe this will drive a wedge between them.

Also, I think that under no circumstances do we allow them a presence on Bob. If they insist, then we will need the same amount of cities on Northern Estonia. This should be our unwavering position.

Other stuff…

Why is ND a bigger threat to them than Lego ? Why so much talk about taking ND first ?
They do not get our techs. End of story.
RP may live, but only on Northern Estonia. But please remember that if RP lives, they will always be our enemy. Just like how Vox feels about GS, they will spy and conspire against us for the rest of the game. I am not sure if this is worth it.

**Hot_Enamel** · November 10, 2003, 19:19

BTW .. I am at work, so not chatting for me

Unortho / MZ ... do not get dragged into a 50 page agreement on peace.

Refuse to tie any peace agreement with ..tech/resources etc etc.

Peace, RP & GS off bob is the only thing that needs to be discussed as an agreement.

Tech, resources, luxeries, military alliances etc etc should fall outside any peace offer and can only be discussed in general terms. Nothing will be agreed upon until Peace (sepatately) is agreed upon, accepted in-game, and GS leaves BOB.

**UnOrthOdOx** · November 10, 2003, 20:07

A bit ahead of you, HE.

I have already told him that anything will need be taken back to the team, this is to discuss the proposal not to agree to it.

Yes, 9PM EST is confirmed from Theseus and I believe OPD and a few others as well. I'll be on but busy with kids for at least an hour at that point.

Room will be #GoW_CoFA password will be name

The WORD name.

**UnOrthOdOx** · November 11, 2003, 01:12

Dear lord do they EVER make a point...

Anyway MZ will be posting the log, it's late, work in 4 hours...

**Master Zen** · November 11, 2003, 01:23

chat log:

Session Start: Mon Nov 10 20:07:09 2003
Session Ident: #GoW_CoFA
[20:07] * Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
[20:07] [MRex] hi
[20:07] [MasterZen] hey
[20:07] * Panzer32 sets mode: +ooo Aggiemowa MasterZen MRex
[20:07] * Panzer32 sets mode: +o UnOrthOdOx
[20:07] [Aggiemowa] hit there
[20:07] [UnOrthOdOx] They have thought they were playing AI.
[20:08] [UnOrthOdOx] Vox gave them little reason not to, though either.
[20:08] [MRex] lol
[20:08] [UnOrthOdOx] I think they are just now waking up to the fact that they are NOT the gods of Civ
[20:08] [Aggiemowa] nope
[20:08] [MRex] i'm scared some of the tactics used in this game will come up in the isdg

[20:08] [Aggiemowa] you think when they lost the cats it would have told them that
[20:08] [Aggiemowa]

[20:09] [Aggiemowa] i hope not mrex
[20:09] [MasterZen] and the how many knights?

[20:09] [Aggiemowa] we'll they'll lose more if they try to take alami=o
[20:09] [MRex] was that easier than backspace?

[20:10] [MRex] so lemme get this straight, they come in, grovel at our feet, we play along, they do what we say, we keep on attacking?
[20:10] [Panzer32] hmm so where are they
[20:11] [UnOrthOdOx] Theseus is comming, drop the bashing.
[20:11] * Aggiemowa is now known as aggieeating
[20:11] * Theseus has joined #GoW_CoFA
[20:11] [Theseus] Hi guys
[20:11] [MasterZen] howdy
[20:11] [Theseus] What do the @ signs mean? And damn, I am waaay outnumbered!
[20:12] [MasterZen] @ means you are opped, which really doesn't make much difference
[20:12] [Theseus] Are you all ok if I come back in about 5 min?
[20:12] [MasterZen] sure
[20:12] [Theseus] Thanks.
[20:12] * UnOrthOdOx sets mode: +o Theseus
[20:12] [UnOrthOdOx] Are any other stormians showing up?
[20:16] [UnOrthOdOx] Theseus, are we ready, or are we still awaiting more members of GS?
[20:17] [MasterZen] he said he was coming back in 5 min
[20:22] [Theseus] Cort Haus should be joining us. Please bear with me, I am an IRC newbiew.
[20:22] [MasterZen] ok
[20:22] [Theseus] Please be aware, Lego has noticed that I am in this chat room. I was not aware that this was technically possible.
[20:23] * Panzer32 sets mode: +s
[20:23] [Theseus] But, uh, we have been talking about you.

[20:23] * Retrieving #GoW_CoFA info...
[20:23] [aggieeating] i didn't know that either
[20:23] [Theseus] What did Panzer just do?
[20:23] [MasterZen] made the room secret
[20:23] * aggieeating is now known as Aggie
[20:23] [Panzer32] now they shouldn't be able to see us
[20:23] [MRex] good

[20:24] * UnOrthOdOx is now known as [GoW]UnO
[20:25] [Theseus] Nimitz used whois.
[20:25] [Theseus] Whatever that means.
[20:26] [Theseus] Can we wait a minute for Cort Haus?
[20:26] [Panzer32] sure
[20:26] [[GoW]UnO] Sure
[20:26] [[GoW]UnO] I'll go talk storyline with MrWIA
[20:27] [Panzer32] Nimitz is Nimitz@user-v8o1d66.dialup.mindspring.com * asjkfa
[20:27] [Panzer32] Nimitz on @#legoland
[20:27] [Panzer32] Nimitz using apolyton.net Apolyton IRC Server
[20:27] [Panzer32] Nimitz has identified for this nick
[20:27] [Panzer32] Nimitz has been idle 27secs, signed on Mon Nov 10 19:01:36
[20:27] [Panzer32] nimitz End of /WHOIS list.
[20:27] [MasterZen] whois. The art of knowing that the man behind "Theseus" is Mr. Richard Podos who uses verizon.net to connect to the internet
[20:27] [Panzer32]

[20:27] [MasterZen] Theseus, are you using mIRC?
[20:28] [Theseus] Yes.
[20:28] [MasterZen] right-click on any of us in the list and choose whois
[20:29] [MasterZen] then look in the first window (the one where the connection settings are shown) and info on that person will appear
[20:29] [MasterZen] that includes the rooms that person is in
[20:29] [Theseus] Funny sidenote: We are contemplating evacuating RP from Bob. Arrian, following tradition, dubbed this the "RPodus". I complained, being the warmonger previously known as rpodos.
[20:30] [MasterZen] hahaha
[20:31] [Aggie] thats good
[20:32] [MRex] haha, i'm identified only by MRex. i fooled you all.

