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Holding Arashi 9

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  • Holding Arashi 9

    I've been running simulations, and I think we can almost guarantee Arashi 9 doesn't fall this next turn, even against 11 Immortals. We take pretty heavy losses, but then again so do they.

    The thing is, we only have 3 Pikes there, and they are unfortified. The way the RNG works... those 3 pikes could take out the whole stack, or might not even dent the Immortals. On average they kill 1 each, and then hurt the next rather badly. With just 1 more Pike, the odds swing drastically in our favor. 'Runs' are much less drastic over 16 hps than 12 it seems. They still happen, but on average things are much more 'expected' with 4 Pikes.

    To get our 4th Pike there we have to rush it. I'm not sure how the preferences work in PBEM... does it go by what's saved in the game, or by what the player's settings are at at that point? If we can set it up so that our first unit build takes us to the city, we can then go and rush other projects (granted we waste shields this way, but in this case I think it's worth it).

    We will have 137g from commerce, do we get the 200 gold from ND before or after the production is gone over? The commerce will be added before the production gets done.

    If we can get into the city view, in Arashi, the Pike costs ~80g to rush. If we put everything we have in the area onto Arashi 9, it guarantees they can't bust through. They could get lucky and have ~8 Immortals left (worst case I've run into with 4 Pikes), but they wouldn't be on Arashi 9 regardless of whether they 'won' or 'lost'. That gives us enough time to get more troops together to fight for Arashi, especially if they take the time to heal up (and most of their Immortals need it).

    So what we need on Arashi 9 are the 4 Pikes, all our Swords in the area, and all our WC's. I've only twice gotten to where the WC's defend, and only 1 at that (it once killed an Immortal...but that won't happen often best we can hope for is the retreat (50/50)).

    Worst Case (that I ran into...about 50 runs): 8 Immortals left at various stages of health. Lose 1 WC, all but one of our Swords, and all our Pikes. We would lose Arashi most likely.

    Average Case: 4-6 Immortals left at various stages of health. 1-2 Pikes at low health, 1-3 Swords at low health, and all our WC's left. We win this war if the average holds.

    Best Case: 2 Immortals left at low health. 3 Pikes (Elite's) left at various levels of health, 3 Swords left at various levels of health, and all our WC's. And a Leader (3 times out of all the runs).

    When using only 3 Pikes, we sometimes get close to the best case, but there are a lot more 'worst case' type outcomes. If at all possible, that 4th Pike..

    For the record... I was using all veteran Immortals in my tests, I don't remember the exact makeup, but some of them are regs. So the odds should favor us more if they do try to bust through Arashi 9. I was somewhat suprised to see how badly the Pikes did, normally getting killed by the second Immortal. I have never really built pikes in a game (rarely spears or even riflemen) so this is definitely a learning experience.

  • #2
    Another thought, on how to keep Hurricane safe...

    If we can get into the city view and rush the last 7 shields of Tornado's WC, and then switch to a Pike it would finish if we have 10+ shields per turn there this turn. Only costs 28 gold + WC for the Pike, and would be in time to help defend Hurricane.

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    • #3
      It depends, as nye said, on whether the settings are set to "always build previous unit", or not. If not, we have two chances to get into cityy view, and change the orders (although I haven't done it yet in MP, I'm quite certain it will be possible to rush, there is no reason why it would be different then a single SP turn)

      The pike rushed seems a good idea with those odds, however isn't the worker going to finish the road this turn? I somehow had that impression. In that case, those pikes are fortified...

      I think it will pay of in the end if we can keep A9, instead of needing to defend Arashi instead. I'm willing to risk a 4th pike, instead of going for the walls.

      BTW, if Vox moves onto worked tiles, we should be able to compensate for the shields by going into city view, and scrolling cities too.

      DeepO

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      • #4
        As NYE pointed out to me in chat last night, the fortified bonus doesn't kick if you've moved that turn. I didn't know that... maybe Vox doesn't know that... so hopefully they will think they are fortified (the units will look that way) and be less likely to attack.