[20:33] [MasterZen] :P
[20:33] [MasterZen] well, it's not like my name is any secret, people still ask if I'm related to Christina
[20:33] [Aggie] are you

[20:33] [MRex] lol
[20:33] [Aggie] though I woul;dn't admit it if i was
[20:34] [Theseus] Well, now that you all know who I am, feel free to find me in NYC.
[20:34] [MasterZen] if I was no-one would probably believe it anyway
[20:35] [MasterZen] hey, Theseus, I might be in NYC after dec. 20
[20:35] [Theseus] OK, it's just me for the moment... Cort Haus may join.
[20:35] [MRex] i live in Rockland County, just north of NYC

[20:35] * MasterZen smells a RL GoW-GS meeting in the works...
[20:36] [Theseus] How do I do that MZ?
[20:36] [Aggie] =thats would be truly scary
[20:36] * Guest has joined #GoW_CoFA
[20:36] [MasterZen] "/me"
[20:36] [MasterZen] "/me jumps up and down"
[20:36] [MRex] lol
[20:36] [Guest] sorry, I'll be back with my name ...
[20:36] * MasterZen jumps up and down
[20:36] * Guest has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[20:36] [MRex] i never met someone in RL i know from the internet, no plan to either

[20:36] * MasterZen assumes that was Cort Haus
[20:37] [Theseus] Cool. FYI for all, I am going to try to make Monday night my personal chat night.
[20:37] [MasterZen] nice, you should hang out at the ISDG channel too
[20:37] [Theseus] Yeah, that was prolly CH.
[20:37] [MRex] and miss football?

[20:37] [MRex] j/k
[20:37] [Aggie] practice/me
[20:37] * Theseus slaps THE WHOLE GS TEAM with a wet trout.
[20:37] [Theseus] OK, it works.
[20:38] * Aggie test of writing
[20:38] [Theseus] I'm dealing with low participation... at a crucial time.
[20:38] [Theseus] Speaking of which...
[20:38] * Aggie slaps Aggie around a bit with a large trout
[20:38] [Aggie] i know the feeling
[20:38] [Theseus] BRB, and then let's get going.
[20:38] [MasterZen] ok
[20:38] [MRex] sure

[20:40] [Theseus] I am a newb at both IRC and diplo. I am turning on the log now, and I would like to start with a discussion of confidentiality.
[20:41] [[GoW]UnO] Go ahead.
[20:41] * Cort has joined #GoW_CoFA
[20:41] [Aggie] welcome
[20:41] [Theseus] First, are we agreed that this chat is to be held confidential between GS and GoW?
[20:41] [Cort] hi
[20:41] [Theseus] Hi CH!
[20:41] [MasterZen] hey CH!
[20:42] * MasterZen sets mode: +o Cort
[20:42] [MasterZen] Theseus, agreed
[20:42] [Aggie] reasonable
[20:43] [Theseus] Next: It ain;t that confidential. Nimitz and Sharpe know we are chatting. Future reference... chat channels should not include team names.
[20:43] [MasterZen] better yet, just make them secret
[20:43] [Theseus] Yeah, I ma new to this, that should always be done ASAP.
[20:43] [[GoW]UnO] I thought Panzer did when it was made, I should have checked.
[20:44] [Theseus] Un0, would you like to be MAster of Ceremonies?
[20:44] [[GoW]UnO] Err what?
[20:44] [Theseus] Your agenda.
[20:44] [[GoW]UnO] I'll be on and off till my kids go to bed.
[20:44] [Theseus] OK, I'll just jump into it.
[20:44] [MasterZen] I'll take over from UnO if necessary
[20:44] [Theseus] Your call.
[20:45] [MasterZen] go ahead, you can start
[20:45] [[GoW]UnO] Theseus, would you like to go first, or shall I?
[20:46] [Theseus] I will... uh, we can see YK.

[20:46] [Aggie] yes
[20:46] [Theseus] Nice volley.
[20:46] [Aggie] we noticed

[20:47] [Theseus] I hope it's OK with you guys... I like to keep things friendly and remember it's a game.
[20:47] [Panzer32] valley you mean?
[20:47] [Panzer32] Welcome to the beautiful Province of Isolationia, Theseus
[20:47] [Aggie] i believe so, actually the war has been fun, no matter how it turns out
[20:48] [Theseus] Good.
[20:48] [Panzer32] You will find me at the capital building in YK
[20:48] [Theseus] Before we go on: What do you mean Panzer?
[20:48] [Panzer32] nothing important
[20:48] [Theseus] roleplayig, or provincial control?
[20:48] [Panzer32] Isolationia is a province of GoW
[20:49] [Panzer32] I control it
[20:49] [Theseus] Not prying, just interested.
[20:49] [Panzer32] but yes I'm RPing
[20:49] [Panzer32] sure
[20:49] * MasterZen laughes from his balcony from his Castle of Darkness in Zenophobia
[20:49] [Cort] Nice name

[20:49] [[GoW]UnO] Land of the dragons.
[20:50] [MasterZen] thanks, I usually name my capital in PBEMs like that
[20:50] [Cort] I thought dragoons were only in Civ2
[20:50] [Theseus] Theseusville is my standard... not very imaginative.
[20:50] [Aggie] hehe
[20:50] [Theseus] @CH: lol
[20:50] [[GoW]UnO] Never mind, my story...
[20:50] [Panzer32] My title is "Consul of Internal Affairs, King of Trafalgar, and Lord of all Isolationia"
[20:51] [Cort] Nice title
[20:51] [Theseus] Well, Isolationia is part of the current stroy.
[20:51] [[GoW]UnO] Ok. Guys, can we aproach something resembling a point?
[20:51] [Panzer32] ok
[20:51] [Theseus] We do not want to attack you.
[20:51] [Theseus] How's that?
[20:51] [[GoW]UnO] Go on Theseus, I'm just trying to keep it on topic.
[20:52] [[GoW]UnO] One needs to slap GoW around now and then to keep them focused.
[20:52] [Theseus] We think southern Bob is a friggin' QUAGMIRE, and we ar bored with it.
[20:53] [Theseus] We think it only benefits Lego.
[20:53] [MasterZen] wait till you see the north

[20:53] [Cort] @MZ:lol
[20:54] [Theseus] Yup, we know.
[20:54] [Theseus] Sorry... pause... Amy wants me for a minute.
[20:56] [Cort] Ahem, we were wondering that it's probably not in our mutual interest to spend so many shields on each other like this
[20:57] [Panzer32] probably not
[20:58] [Aggie] this war is expensive for little real gain
[20:58] [[GoW]UnO] For all involved, that can be agreed.
[20:59] [Cort] wouldn't you fancy the land to your immediate south rather than all the way down there in Spain?
[21:00] [[GoW]UnO] My mom is IMing me, I'll be away for a minute.
[21:01] [MasterZen] I believe this chat was planned to get into such arrangements regarding land to our "immediate south"
[21:01] [Cort] and perhaps swift fullfilment of an otherwise perhaps tedious contract?
[21:04] [Theseus] Back.
[21:04] [Panzer32] what is your proposal. I hate this skirting the issue
[21:04] [Theseus] Ahem... to jump to the chase:
[21:04] [Theseus] We would like to contract with GoW.
[21:04] [Cort] RP of Bob and a better chunk of the continent than you can get with ND
[21:05] [Cort] off, not of
[21:05] [MasterZen] "off" bob I presume
[21:05] [MasterZen] xpost
[21:05] [MasterZen] sounds "arrangeable"
[21:06] [Cort] what chunk did you have in mind?
[21:06] [Theseus] Sorry... mIRC is weird, can;t control the window.
[21:06] [Theseus] Got it.
[21:07] [Theseus] Yes, we would like to contract with you... for the eradication of ND.
[21:07] [Theseus] We acknowledge that this will first require the removal of RP from Bob in order for you to complete your current contract.
[21:08] [MasterZen] that would definitely be in order, sounds like a "RPodus (tm)" to me

[21:08] [Cort] omg not again
[21:09] [Theseus] Grrrr
[21:09] [MasterZen] ok, just kidding
[21:09] [Theseus] Alright, we can call it an Rpodus, but it'll cost ya!

[21:09] [[GoW]UnO] Im back.
[21:10] [Cort] they'll like it in old voxia
[21:10] [Theseus] Did Un0 post in your forum the outline of deal issues that I ahd PMed him?
[21:10] [[GoW]UnO] Yes.
[21:11] [[GoW]UnO] and its an O not a 0 damn it.
[21:11] [Theseus] So sorry, I've been writing it the wrong way for months!
[21:11] [[GoW]UnO] I'm well aware...
[21:11] [Cort] but many at GS would like to reinstall them in part of old spain one day... is that inconcievable for GoW?
[21:11] [Theseus] (I thought you were doing the leet thing)
[21:12] [Theseus] Sorry
[21:12] [Theseus] Try being called rpodus
[21:12] [Cort] gentlemen, this is the war room!
[21:12] [MasterZen] leet is f0r l0053r5...err.... nevermind
[21:12] [Theseus] You can't fight here!!
[21:12] * Panzer32 moves an infantry figurine over 1 inch
[21:12] [Theseus] ok
[21:13] [Theseus] RP off Bob... acceptable?
[21:13] [[GoW]UnO] Acceptable...required is a better statement.
[21:13] [Theseus] Done.
[21:13] [Theseus] ND off Bob... off the PLANET... accetable?
[21:14] [Theseus] acceptable
[21:14] [Theseus] (pregnant pause)
[21:14] [[GoW]UnO] Possible.
[21:15] [[GoW]UnO] I said earlier, This is not to agree to anything, but rather to hammer out the deal to be brought back to discussion in the forum.
[21:15] [Theseus] Fair enough.
[21:15] [[GoW]UnO] Yes, we agree to discuss it, but not to DO it at this point.
[21:15] [Theseus] Yes, for us as well.
[21:16] [Cort] meanwhile we don't really want to be clonking each others pieces, I'd venture
[21:17] [Theseus] We see things as follows: The current situation in suthern Bob is a waste of time. Spain has been eviscerated, and now GoW, ND, and GS are just wasting time and shields.
[21:17] [Theseus] Frankly, Lego is the winner in this conflict.
[21:18] [[GoW]UnO] True.
[21:18] [Panzer32] 6*And blockhead secret Lego agent over here is loving it...
[21:19] [Theseus] We also look at the map of Bob, and even though you are our 'enemy', we have to notice that it is awfully yellow.
[21:19] [Panzer32] the black is hard to see thats why we chose it

[21:19] * [GoW]UnO slaps Panzer
[21:19] [Theseus] lol
[21:20] [Panzer32] its completely true
[21:20] [[GoW]UnO] "fog of war"
[21:20] [MasterZen] plus, there's already a plethora of phrases for other colors "yellow peril" "red scourge" etc. there's nothing about black yet