        Our best bet is if they bypass Arashi, giving us more time to build up forces, and giving us free shots on the flats with our WC's and possibly Med Inf in some situations. Their best shot to hurt us by trying to force their way through Arashi 9 this turn.

        If they beat us at Arashi 9, I don't think the walls in Arashi would help us much at all. If we hold at Arashi 9, they can't get to Arashi. So I agree, the walls there aren't critical.

        If we don't go for a Pike, and can switch Arashi's production, the next best thing would be a Catapult. It basically gives our first Pike Elite status. Either it hits the attacker, or it uses up a 'bad' roll (not sure how bad... but it should cover all the 'attacker wins' rolls, even if it covers some of the 'defender wins' rolls too) for us, so that the first attacker will hit the Pike less.

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        • #5
          Tornado is now switched to a medieval infantry (I thought of it right when I was ready to send the turn), but the same concept holds if we can switch to a WC, short rush, and then switch to a pike.

          Regarding Arashi, could we not rush the walls and then switch to a pike before finishing the build if we get a chance to tinker at all? That would reduce the cost of switching to a pike from 80 to 40, right?

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          • #6
            Wow... it doesn't? I knew it didn't count if you used 'fortify all' on already moved units, but single units, with partially movement points remaining? That is quite some news to me!

            I'm pretty sure Vox doesn't know this, OTOH, would it really make a difference in case there are only 3 pikes present? I think I would take my chances with 13 immortals against 3 pikes, fortified on mountains. Intuitively, that sounds like a good deal.

            Add the (fake fortified) med infs and swords, and intuitively, I would back off, that would seem too much. but Vox? I don't know... they would still outnumber us 2 to 1.

            DeepO

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            • #7
              Nathan, as long as it produces 10 shields, a short rush is best, of course. It would have the same effect. Let's hope we can get into city view, while enough gold has already been added to our treasury. But indeed, instead of a walls, I would prefer a catapult too (pike being best)

              DeepO

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              • #8
                By the way, Vox's stack of eight was half vet and half regular. Their three immortals in the smaller stack are all vets. So odds should be a bit better for us than what Aeson's testing showed.

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                • #9
                  Maybe we could go with the catapult in Monsoon and a Pike in Arashi?

                  I was just running some tests with only 3 regular Immortals and it looks a lot better. Average seems to be we keep 1 more unit, they lose 1 or 2 more units. (I did have a freak one where they had 9 units live, and another where we won every single battle... let us pray!)

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                  • #10
                    Do we see where Vox moved its units to before we need to decide on a catapult in Monsoon? In general, I agree that it is the best lace to rush a cat, but only if it is possible to get him out in one piece. If Vox moves their smaller stack onto the road, and their smaller stack next to A9, we probably can't attack the small stack with full force. In that case, our cat maybe can't get to A9, so that it has a lot less value to us.

                    In case Vox moves both stacks close to A9, a rushed cat would be a help, and one that can get us to hammer their units for as long as they are in our territory.

                    DeepO

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                    • #11
                      It would show up in the city view if they were in the way DeepO (let's hope they are, because then we only have to defend against 8 Immortals).

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                      • #12
                        I was rather thinking on seeing them in the general map, before seeing the city view, but inside the city view would work too.

                        It's a mixed blessing to get two stacks. It would mean we can almost certainly keep A9, but lose Monsoon...

                        DeepO

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                        • #13
                          If Vox tries for Monsoon, my inclination would be to hit them while we have a chance and hope our three (possibly four if we can switch production and short rush in time) pikes can hold. Our wounded troops can get back to Arashi the turn after, and upgrading the swords will heal them. If the early WC attacks look like we won't be able to save Monsoon, we could cut our losses and move the cat out across the hills if Vox isn't on a road; if they are, rushing a cat would be iffier.

                          If Vox is blocking the way between Monsoon and Arashi, we'll be able to see it from Monsoon's city view.

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                          • #14
                            Aeson, I'm a little confused... do you mean two turns hence, and assuming that all the Immortals dogpile onto the mountain 89 from Arashi?
                            The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                            Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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                            • #15
                              Yes, they could have 11 Immortals on 89 of Arashi next turn.

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