[21:21] [[GoW]UnO] Please continue Theseus.
[21:21] [Theseus] Put yourselves in our place... we do not believe we can win the game with Stormia as our sole territory.
[21:21] [[GoW]UnO] Fair enough.
[21:21] [Theseus] We also have a desire to help RP survive... logical? No.
[21:22] [MasterZen] lol
[21:22] [Theseus] We also want a fun game.
[21:22] [Theseus] BRB... sorry for the delay,
[21:23] [Cort] Guys, how did you get Lego to put their asses on the line for you? That was impressive.
[21:23] [[GoW]UnO] Alright, as long as there's a delay, I'll put my kids to bed.
[21:23] [Aggie] delicate diplomacy
[21:23] [[GoW]UnO] Asses?
[21:24] [Cort] they're not all too happy about getting pulled into a war....
[21:24] [Panzer32] my blockhead connections worked very well thank you
[21:25] [MasterZen] traitor! :P

[21:25] [Panzer32] actually I had a whole explanation of the blockheads typed up and ready to post but I lost the file

[21:25] [Cort] you must have played the damsel in distress

[21:26] [Theseus] Back.
[21:26] [Theseus] The current situation is a non-starter.
[21:26] [Theseus] We have a better idea.
[21:26] [Aggie] well this is about gow/GS not lego
[21:26] [Panzer32] basically when I was (still am) King of Trafalgar, the Western Port, we sent galleys to Lego for exploration and they brought back Legolian ideals and so we started a group called the blockheads.
[21:27] [Theseus] You are mercs? We want to hire you.
[21:27] [Theseus] We think we can remove RP from Bob.
[21:27] [Aggie] what if they don't won't to go
[21:28] [MasterZen] yeah, that's a big "if"
[21:28] [Theseus] Then we are full of it... but I think it can be done. Can we have a discussion on that predicate?
[21:28] [Aggie] sure
[21:29] [[GoW]UnO] Sorry, back.
[21:30] [Theseus] Here is the heart of the offer: RP leaves. We join together, and eradicate ND (Lego and Vox involved, preferebly). You get a LOT more of Bob. Other terms TBD.
[21:30] [Theseus] How do you like THEM apples?
[21:31] [[GoW]UnO] It's worth discussing. I'll present our side of this when you are done. What does GS want out of this?
[21:35] [Theseus] A chunk of Bob. Resources, alhtough we have a bright idea about how to share. The possibility of helping RP re-build part of Spain... we know that is an emotional issue, but it is important to us. Other stuff.
[21:36] [Aggie] where would rp be allowed to rebuild
[21:36] [MasterZen] I'm sure there are a number of 1-tile tundra islands we haven't discovered yet
[21:36] [Theseus] Don't know yet...
[21:36] [[GoW]UnO] "Other Stuff" is a bit vague for my taste on attempting to finalize a proposal.

**Master Zen** · November 11, 2003, 01:23

part II

[21:37] [Theseus] UnO, we are not anywhere CLOSE to finalisin.
[21:37] [Theseus] g
[21:37] [[GoW]UnO] Can I ask something?
[21:37] [Theseus] Sure
[21:37] [[GoW]UnO] How far are you willing to go to keep RP alive?
[21:37] [Theseus] Pretty far.
[21:38] [[GoW]UnO] Not just for this conflict, but into the future as well?
[21:38] [Theseus] We are contemplating gifting them N. Stormia.
[21:38] [[GoW]UnO] We are well aware of that part.
[21:38] [[GoW]UnO] Is this a permanent protection?
[21:39] [MasterZen] or like a war-long contract like us with ND?
[21:39] [Theseus] Dunno... it is emotional at this point. IN fact, I can't even recall if it IS a contract.
[21:39] [[GoW]UnO] Fair enough.
[21:39] [Theseus] What a weird thing all of this is.
[21:40] [Theseus] Counts to me, though.
[21:40] [Aggie] this didn;t turn out like we all expected
[21:40] [[GoW]UnO] A plan only lasts until the first engagement.
[21:40] [MasterZen] -Clausewitz
[21:40] [Theseus] Bizzie-marckie.
[21:41] [Theseus] Oops, MZ is right.
[21:41] [Cort] what did you expect, Aggie?
[21:41] [Aggie] what would make you stop fighting us
[21:41] [Theseus] A partnership.
[21:41] [Aggie] i don't know this was my first MP war, but not this thats for sure
[21:41] [[GoW]UnO] Alright, let me see if I have this all straight.
[21:42] [MasterZen] look this is a personal observation, I don't trust RP at all. AT ALL. I know they will want to try and do something to hurt us later in the game. What is GS's view on this? I trust GS much more than I do RP
[21:42] [Cort] RP live ny oue say so ...
[21:42] [[GoW]UnO] 1. Gathering Storm convinces RP to leave.
[21:42] [Cort] I'll try again
[21:42] [[GoW]UnO] This frees GoW of their current Contract.
[21:42] [Theseus] I'm gonna let UnO get it all out...
[21:43] [[GoW]UnO] 2. At this point Gathering Storm Proposes that GS and GoW enter into a contract to erradicate the yellow stain.
[21:43] [Theseus] Can't help myself: ERRADICATE THE YELLOW STAIN!!!
[21:44] [[GoW]UnO] In return, Gathering Storm is offering GoW "a lot more of Bob" and "Other terms to be determined"
[21:44] [Theseus] Can't hel myself: I am willing to get much more specific.
[21:45] [Theseus] (This is turning into a pattern)
[21:45] [[GoW]UnO] Gathering Storm gets "A chunk of Bob, resources, and an opportunity to return a portion of Spain, and "other Stuff"
[21:45] [[GoW]UnO] Specific? Please. Lets hear it.
[21:46] [Theseus] Waiting for that... but first, are you amenable?
[21:46] [[GoW]UnO] Im not a dictionary...amenable?
[21:46] [[GoW]UnO] (Despite my...*cough* so very intelligent writing)
[21:46] [[GoW]UnO] (yeah right)
[21:47] [[GoW]UnO] Theseus, it is not out of the realm of possibilities at this point, no.
[21:48] [Theseus] Sorry... I'm gonna put some further deal terms on the table... if they are *decent* are you guys serious about ab possible deal?
[21:48] [[GoW]UnO] It's a bit vague to even venture a guess at whether it will be accepted.
[21:48] [MasterZen] you name 'em, we discuss them, nothing is ever outrageous, especially to GoW

[21:48] [[GoW]UnO] Lord that's the truth.
[21:48] [Theseus] Fair enough.
[21:48] [Theseus] Bear with me...
[21:48] [Theseus] Roleplay - RP's relocation is clearly mandatory. We need to negotiate the ability to return them to Spain at some point... perhaps no sooner than X turns?
[21:49] [Theseus] (Get ready for a barrage...)
[21:49] [Theseus] Lego / Vox - I'd like to see them involved as well. I've always envisioned this as a worldwide gangbang on ND.
[21:50] [Theseus] Territitory - I'd like to split Bob at the jungle.
[21:50] [Panzer32] so basically we would get the ND core
[21:51] [Theseus] Gold - You are mercs, and need to be paid. How much (wait for the sum total of terms before answering)?
[21:51] [Theseus] Techs - TBD
[21:51] [Theseus] Resources - We should guarantee to each other full access to one of each resource we together control.
[21:52] [Theseus] Military Coordination - If we can do a deal this is critically important.
[21:53] [Aggie] will there be a unified command
[21:53] [Theseus] Competion of Contract - In this case, we think it will be the destruction of ND, not just their removal from Bob.
[21:53] [[GoW]UnO] I'm personally very tired of removals.
[21:53] [Theseus] We have put some thought into this.

[21:53] [MasterZen] what if Lego gifts them a city?
[21:54] [MasterZen] just silly suggestions btw, but plausible
[21:54] [Aggie] question"if rp accepts removal but remains at war with us, will you make them make peace for ww ending purposes
[21:54] [Theseus] We would like to involve Lego as well.
[21:55] [Cort] then you'll be able to get a foothold on lego, MZ

[21:55] [Theseus] Yes, peace with RP... whatever this plan takes.
[21:55] [Theseus] BRB
[21:55] [Aggie] thats important
[21:56] [Cort] Yes, Aggie, we would insist upon that
[21:56] [MasterZen] i'd cry "exploit" if it didn't happen anyway
[21:57] [Aggie] excellent
[21:57] [Cort] We recognise we would have to keep RP in line ...
[21:57] [Aggie] well they be your pet, so you haver to clean up after them.

[21:58] [Cort] but they'd have to be offered a token themselves...
[21:58] [Cort] a feeling of security in return.
[21:58] [[GoW]UnO] We can play the prod, you play the carrot.
[21:59] [MasterZen] letting them live is a token in itself

[21:59] [Cort] Yeah, so we'd have to ask them to take down their banners howling at you guys,
[22:00] [Aggie] well actually i like those banner
[22:00] [Cort] lol
[22:01] [Cort] but they need to know that you don't want to eradicate them - as long as they're neutered.
[22:01] [MasterZen] and offshore
[22:01] [Aggie] well assure them that we don't
[22:03] [Cort] in a hypothetical future, GoW would have nothing to fear from tiny Spain,
[22:03] [Aggie] that is true
[22:03] [MasterZen] tiny Spain might get others to do their dirty work for them
[22:03] [MasterZen] tiny Spain has twisted minds
[22:04] [Cort] so MZ, do you personally want to remove them from the game?
[22:06] [MasterZen] as long as they remain not a threat, I guess I could live with it, I just happen to be a twisted mind myself so I know how other twisted minds think

[22:07] [Cort] Funny you should mention that..
[22:07] [Theseus] Uh, I have a little kitten jumping around (GS is used to this), so if I seemingly type anything weird...
[22:08] [Theseus] I think Rp can be persuaded.
[22:08] [Theseus] I think they can be given religious territory.
[22:09] [[GoW]UnO] I am going to need to get to bed soon. Theseus, I am sure will as well.
[22:09] [Theseus] I think all of us roleplaying with RP will play a part.
[22:10] [[GoW]UnO] Theseus, CortHouse, Let's see this all through.
[22:10] [Theseus] I'm gonna let UnO get it all out...[]''6666666666666666666666666666666666666666
[22:10] [Theseus] That was the kitty.
[22:10] [Theseus] 457=10.;.
[22:11] [Theseus] again
[22:11] [MasterZen] LOL!!!!!!
[22:11] [MRex] haha
[22:11] [[GoW]UnO] Now, GS is proposing that GoW retains the land above the Jungle, the land below is split between the other allies, correct?
[22:11] [Theseus] Yes
[22:11] [MasterZen] speaking of kitty, check this thread out: http://central.masterzen.net/index.p...=0&#entry39158
[22:12] [[GoW]UnO] Now, the rest of that seems either common sense (coordinated military, sharing resources) or insignificant.
[22:12] [[GoW]UnO] So, this is the real heart of the matter.
[22:12] [Theseus] UnO: I think that's pretty good for you... certainly more than under the current circumstances.
[22:12] [[GoW]UnO] Am I correct in assuming this?
[22:13] [[GoW]UnO] Now, I will present where the difficulties will arise as far as GoW is considered.
[22:13] [Theseus] Yes. But there is more, not unimportant.
[22:14] [[GoW]UnO] such as?
[22:14] [Aggie] like the following Lego sw, rp sc, Gs se
[22:14] [[GoW]UnO] What more did I miss?
[22:14] [[GoW]UnO] RP returning?
[22:16] [[GoW]UnO] The rest of it is only what is neccessary to carry out the war from what I can see, having just went through everything you posted above.
[22:16] [Theseus] No, I am sorry, Uno is entirely correct. The hinges of evrything are that RP leaves Bob and GoW attacks ND.
[22:17] [Theseus] Everything else follows from there.
[22:17] [[GoW]UnO] Now, here is where we currently stand.
[22:18] [[GoW]UnO] Gathering Storm, in our eyes, has broken a NAP with us. I am well aware we disagree here, but this is our feeling on the issue.
[22:18] [[GoW]UnO] Roleplay has broken countless agreements.
[22:18] [[GoW]UnO] Neu Demogyptica, to this point, has not borken anything.
[22:18] [[GoW]UnO] That is not to say they are not a threat.
[22:18] [Theseus] I am past all of these things.
[22:19] [Theseus] Wow, that was a big statement.
[22:19] [[GoW]UnO] The way the game currently stands, Lego has a nice chunk of land, and a nice little vassal state courtesy of GS.
[22:19] [Theseus] I think we have all been learning what counts, and what does not, in this type of game.
[22:20] [[GoW]UnO] The way you are proposing it is that GS will have a nice chunk of land, a nice little vassal state courtesy of ourselves.
[22:20] [[GoW]UnO] Both of these two forces will also have a beachhead on Bob.
[22:21] [Theseus] Tell me what YOU want.
[22:21] [[GoW]UnO] GoW may indeed have the largest land at that point, but we all know land takes time to make productive at all.
[22:21] [[GoW]UnO] OPD in a PM stated something about needing to have techs 'flow from GoW to GS' as an "act of good faith".
[22:22] [[GoW]UnO] This is out of the question at this point in time.
[22:22] * Octavian_X has joined #GoW_CoFA
[22:22] [[GoW]UnO] RP returning will be a difficult sale, frankly. I think that COULD be agreed to in the future, though.
[22:23] [Theseus] All 'deal points'. We obviously want to get to GP ASAP... we have been made aware that saltpeter is rare.
[22:24] [Theseus] This is going to come back to haunt me, personally, but I have been angling for RP's end-game stance to be sort of Tibetan.
[22:24] [[GoW]UnO] However, given how this game goes, nature has been for the teams to follow the easiest and most profitable path.
[22:24] [MasterZen] proving this game is a microcosm of real life
[22:25] [Theseus] No sh*t.
[22:25] [[GoW]UnO] At this point, that would seem to be, upon the removal of ND, for Lego/GS and their respective vassals to remove GoW (aka the EVIL BACKSTABBING mercenaries) from the game.
[22:25] [[GoW]UnO] We will need some guarantee of this not happening.
[22:25] [[GoW]UnO] At least not easily.
[22:26] [[GoW]UnO] And therefore see it only fair that a foothold of porportional size be also allocated to GoW on Stormia.
[22:26] [Theseus] Furthest thing from it... I'm not speaking for all of GS here, but I LOVE the idea of you guys being mercs.
[22:27] [Theseus] Uh... no foothold on Stormia... very different proposition.
[22:27] [Theseus] But we can provide a guarantee.
[22:27] [[GoW]UnO] Of what sort?
[22:28] [Theseus] Give me a sec to say this right...
[22:28] [[GoW]UnO] Keep in mind who you are talking to. Internal PBEMS have taught us to trust but one person. Ourselves.
[22:30] [Theseus] Responding to UnO's last comment: I am a trusting sort. Either I deal with straight-up people or not. The log covers the issue, for me.
[22:31] [[GoW]UnO] Look, I'm going to be frank and honest.
[22:31] [[GoW]UnO] You are offering us more land, I give you that.
[22:31] [Theseus] OOOH, there's a teaser... I was about to propose something, but will wait.
[22:32] [[GoW]UnO] You say 'better' land, but 'better' is all relative.
[22:32] [Theseus] I was going to propose something good.
[22:32] [MRex] so propose it

[22:32] [[GoW]UnO] We have been acting on the current contract to the best of our abilities. Changin now would be difficult.
[22:32] [Theseus] [Theseus likes negotiating with UnO... straight up stuff]
[22:33] [[GoW]UnO] [then why did it take two hours to get here?]
[22:33] [[GoW]UnO] Now, I have in our forum stated I don't think you guys are serious about this.
[22:33] [Theseus] Hand shaking.
[22:33] [Theseus] We are 100% serious.
[22:33] [[GoW]UnO] You contacted us nearly two weeks ago, and I sent several requests.
[22:34] [Theseus] My fault...RL./
[22:34] [[GoW]UnO] Yet, here you come to talk only when you are threatening our cities.
[22:34] [Theseus] Also my fault...
[22:34] [Theseus] Let me speak...
[22:34] [[GoW]UnO] You may very well take some cities as well, but you will find that we are not the kind to back down, and will go down swinging if it comes to that.
[22:35] [Theseus] UnO, I kindly ask a moment...
[22:35] [Theseus] 0

[22:35] [[GoW]UnO] We have been bold, some would say rash in our plans, and there would be no real change if this continues the way it is.
[22:35] [[GoW]UnO] Sorry, go ahead.
[22:36] [Theseus] Whoa...
[22:36] [Theseus] OK, let me organize...
[22:37] [Theseus] Moment... Amy is on the4 line.
[22:37] [Theseus] (really)
[22:39] * [GoW]UnO sets mode: +o Octavian_X
[22:39] [[GoW]UnO] Hello there Octavian. You scared me when I saw you enter.
[22:39] [[GoW]UnO] wasn't sure which team you were on.
[22:40] [Octavian_X] No one truly knows to whom I belong...

[22:41] [Octavian_X] Seriously, I would hope you know that I'm a citizen of the Gathering Storm.
[22:41] [[GoW]UnO] I didn't have my members list in front of me. Wasn't sure.
[22:41] [Aggie] well i believe you, why would one so claim if they weren't

[22:42] [[GoW]UnO] Im horrid with names.
[22:42] [Octavian_X] That's ok. all you Apolytonians are just one person to me...

[22:42] [MasterZen] I'll remember that next time we chat

[22:42] [MasterZen] j/k
[22:42] [Aggie] actually we are one person, just one very disturbed person
[22:43] [Cort] lol
[22:43] [Octavian_X] Honestly, at this point, that wouldn't suprise me...
[22:43] [MasterZen] Aggie, UnO and Panzer are all my DLs
[22:43] [Theseus] Back.
[22:43] [[GoW]UnO] I feel like it most the time.
[22:44] [[GoW]UnO] Theseus, your floor.
[22:44] [Theseus] I want to get past some of the pst animosity,
[22:45] [Theseus] [Sorry, I have a 5 week
[22:46] [Theseus] kitty attacking everything in sight]
[22:46] [[GoW]UnO] We are looking to the future, I can assure you. I don't see what you possibly can offer as a guarantee right now, but we are willing to listen.
[22:46] [Theseus] Land.
[22:46] [Theseus] The current situation is not tenable for anyone but Lego.
[22:47] [[GoW]UnO] On Bob. With Lego and GS BOTH having footholds just begging for a mutual enemy and a 'build off'
[22:47] [[GoW]UnO] Or a war.
[22:47] [Theseus] Yes.
[22:47] [Theseus] Do you expect more from ND?
[22:48] [[GoW]UnO] And how does this guarantee anything but our destruction as you and Lego kill us off?
[22:48] [Theseus] We would be offering a locked alliance,
[22:48] [[GoW]UnO] ND would be sharing our nation.
[22:48] [Theseus] ??
[22:49] [[GoW]UnO] Should the two of us be all that remained, that is.
[22:49] [[GoW]UnO] So, you are not interested in only ND, but with Lego as well.
[22:49] [Theseus] BRB
[22:50] [Theseus] Three, and then one. Unless you think something else would be more fun?
[22:51] [[GoW]UnO] ?
[22:51] [Theseus] So no, we are not asking you to commit against Lego.
[22:51] [Theseus] Everyone, what we are proposing is simple.
[22:52] [Theseus] We will evacuate RP to N. Stormia.
[22:52] [MasterZen] in summary: kill ND until they die
[22:52] [Theseus] Master of Zen? Try Master of Understatement...

[22:54] [[GoW]UnO] Trust for Trust. We are giving you a beachhead should we agree. One in return is not out of reason IMO, I fail to see what your hold up is, you are gifting much of it to RP anyway.
[22:54] [Theseus] Yes, we take down ND. Ideally (and this is just me) I'd like to do it as a worldwide gangbang... no reason, just cause.
[22:55] [Theseus] I am operating waaaaaay without charter here, UnO... beach head in N. Stormia acceptable?
[22:56] [[GoW]UnO] Is it at least negotiable?
[22:57] [Theseus] I am not sure I see the point... but yes.
[22:57] [[GoW]UnO] N stormia for S bob. Not equal SIZE but porportional. (stormia is smaller, so smaller beachhead)
[22:57] [Theseus] What complicated webs we weave...
[22:57] [[GoW]UnO] Point is naval invasion is damn near impossible, it provides SOME route should you not honor your 'locked alliance'
[22:57] [[GoW]UnO] Or whatever.
[22:59] [Theseus] We will honor such locked alliance... period. Did you you see my earlier point, btw? Locked and equal resources? I thought that a good idea.
[22:59] [[GoW]UnO] That is a good idea.
[22:59] [Theseus] There is a deal to be made here... logical, profitable, and fun.
[23:01] [Theseus] AAnd I gotta say... you brought up naval invasion... I cannot WAIT to try epic game Scandy. Seafaring rocks.
[23:02] [MasterZen] lucky those who have C3C already... :P
[23:03] [MRex] like me

[23:03] [[GoW]UnO] So, GS will discuss giving us a small beachhead in N stormia?
[23:04] [Panzer32] I'm playing Napoleonic Europe conquest... its great. I've got 4 armies that are killer.
[23:05] [Theseus] Yes. I am thinking of this as we go along, but if we do so you will be next to a very weak RP...we would would covenants that you not rape them.
[23:05] [[GoW]UnO] I know that will make some GoW members very much less pararnoid.
[23:05] [Theseus] Fine.
[23:05] [MasterZen] as long as RP doesn't pose a threat to us, we will not pose a threat to them
[23:05] [[GoW]UnO] Then, we have all this to discuss with our teams.
[23:06] [[GoW]UnO] RP off of Bob.
[23:06] [[GoW]UnO] GoW/GS attack ND, hope to include Lego.
[23:06] [[GoW]UnO] Once ND is destroyed, Land from Jungle North is GoW, south is Lego/GS
[23:07] [[GoW]UnO] RP is allowed to return eventually and GoW gets a beachhead.
[23:07] [Theseus] I would like to go futher... I see an alliance through at least a 3 team finale. Seriously, feel free to ask the Legos, I made a statement tonight that I would like to see GoW STRONGER]
[23:07] [Theseus] BRB
[23:07] [[GoW]UnO] I don't know if we can make that a deal for after the war, perhaps...
[23:09] [Theseus] We have at iming issue...
[23:09] [Theseus] timing
[23:10] [[GoW]UnO] Theseus, CourtHouse, Octavian, it is becomming late for me. I need to be off to bed, I suggest we continue this another time and take what is already here back to our teams.
[23:10] [Cort] yep - it's almost tijme for me to get up...
[23:10] [[GoW]UnO] Timing can be worked with the teams, and I am sure other issues will present themselves once this is digested.
[23:11] [[GoW]UnO] LOL, reminds me of doing the turnchats, cort.
[23:11] [Theseus] Agreed. Please note, much of which I have presented has already been discussed and approved wihtin GS. We are ready to deal.
[23:11] [[GoW]UnO] Wake up a 2AM to civ before work.
[23:12] [[GoW]UnO] I will be in touch tomorrow, Theseus, and we can schedule another chat then.
[23:12] [Theseus] Also, fyi, we have touched base with various members of Lego... if GS and GoW agree on this course of action, as far as we can tell they will join in.
[23:12] [[GoW]UnO] Gnight folks, looks like the Eagles won. btw.
[23:13] [Cort] Goodnight all ....
[23:13] [Theseus] GN
[23:13] [Aggie] goodnight
[23:13] * Cort has left #GoW_CoFA
[23:13] * [GoW]UnO has left #GoW_CoFA
[23:13] [MasterZen] goodnight
[23:13] [MasterZen] doh, too late
[23:14] * Theseus has quit IRC (Quit: )
[23:20] * Aggie has left #gow_cofa

**Hot_Enamel** · November 11, 2003, 09:37

Unortho,

--- well done on the chat

My opinions & thoughts….

Be very wary of GS.
Yes, they are the elite of the strategy forum (we are smarter & better) but they are still quite a smart bunch of guys.

We cannot let them have a beachhead on Bob. They will screw us over in an instant.
If they were serious about making it a fair game, we would be talking about joining forces against Lego, not ND.

They want a beachhead. they want ND gone to make room for everyone. Then they will want to take over all of Bob. With so much landmass, they could then compete with Lego.

What they want, is Lego/Vox vs. GS/RP.
We may be the middle guy whom both teams want to gain dominance over each other, but we would never be considered a 3rd power.
Most likely, they will remove us when they get the chance to rebuild their military.

I really did not think they would go for the beachhead on North Estonia. I am totally surprised that Theseus did not reject it outright.

Please consider this…
RP hates us. If we allow them to live, they will do everything in their power to conspire against us. Most of GS hate us…I don’t believe that Theseus is a true reflection of their full memberships opinion of us. They have said many times over in the forums, thatthey can never trust GoW. We break every agreement we have ever held with them.

So….
To be honest, I would truly like to see them to attack and lose most of their knights this turn. We will lose units as well, but they should lose more.
We destroy most of their military, and we can then send them home limping.

If this was my PBEM, I would send them something like this before the next chat.

Theseus, we appreciate your upfront attempt at the chat last night.
Unfortunately, our team still has some concerns and grievances that we need to discuss/settle.

1. GS broke our NAP. (We can agree to disagree on this matter)
2. GS backstabbed us. While we were negotiating a “gangbang” on Roleplay, the forces you were amassing to attack Roleplay was then used against us.
3. One of GS’s biggest beef with Vox, was that GS had to waste their entire GA on military to crush Vox. Because of GS’s interference in the Roleplay war, it has taken many more turns and a much bigger military buildup that we expected. Instead of a quick war against RP, the war has been drawn out, and we blame GS for GoW having to waste their GA on military
4. We find it very difficult to believe that your views are a correct reflection of the views from the rest of your team. Anybody can reread the Spite & Malice threads to get an indication of GS’s true perception of GoW. With so much hatred for our team, we find it difficult to believe that you are willing to simple bury the past and work together in the future.
5. Have a reread of Vels thread. He has made it quite clear that the game is no longer about winning, but more about honour and rebuilding RP to its former glory. Again, must we just take your word that this is no longer true ?
6. Even if you convince us that your current active membership has a different view of GoW, what guarantees do we have that your older membership will return with their old grudges against us ?
7. You dare demand that we gift you all of our tech to make a show of good faith ? From our perspective, it is NOT GoW who needs to show good faith.
8. All of your plans demand that RP remains within the game. GS hates us… but the attitude from RP is tenfold against GoW. We have plenty of PM’s which clearly states how much RP wants to hurt GoW. How can you expect us to leave team alive in this game, who will obviously conspire against us for the rest of the game. If you don’t believe us, read the sig on Bigfree’s next post in the ISDG.
9. GS has shown that they are willing to exploit some of the games mechanics. An example of such is the warping of units. But the most recent example is a credible threat we have received that if we don’t agree to certain terms from RP, that RP will get a city from GS, and maintain a perpetual war against GoW and cripple our economy. We have been told that GS will go along with this plan from RP and protect the last RP city on Estonia. Again, GoW finds this as an abuse of the game mechanics, and are in disbelief that GS would even consider it.
10. The odds are, that The Alamo & Yellowknife will fall to your knights. It is our belief, that ND and our reinforcements should take back The Alamo, and our core cities in the North will never be taken. So..you are yet to really threaten us. We don’t see any reason why yours and RP’s demands require so much concession from GoW. GS chose to butt in on our war. We gave you warning of it so that you would not interfere.
11. Theseus already admits, that GS cannot win the game from their current position; they need GoW help against ND and Bob land. GS admit they know that they got screwed on the resource allocation. So what incentive does GoW get for giving you what you need so that the most powerful nation in the world can get even more powerful.

So… given all of the above, you must understand why we feel slighted when it is demanded that.
1. We must show the sign of good faith and give you our techs
2. We must allow RP to live and possible return to their homeland.
3. We must allow you access to resources you are lacking
4. We must allow you land & a beachhead on Bob
5. We must allow Lego land & a beachhead on Bob.
6. We must take the biggest risk against a backstab against ND (Everyone else’s core cities are on a different continent and not bordering ND)
7. Lego has a voxian vassal, GS has a RP vassal, Gow has ??? a shared continent with the two most powerful nations in the game ?

We are mercs….we can be bought. But we will not bend over, and allow GS to screw us over yet again.

As a sign of good faith from GS…and allow us to fulfil or contract with ND, why doesn’t GS remove its forces back to Estonia.
Allow us to destroy RP.
Allow us to receive payment from ND, and the division of land.

We do have concerns that ND will backstab us. But if this occurs, we will allow you and Lego free access through our territory, while we meet ND head on. (A fight we believe we could win)

Once this is done, then we can talk about contracts & alliances.
And you must trust us on this… we fear other teams more than GS. We will be looking for a contract from you …such as we were attempting to do before the RP war.

Unotho … You could edit and send the above as a team response… or just send it as an example of one of the GoW members feelings towards GS. Remind them that this is not a team response, and the member only gets one vote.

Regs

**Hot_Enamel** · November 11, 2003, 09:43

PS... excuse the grammer and spelling.
Its 12:45am and I cant be bothered checking it.

**UnOrthOdOx** · November 11, 2003, 09:51

It's frankly more polite than what I was about to send:

Lux threatens us: Lux dies
RP Threatens us: RP is about to die
Gs Threatens us now with troops outside our cities...

Not really, just what I would LIKE to send.

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GS chat outline, suggestions etc

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